Dave, funny you say that as here you can use the forum to prove to us that there is nothing shady going on at PBP..

Providing the HH's will allow you to do just that..

(sic)

I'd rather go with Julius Caesar who divorced his wife, arguing that "Caesar's wife must be above suspicion".

I think that the onus probandi is on the site to prove or at least provide the methods to prove its innocence in this case, rather than to dismiss the issue and ask for evidence of guilt without providing the possible means to that evidence.

Wow.... cheating scandal then the guys with access resign and these jokers are insisting 'nothing to see here, move along'.

Great thread guys. A lot of people find 2+2 from pros to recreational players. I can't thank everyone enough, especially the 2+2 veterans who post in these threads and give some balance/offer to mediate for their contribution to the poker community. Avoiding sites that won't even make an effort to prove their innocence in the face of simple requests is something all players should do.

*FPB* can join *FUB* now imo.

good catch

Although the HH’s are necessary to prove things one way or another I believe my email correspondence with Dave Brenes is a relevant piece of evidence. Summary of correspondence follows:

14th dec – me: first email asking for pitbull to investigate certain players I suspected of suspicious play

16th dec: pitbull support: support replies there is no collusion

16th dec: me: I respond saying I don’t think collusion, but more like they can see my cards. Can he send me their hand histories

17th dec: dave brenes: assures me players cannot hack their servers. Cannot give me their hands but can give me mine

17th dec: me. Great pls send me my hands

18th dec: ok which dates?

18 dec: me - I reply with relevant dates

18 dec: dave: - sorry we it will take a few days

22 dec: dave – sorry the tech crew are on holiday, wont be able to get hands until 5 jan

10 jan: me – I don’t have my hands, pls send asap

12 jan: dave – sorry more tech issues, new system means it will take a few more days

9 Feb: - me: been a month, where are the hands?

12 Mar: me – I email pitbull support asking whats happening

17 mar – dave: replies that db manager was unable to make room for the request and now has heavy task load blah blah blah

29 April: me – I’m still waiting

27 May: me – I write final snotty email saying I found his silence very damning

He doesn’t respond..

Some questions that come to mind:

- Why was correspondence so quick in beginning and then dragged into months to get replies until they dried up altogether?

- Why did a simple request get so muddled up?

- Why did it require Pitbull support to get him to respond to my repeated queries?

- Why did he quit responding altogether when he said he would get back to me later in the week and what can we infer from his silence?

- Is it just me or do his excuses look like fictional ones to keep me at bay?

- Why did he say my request was a simple one in the beginning of correspondence and he now says it is impossible?

Email correspondence follows: (read from bottom up)




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Brent Mills [mailto:brentgraeme@gmail.com]
Sent: 27 May 09 08:09 PM
To: 'Dave Brenes'
Subject: RE: Hand History



Dear Mr Brenes,

It has now been 6 months since my initial request to get my hand history files and I’m sure you will agree that this length of time to wait for a simple request is more than a little ridiculous. As you know I want to examine those files for suspicious play by the players I mentioned in the previous email. By not responding it kind of reinforces my belief that they were cheats.


Anyway please just send them asap

Regards

Brent


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Brent Mills [mailto:brentgraeme@gmail.com]
Sent: 29 April 09 12:00 AM
To: 'Dave Brenes'
Subject: RE: Hand History



Still waiting….




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Dave Brenes [mailto:dave@pitbullgaming.com]
Sent: 17 March 09 11:41 PM
To: brentgraeme@gmail.com
Subject: Hand History



Hi Brent,



My deepest apologies but the DB Manager was never able to make room for your request since there was always something happening that prevented him to do it. The request is made, however we lost the DB manager and another programmer in less than a week, thus our organizational structure and the task load has been forced to be redistributed altering the course of requests and pending projects. I will give my absolute dedication to follow up on your request but I need to deal with an unexpected issue that is putting to wait all my tasks related to the IT department. I hope to give you more answer during the week. Cheers!



Regards,



Dave Brenes

Network Manager

Pitbull Gaming

www.pitbullgaming.com

-----------------------------------






--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Brent Mills [mailto:brentgraeme@gmail.com]
Sent: 12 March 09 01:04 PM
To: 'support@pitbullpoker.com'
Subject: no reply from support



Dear Pitbull,



I first contacted support back in December to request that my hand histories be emailed to me. Dave Brenes assured me that the database guy would get them to me in due course. He never did and subsequent emails to Dave asking what’s happening have been ignored.



I’ve reached the point where I’m very irritated with the service received and would like this issue resolved immediately. Below this email is all the email correspondence I’ve had, but the gist is that I want all my hand history files from 16th November 2008 – 20th November 2008.(I played $10/20 limit holdem and my username is Rapala.) If it’s easy to get absolutely all of my play then that would be preferential.



Thanks and Regards

Brent

Previous correspondence:



-----Original Message-----
From: Brent Mills [mailto:brentgraeme@gmail.com]
Sent: 11 February 09 08:41 PM
To: 'Dave Brenes'
Subject: RE: PitbullPoker


Hello Dave,


It's a month since our last correspondence, please let me know what is happening with my request.


Regards

Brent

-----------------------------------------------------------

-----Original Message-----

From: Dave Brenes [mailto:dave@pitbullgaming.com]

Sent: 12 January 09 10:48 PM

To: 'Brent Mills'

Subject: RE: PitbullPoker



Hi Brent,



Sorry for taking this long to reply to your email. I have spoken with the

data base guy, he is trying to wrap up your report but it seems we

experienced some tech issues with our system and it took the majority of his

time and after this he was assigned to complete a new reporting system which

will delay some of his previous tasks. It doesn't mean he won't do it, means

he will work at a slow pace as it is only him behind the data base reports.



I hope you understand our situation here. Thanks for your time and patience.

Cheers!



Regards,



Dave Brenes


---------------------------------------------------------

-----Original Message-----

From: Brent Mills [mailto:brentgraeme@gmail.com]

Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 8:52 AM

To: dave@pitbullgaming.com

Subject: RE: PitbullPoker



Hi Dave,



I haven't yet received the files from the database administrator. Could you

possibly let him know this is still an issue for me and I would like to get

them asap.



Thanks very much



Brent



Ps: As I said before everything from 16th Nov to 20th Nov would be fine but

if it's easy to do then my entire history from October to November would be

even better.


----------------------------------------------

-----Original Message-----

From: Dave Brenes [mailto:dave@pitbullgaming.com]

Sent: 22 December 08 09:05 PM

To: Brent Mills

Subject: RE: PitbullPoker


Hi Brent,


I will make the request to the Database Administrator, you understand this

is an uncommon query we normally don't handle so I ask you to be patient.

Currently the tech crew is our for the holidays so the guys in charge of

getting these sort of reports will not be back until the 5th of January or

so. He will look into your request once he comes back. Cheers!


Best regards,


Dave Brenes


---------------------------------------------------

> Hi Dave, everything from the 16th Nov to the 20th Nov would be great.(I

> haven't played since then).


> thanks


> _____--------------------------------------

>

> From: Dave Brenes [mailto:dave@pitbullgaming.com]

> Sent: 18 December 2008 05:00 PM

> To: 'Brent Mills'

> Subject: RE: PitbullPoker



> Hi Brent,

> Just from that day, or since that day?


> Back on November 30th we did an archive cycle, so the hand histories from

> the 30th and before are not available from the admin system. It will take

> me

> a few days to fetch them and be able to send them to you. Cheers!

>

> Regards,


> Dave Brenes




--------------------------------------------------

> From: Brent Mills [mailto:brentgraeme@gmail.com]

> Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2008 4:19 AM

> To: 'Dave Brenes'

> Subject: RE: PitbullPoker


> Thanks, please could you send me my hand histories from the 20th November.

> (username: Rapala)


> Regards

> Brent

>
> _____---------------------------------

>
> From: Dave Brenes [mailto:dave@pitbullgaming.com]

> Sent: 17 December 2008 07:13 PM

> To: 'Brent Mills'

> Subject: RE: PitbullPoker

>
> Hi Brent,

>
> Sure, we can send you your hand history, please send me the specific dates

> you want to review so we can narrow down the specific range of hands you

> want to review. Cheers!

>

> Regards,

> Dave Brenes

>

______________________

From: Brent Mills [mailto:brentgraeme@gmail.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 10:17 AM
> To: 'Dave Brenes'
> Subject: RE: PitbullPoker
>>>
> Hi Dave,
>>
> Thanks for your reply. I understand your position of violating privacy
> if you sent me their hands. If you are able to send my hand histories
> then this would be appreciated. I know that I can see past hands on
> the website but using the site to quickly scan hands is slow and
> laborious so if you are able to send me a file with a couple hundred
> of my latest hands it would be great.
>>
> Thanks and regards
>>
> Brent
>>
> _____
>
> From: Dave Brenes [mailto:dave@pitbullgaming.com]
> Sent: 17 December 2008 06:10 PM
> To: brentgraeme@gmail.com
> Cc: 'Jordan / PitbullGaming'
> Subject: RE: PitbullPoker
>
> Hi Brent,
>>
> I am pleased to meet you, my name is Dave Brenes and I help Jordan and
> the guys running the operations here. Jordan asked me to look after
> your case as I normally look on these sort of issues and I am more
> familiar with the situation.
>>
> Regarding your last email, I can understand how frustrating it could
> be when players don't make sense on their play (I play poker myself
> too), yet the members you mentioned would not have been able to do
> such a thing as hacking into our system and into our database to
> collect such information. Our security double key encrypted system
> cannot be bypassed, plus the internal password is updated constantly
> and we run a system check for every query made to the server. In no
> case the game can be accessed and, furthermore, cannot display on
> screen the cards of the other players.
>>
> Additionally, your request to obtain the hand histories of the
> involved players cannot be fulfilled. It would be a violation to our
> Privacy Agreement, in which we commit to respect every player's right
> to keep their cards unknown, and such agreement applies to all members
> of our poker room including you. To maintain the integrity of our game
> and our company we must respect the privacy of the players and if they
> did not show their cards at any moment we cannot, under any
> circumstance, display them publicly to any third party. We can only
> send you the hand history of your play with your cards and the cards
> that were shown either by decision of the player or in the showdown.
>>
> Rest assured that the players you mentioned and any other do not have
> the capability to access our servers and see such sensitive information.
>>
> Feel free to contact us if you need anything else. Thank you.
>>
> Regards,
>>>
> Dave Brenes
>
------------------------------------------------>
> From: Brent Mills [mailto:brentgraeme@gmail.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 1:26 PM
> To: 'Jordan Pitbull Poker'
> Subject: RE: PitbullPoker
>>
> Hi Jordan,
>>
> Thank you for you response. I didn't actually think the players I
> mentioned were colluding with each other, more that they have somehow
> hacked the system and can actually see my holecards. I would
> appreciate it if you could send me a hand history from their
> perspective to see if they were folding strong hands when I had
> stronger ones or whether they were playing legitimately. As I
> mentioned in the previous email these guys just never ever paid me off
> which is totally bizarre in limit hold'em.
>
> The other player I forgot about that I suspect is 'Warmachine'. The
> last session I played was at 16:00 on the 20th November so if you
> could send me Izaak or Warmachines hand history from that day it would
> set my mind at rest.
>>
> Thanks and regards
>>
> Brent
>>> _____
>
> From: Jordan Pitbull Poker [mailto:jordan@pitbullpoker.com]
> Sent: 16 December 2008 07:34 PM
> To: brentgraeme@gmail.com
> Subject: PitbullPoker
>>
> Hello Mr. Mills
>>
> Thank you for your report on a possible collusion case at the tables,
> we always appreciate such efforts from our clients to maintain our
> poker room's integrity in optimal condition.
>>
> Our Fraud and Security Department ran a check on the players you
> mentioned and we found no connection between the player accounts, no
> IP Addresses related or any pattern that reflects unfair or fraudulent
> game play. There are some times when a group of players that met on
> the poker room would share a common behavior, much like friends share
> likes and dislikes, and will try to play same tables together, and
> even play against the same people, but it does not necessarily means they are engaging in collusion.
> In our system two players sharing connection will not be able to enter
> the same tables or tournaments, furthermore, we also monitor the daily
> activity in search for suspicious activity to maintain a constant
> security check on all transactions and games.
>>
> We will continue to watch these players for a while to make sure they
> will not be involved in illegal activities in our poker room.
>>
> Let us know if you have further questions, you are welcome to contact
> us at any time.
>
> Jordan Nixon
>> Operations Manager
> jordan@pitbullpoker.com
>> www.pitbullpoker.com

> www.pitbullcasino.com
>> www.pitbullgaming.com

________________________________________
From: Brent Mills [mailto:brentgraeme@gmail.com]
Sent: 14 December 08 06:17 PM
To: 'problems@pitbullpoker.com'
Subject: suspected cheats

Dear Pitbull,

About 2 months ago I signed up for the 100% rakeback propping offer your site advertises. Having experienced very low traffic with these sorts of offers before, I was pleasantly surprised to find that when I'd sit ($10/$20 limit holdem), I'd usually have hu or 3 way action within 10 minutes or so. Things were going ok against the unknowns who'd sit but I started getting very very frustrated with a group of 3 regulars who I'd most often play with. When I first started playing them my initial impression was that they were weak tight beginners. they'd sit and check fold 10 hands in a row and then make some random donk bets and of course I'd fold because that bet has to mean something. They confirmed this image of terrible players on 3 occasions where I had 2 pair/ top pair, and they just called me on the river with the nut flush on an unpaired board. 1 guy did this once and another did this twice. of course i was delighted by such ******ed play and was licking my chops for the big profits to come from them.

Being weak tight is one thing but they NEVER EVER paid me off. if i had top pair it'd be an instant check/fold, sometimes i'd get called on turn but they'd always fold the river. then somehow they'd always put me under huge pressure with their donk bets. they sometimes donk when i had air and must fold but they'd also donk when i have middle pair, I'd call down sometimes and be shown a better hand 100% so I just stopped calling with middle pair. occasionally i had top pair and raise or call down only to be shown a better hand.
I started getting very suspicous of these 3 players and really started looking for a single instance of them calling me down with a worse hand. it never happened. the other weird thing is that there was never any players at the $10/20 table when i arrived, the action would always only start after i arrived. If i stood up, then the others would immediately stop playing and leave, if i sat down then they'd reappear within 5 minutes.
I've made good money on other sites and have never felt like a target until i joined this site, and a target of people who should be my targets from the way they play.

My suspicions that they can see my holecards have become so great that I felt the only thing to do was withdraw my remaining funds.

I would appreciate it if you could investigate these players hand histories to see if you can find instances where they folded good hands on the end where it’s impossible for any normal player to find a fold. Eg: they had top pair but I have 2 pair. My player id is: Rapala and the players I suspect are Isaak, Adebowale and Copperhead.

I look forward to hearing if you find any proof of wrongdoing.

Thanks and Regards

Brent

completely agree, that reply while long does not convince me anything. Instead, just whole bunch of bs excuses for not satisfying a simple request of giving user some hand history like all the other major sites would easily comply. This is a site that I would not consider putting money in.

Pbdave said:

FYP

Suspects:

Dave Brenes
DB manager
Programmer

I played on pitbull quite a while back but not extensively enough to make any allegations of my own. I wouldn't be surprised but I also agree with Dave in the fact that fish can catch lucky and build a roll off of $10 freeplay and play it like its playmoney. I know I ran $10 up to $400 in a few hours but the play was very weird.

HH=clarity and at this point probably evidence of more online poker fraud/cheating.

Dave, you admit to not being very technologically inclined but you keep assuring everyone that these things aren't possible even though you and your company are not capable of compiling 1000 hands of hand history let alone catch a hacker/super user.

Of course you have to come out with policy yada yada yada and you basically keep repeating yourself.

Get 1000 hands. If someone is folding a set vs flush one hand and calling with bottom pair the next something is suspicous even though the players in the game aren't sharing an IP address.

LOL-

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/28...1/index20.html

post on othere thread with hands reviewed by Dave himself.

i started this thread with almost no interest but now i believe the OP. Whoever this guy posting for PB is should be fired imo.

Cainer is a long time prop as well, and I am sure plenty can vouch for him as a player and honest person.

lol at pitbull poker jumping around this issue. Hope they have unemployment in whatever country you live in Dave.

This dave guy is the network manager? he sounds like an 8th grader trying to explain something he doesnt understand. And yes, he sounds too dumb to actually be a part of this.

Dave three things:

1) I know databases. I work for a cel phone company and querying for specific data takes time but its doable. It certainly doesnt take a competent programmer more than a day TOPS.

2) Ok so youre not a crook. And perhaps the people you work with are not crooks.
But.. perhaps someone out there is actually a crook? youre software seems WEAK from what weve seen and youve said yourself. IMO weak=vulnerable.

3) Hire someone to write for you from now on. Cause youve just made a fool out of yourself and your site in a few paragraphs.


Lord Im so glad I never put my money in there.

Edit:

What the hell?? how are these people in business?
watch this crap http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHvNDsGjys8
Read.. http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...6&postcount=98
Please do read! WTF?????

+1


Some pretty appalling statements made by Dave itt

In which case I apologise. Like so much at Pitbull, it seemed too good to be true...

PITBULL,

Why don't you just have one of your super users sit at a table so they can provide us with future hand histories?

Pbdave said:


Quote:
I want to quote Cainer who created an account yesterday and has only posted in this thread who has been the ONLY one who understand how the process works:

FYP

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Last edited by cause'n'effect; Today at 09:35 PM.


For what it's worth I've known Cainer for several years and he isn't a Pitbull shill. I don't want to scroll back and find his post but I think his point was the software is so bad that it's possible they really can't produce the hand histories.

This is something interesting:

I was doing a little browsing to see if I could find anything more on the company dimensus limited that owns pitbull.

Looking here is shows some info on the company such as address.

http://dataopedia.com/pitbullpoker-com

On another site that sells credit information on companies I was looking at available documents. I didn't buy any of them because I am cheap but I did notice that it lists the company status as "dissolved".

http://www.creditgate.com/search/sea...BT=Full%20Data

Now I know what that means but I don't know how up to date or accurate a site like this is, but I do certainly find it interesting.

Sometimes you catch-and-release. Sometimes your bait gets eaten by a turtle. Sometimes a fish flips around in the boat and his fin cuts your ankle. I hate it when that happens.

Yep, and obviously there are more pirates in dangerous waters too, like Dutch Boyd and potripper

+1

Same goes for pigbot.

The only thing i agreed on with pitbull Dave is that u cant send the third partys hole cards to just anyone that requests them.

I am just as curious as everyone else is to see where this subject leads to. After reading Rapalas emails with Pitbull dave, it looks like Pitbull dave has to honour his requests. We all seen it where pitbull dave says he will get it done for him and 9 months later, he still hasnt kept his promise.

Pitbull Dave says it can still be done, but, it now will take a long time to do this and that he doesnt have the manpower or the time now to do such a thing. To XXXXing bad. You guys at Pitbull made the promises in the first place and if it now costs u xxx amount of dollars to do it, its not the customers fault(Rapala)

U guys at Pitbull made the man a promise and now u are renegging on that promise.

I for one would like to see some of these hands in questioned. The longer Pitbull and Dave refuse these hands, the more i am leaning towards siding with Chester and Rapala.

I do not play at Pitbull due to all the complaints on the forum of it being bad software.
What i ment in my post on the hand histories is that no poker site will send u
hand histories with the other players hands turned over, unless they were shown at showdown.

So, if Rapala or Chester were requesting this information, then, all i was trying to say is that i am not surprised that Pitbull poker refused this request.

However, after saying that, if they did request just normal hand history's of hands they played, then that request should be honoured and should still be honoured 9 months later.

Sorry for any confusion.

Thanks for volunteering to do this, suzzer. Good luck with it.

This times 10000x. Dave are you ***** serious dude? Every time you post you look more and more guilty. It is absolutely RIDICULOUS that players request THEIR OWN HAND HISTORIES and they don't get them after months. You come up with excuse after excuse and dodge your way out of every situation.

You also claim there is no way anyone can be a super user, but you claim the guy who programs for you just quit at the same time all this sht went down. SERIOUSLY? It's so hard to keep a web of lies going. Your house of cards is quickly falling all around you and is about to go up in flames

To everyone at 2p2: Can we please get a programmer to make something to retrieve the hand histories? I've never played pitbull but by the sounds of it, even if there is a program, it might be difficult to get the HH's since the site is so slow/poorly made.

This whole thing is just mind blowing. I've never seen such a customer service rep make posts that further promote his/the sites guiltiness.

Also, my gut was that dave or one of his friends had a super user account somewhere. I know there's no proof, but I don't see why he goes to such lengths to dodge giving the HH's. If I helped run a site, and some kid went behind my back to make a super user account, I would spend day and night figuring out who it was and getting the proof so I could get rid of him. Dave's lack of compliance with 2p2 makes it seems like he is trying to cover for himself.