You'll see from numbers of other posts that there have been some very lengthy delays lately. You should stop e-mailing them, thereby adding to their backlog, and simply wait for their reply. Hopefully, that won't take them another few weeks.

Just because the player pool is anonymous to you, and me, and Joe Six Pack, does not mean that the player pool is anonymous to the Pai Wang Luo Network. They can see who everyone is. They can see who is winning and losing money to who that money is lost.

Also, remember, we are 20+ years into online poker at this point; there are tools that exist which can sniff out odd associations between players automagically, algorithmic scoring systems if you will, that help pluck odd behavior out of the void.

"Anonymous" tables do not hide anything from security. In fact, I think the job of security is made easier because people who are prone to cheat, do so more openly thinking "hey, it's anonymous and I can chip dump easily on the zone tables to my "random friend" when we are assigned the same table"... except that they know that you know that we know that blah blah blah :P

--
Kahn

Brad Owen is fairly popular Vlogger and he now wears the PKC Poker logo on this shirt. I think Bart Hanson does as well on LATB.

Has anyone used this app successfully? Is it shady? I downloaded PKC and it's very confusing. I think bitcoin is the only way to fund your account I don't have that.

Just curious what people think of this Chinese gaming app.

Thanks and Happy 4th!

-Jonathan

I highly question the accuracy and effectiveness of these algorithms if they can't even detect the obvious bots that plague these sites. Or is it that they can detect them and choose not to remove them?

Why on Earth would a site choose to keep bots?

It is bad for business if customers suspect it. Anyone, human, bot, alien, etc who wins anything from the poker economy is a negative to a site looking to maximize rake.

Obligated by who? lol

I don't even know of any regulated sites that would be "obligated" to provide IP info for a user request.


--
Kahn

You suggested they have these sophisticated algorithms which can detect even the slightest amount of impropriety, yet these sites still have plenty of bots on them. Some have hundreds of them. Either the algorithms you mention are likely not as accurate and effective as you suggest or they are choosing not to remove the bots for whatever reason.

I guess it's possible that you're suggesting they have super algorithms for detecting collusion while they still have primitive algorithms for detecting botting. I think that would be foolish to just believe without proof. We do have proof that bots infest these sites. I won't just assume that their collusion detection is much better.

Hey guys, im new to 2+2 forum unfortunately
well known in Runet community

could you please recommend with thread better use for post about scammers on PPPoker?

Just use the PPP thread, please.

You presume Ignition is infested with bots. I disagree with your premise. I have seen no proof to back that up.

Furthermore, the "infestation" of bots is indeed overblown from a population density perspective as far as I am concerned. I believe bots, bots bots hysteria is an excuse for piss poor players to justify their losses. We get emails from people like this, who couldn't play their way out of a wet paper bag, all the time as a matter of fact!

Sure, bots exist, but they are not the reason someone can't beat online poker, and defaulting to the idea that bots are "infesting" everything is plain silly.

--
Kahn

First of all, of course you haven't seen the proof because nobody knows how infested Bodog/Bovada/Ignition's games are because the games are anonymous. What you can do to a get a little bit of an idea is to read the bot forums and see how easy or hard the sites make it for the botters to set up shop. You will find multiple bot sites that list their security as low or poor. You can also see how many downloads they get for updates.

Second of all, it's not overblown by any means. In fact, I'd say that the vast majority of the poker community doesn't even realize how widespread the problem is. I've witnessed 9max tables with 8 bots on them and 6max tables with 6 bots on them. LOL @ that nonsense.

Your very own site recently put out an article about 90 PLO cash game bots at the Winning Poker Network. That's one friggin game type. Just think how many more there are in NLHE cash games, MTTs, SnGs, etc. Hundreds in total!

Last but certainly not least you seem to think the issue people have with bots is that we believe they're very good at poker and prevent good players from winning. I'm certainly not suggesting that. That's certainly not at the top of my reasons why I want them gone. I'm a winning poker player and I have been for years. I know how to identify them, avoid them and even make money off some of them. Many of them are exploitable to a certain degree. Most of them are not as good as the better real players at the tables.

What they do is put in enormous amounts of volume without ever tilting or losing focus while crushing the weaker regs and recreational players and only needing to break to avoid detection and for occasional maintenance. There is talk that some of them might be able to share hole cards because so many regs run below ev when there are multiple bots at a table.

When you get hundreds of these things on a site it means lots of money is being stolen from the economy. That one WPN bot caught on Twitch had 35k in profit on SharkScope.

Please quit trying to minimize this issue. Maintaining the integrity of the games is the only way poker will remain a viable source of entertainment and extra income for any decent amount of time going forward.

The fact that that kind of nonsense can go on at sites and then to think that they have a magical algorithm to detect all improprieties such as collusion is foolish to believe without some proof to the contrary.


The bot sites sell software that works for the network. You can watch videos of them in action.

Of course you haven't caught many, the games are anonymous. Proper bot detection takes huge hand histories on a single account, which you can't possibly have playing on this network. Most bots look like just another reg these days, especially in small samples.

And I'm not suggesting the network has a worse bot issue than the WPN or Chico or even Party Poker. Frankly, I doubt it is as big of an issue with all of the network's software related issues, lack of rakeback and table cap. We just don't have an accurate way to tell the total extent of the issue in anonymous games, but we also don't have an accurate gauge of traffic in general.

Are you serious? Ignition is the #1 bot infested site on this earth. And they make it very easy with anonymous tables.

Sigh, then they must be really bad bots.

I shake my head every time I see someone post this same response.

So you're saying you've never come across any other player who you've thought was solid at the tables? If you have(you most certainly have) then how do you know they weren't using a bot? The fact is you have no idea if they are or not. Neither does anybody else. Bots look exactly like solid regs in small samples these days. Stop thinking you know what a bot would look like. The only way to definitively identify them is through large hand samples from that specific account. It's not possible to get enough hands on an account in anonymous games to accurately do this from the players' perspective.

And yes, there are plenty of mediocre bots, but not all of them are terrible. Most are significantly better than the average player because they are programmed with a solid basic strategy and never tilt or lose focus.

All this is proof of is that you lost a bunch of money and I doubt anyone doubted that. Beyond that, there's nothing to say "something could potentially be happening here". Just a case of Occam's razor saying you got hacked.

What do you expect? kahn was right. There are certainly bots but there probably aren't that many because the games are still easily beatable for lots of players at every limit in every game. People claiming bots are making them not win are delusional.

I expect poker players who visit a forum like 2+2 to be able to understand that you don't know anything about who or what is behind another account in an anonymous game, especially when you only see them for a couple hundred hands at most. It's hard enough to tell a human from a bot in non-anonymous games these days.

Who and where are these people that keep getting mentioned? Who are these people who are blaming bots for not being able to win? I'm not sure why they keep getting brought up. The fact is I've won a decent amount of money sitting at bot filled tables for the past couple of years. It's certainly still possible to win in the long run. All I care about is that these cheaters are sucking large sums of money out of the poker economy.

kahn was right about what exactly? All I saw was a bunch of minimizing of a serious issue.

Of course the games are softer and less bot affected than other networks for the reasons I mentioned like unstable software, lack of rakeback, table caps and location restrictions. You can't say definitively there aren't that many. You have no idea just like everybody else, including me.

I'm not gonna go back and forth on this because idk wtf you expect. You just wanna be told you're right? or ?????? You or I can't prove **** either way. You said your peace (many many times on 2p2) and people are going to continue to play on Bonition because it's one of the few trustworthy sites US players can play on. Everyone that plays on there (US and ROW and esp. those that post here) should know there are risks of bots there. But that's my last response to you. Go off for paragraphs about this if you'd like since it just means that much to you because ???? idfk why

I'm not trying to be told I'm right. LOL I'm trying to fight false statements and ignorance with the truth.

I don't care if people continue to play at Ignition/Bovada/Bodog. I recommend it to people all of the time. I even help people in the thread. Just because I don't sugarcoat the realities of the bad stuff that happens at some of these sites doesn't mean I'm telling people not to play there. I play there, not often, but I still do every now and then.

Um, have you programmed ai? I have. And, if I have faced bots, these are really bad bots. The problem with the whole infestation thing is, the bots can't use adaptive play, because that anonymity also disguises real humans (which is how I noted the one trying to collect basic samples of play). Especially in Zone. They may play 24/7. but they can't table pick, see who is there, chase the fish, nor accumulate enough statistics on one, let alone thousands, of players.

I am not belittling you, however, you are belittling me, you do not give me enough credit for knowing bot stuff (see the above post where I talk about those c programming classes, a high school AP student could program better). I presume you can see all this data on non anonymous sites, but bots collect data on those sites as well. Just my take.

PS, and as to solid basic strategy, whose solid strategy? Dwan's, Hellmuth's, PIO (not solid in my opinion), Brokenstars, Skuzlad's, Scott Corbett's, etc? Need massive neural network for that kind of bot, and grinding the micros ain't going to pay back the cost, so those are cheap, and on Ignition, really bad bots.

You expect BOTs and humans to play the same style as they would with table names on an anonymous site?

There are no table names, its an interesting place. Best place to work on your own skills, not worry about the others. In my humble opinion, have not tried chico yet.

I love how this thread went from its actual topic of "hacking" or inside job dumping going on and how bovada isn't seemingly doing anything about it.. to bots. We got off topic here.

I agree 100%.

What is the point of this post? I'd really like to know. Clearly he is right and has plenty reasons to be concerned about bots infesting the games. He was responding to a guy (who makes money for promoting these sites) that is trying to downplay the situation. Are you a shill too or just dont care about the future of online poker? Or are you just arrogant enough to think that because you are winning now and can beat the bots now that it will always be like that? Based on your tone I put my money on the latter. Also, whether you can win or not in the current environment is besides the point...the bots are stealing money from the players regardless of whether they are winners or losers. And you are just saying "people claiming bots are the reason they don't win are delusional." That has nothing to do with anything. This is about principles and what is right. You are delusional. Stop sucking Kahn and the site's dick, take some acid and reevaluate...you dense, arrogant, dumb mother****er.

I don't know who implemented the strategy and where they took it from, but it's definitely good enough, in most cases, to maintain a winrate over the average players at the tables. The bots are only as good as the person who adjusts and maintains the strategy within. It's just like the normal population, there are losing bots, breakeven bots, winning bots and bots that are crushing the games.

The fact is, as a whole, they are taking lots of money out of the games. That is the issue, not the fact that they're not all gto crushers right now. That and the fact that they will likely get much better over time.


I agree and I will ask the mods to move the bot derail. I apologize for my part in it. My initial intention was only to question the statement that the sites have these sophisticated algorithms to detect all of these improprieties even though we have evidence to suggest that there are significant bot problems at almost all sites. It just doesn't add up.

pokerstars support is very slow now, is there anything or anyone i can contact to resolve my issue? I can only access my account in restricted mode as my RSA token has expired so cant use live chat