Leaving aside the fact that you've left out some important information like what games/stakes you play and where you're situated, threads like this are pretty much never going to give you a good result. A lot of people don't want to share this information, and therefore either won't respond, or worse, will respond with false information, leaving you to try to distinguish the real answers from the fake ones. Add in the instances when people disagree on which sites are softest, and you're going to end up with a dog's breakfast.

You're probably better off to read some existing threads about different sites, as well as this one:

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/2...i-play-471768/

And if you have any questions, you may want to provide more information about what you play and where you're from, but more general when it comes to asking where to play - "best sites to play on" rather than "softest" will provide more useful information IMO.

I happen to open my email yesterday and was invited to two small freerolls. $500 / $1000 at nlop.

I will give you a little background on nlop before I continue :

Nlop is a free to play site that makes their profit from ads. There are no tournaments that you can buy into for real money. Instead you have to earn there onsite token through the way of playing in tournaments , watching ads , daily log in bonus ect. You can also pay a daily / weekly / monthly fee to remove the ads that give you other benefits as well.

I been a member for a few years but haven't played there. But since I was board and I had free entry, I went ahead and played the $500 freeroll.

I end up winning it. Great, a little suspect of even getting cashed out I go through the process which took only minutes and minutes after that I had my payout.



I was impressed with the cashout process but out of the $200 prize pool I won for first place i was given $132. The reasoning being is they tax 30 % of all winnings from players outside the U.S.

Has anyone encountered this before ? I have never heard of a site withholding a percentage of winnings for tax purchases.

Never heard of that site, and likely never will after this post, but the 30% withholding does happen in live tournaments ( I believe for over $5,000).

In theory your country should have a tax treaty with the US and when you file your appropriate taxes in your country you can get a credit for what was withheld in the US. A lot of live players who sold packages had no idea how this worked for a while, and that led to some awkward dealings.

A lot of players don't want their governments to know they make money from poker, and claiming this 30% back certainly informs them of the source, so you can research that further and choose what is best for you based on whatever country you live in.

I thought the rule was $5000 and up also at some casinos. Either way I did enter for free and I don't plan on making the site a regular place to visit.

The software runs decently but the pre-flop dealing and getting to action takes a little too long.

I do recommend the place for anyone who wants to play risk free. You can not deposit money on the site so there is no way to loose. The biggest cash tourney is $1000 prize pool and it looks like it runs once a week.

Its a great site for the micro grinder or a player that just wants to make some extra beer money.

Hey are there bots that communicate with each other ?

Like networked bots that could scrape hole card data and can send dead cards to eachother to improve their calculations ??


also imagine human colluding players having such a network to link up with each other or their bots. no need for clumsy Skype chats. integrate it into an easy to use HUD

Some Russians have probably done this right?

Is poker dead? The war net would be unstoppable. Especially on PLO

Legally speaking that's not always true. While it's never been enforced to my knowledge, it IS illegal ( and in fact can be up to a class C felony ) to gamble online in Washington state. That includes poker. That being said I believe they are even working on a legalization of it.

Congrats on picking one state out of 50 to "prove me wrong".

In rebuttal: desuetude

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Kahn

When it comes to the law, generalizing doesn't work. Sorry if showing you aren't correct in an assumption you've made especially when it comes to answering someone else's question about the law is a problem for you.

Most states in he US aren't an issue, but everyone needs to look at their state law when it come to online poker, because it can be different.

Sent from my P00C using Tapatalk

I've added an Edit to the subject post.

kahntrutahn,

He is probably referring to this post in ATF:

This in turn relates to the NVG thread: https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/2...eware-1703281/

As someone who regularly reads the forums and has a website that produces online poker news I find it very hard to believe you didn't know what he was referring to. Bots, collusion and other forms of cheating and scams. This is what is going on at pretty much every online poker site at varying degrees. Networks like Chico and WPN clearly put little to no effort into security and are either incompetent or complicit when it comes to the vast amount of cheating that's taking place. The Bodog sites(Ignition/Bovada, etc.) may be just as bad at it, but there is no way to know for sure because it's anonymous. Since I can't say for certain I'll just say I think it's very likely that lots of shady stuff is happening there to.

I really think it would be great if you joined in and helped push this movement towards getting rid of cheaters in online poker that ChicagoJoey has been advocating for.

You said you were meeting with Chico representatives and would be discussing with them the cheating that's taking place there. What did you come away with from that conversation?

.

Don't hold your breath. Of course all affiliates for WPN realize there is likely an extraordinary amount of shady things happening on the network. But it is against their financial interests to warn players of these risks (esp new players who are ignorant to the botting, collusion, multi-accounting, and possibly worse, that appears to be rampant across all stakes and formats on the network).

Mason and 2p2 deem the damning and extensive evidence against WPN game security worthy of an investigation into whether they should continue to allow WPN to advertise here. Mason and 2p2 didn't even pull Lock Poker's advertising until it had been long clear that the site was a scam. So that should tell you something about WPN.

Don't single out one affiliate w the burden to steer players away from a network that is under an investigation that has not been concluded. Most affiliates care about their players' interests about as much as the players care about their affiliates' best interests. Having dealt w numerous affiliates, none of whom were unethical or deemed unworthy of my respect fwiw, BigBadBabar stands out as the affiliate who consistently puts the poker communities' interests above those of his own, when they come into conflict. That's prob why he's been entrusted w moderating the forum where the most money changes hands - the HSNL trading thread.

I really do appreciate you taking the time and sharing with me your perspective. You likely have vastly more knowledge of the industry than I may ever have.

I'm not attempting to single Khan out. If I could ask the same of all affiliates I certainly would. I don't believe many more affiliates have a site as trusted and trafficked when it comes to online poker information as Khan does. That is why I think it would be great if he championed the cause. He has the platform to do it that I'm not sure many other affiliates have.

If they're putting their financial interests first by not informing the community and newcomers of the rampant cheating that's currently taking place on many networks and steering them towards the safer options then I don't believe they're seeing the forest from the trees. If this rampant cheating is allowed to continue there will be less money coming to them because less people will want to play online. If the sites ensure the integrity of the game is at the forefront then more people will feel safer playing online and tell their friends, family and other people that it is safe. Hence more money for affiliates from signups.

I also stated that I didn't believe he was being truthful and I have found an untruthful or misleading statement on his website with regards to cheating at the Chico network. That is why I made the post to him.

I'm not holding my breath, but I do believe eliminating rampant cheating and beefing up security measures is necessary for the longterm health of online poker. It is pretty bad right now and it's only been getting worse at a lot of rooms recently.

and if so, please tell me which games you play. Thanks.

Full ring 25nl

Alternatively, I think it stands to reason that 2+2 might just be a little trigger happy because of all the flak they received from the Lock Poker scandal.


Ask them. They all have contact forms. I'm sure you won't get any answers though. I'm one of the few that maintains a public profile and interacts with the community. Whether you like my interactions or not, well, that's not my issue.


I disagree. I know what statement you are talking about and I know it to be true. Your interpretation is otherwise and that is fine. Don't be a customer of theirs. Don't be a customer of mine. It's OK.


WRT Chico and WPN, I had talks with both of them about the sudden explosion of botting/collusion/super-user talk. I've been made aware of certain measures they are taking in response.

However, and I know the lambasting will soon begin, I'm not at liberty to discuss said measures with the general public. If my word isn't good enough, and the logical idea that the sites themselves don't want this behavior (or even the perception of this behavior) existing on their sites, then there is nothing more I can provide for you and I would advise you to steer clear of both sites.

For that matter, I would advise you to steer clear of all online poker. And live poker. And the stock markets. And anything that involves money. Human beings will attempt to take advantage wherever possible when money is involved. Companies will fight back. Sometimes the warfare is, unfortunately, asymmetrical (think of DDoS attacks for example) and difficult to deal with. Games of cat and mouse are played every day.

To reiterate, both WPN and Chico are taking these subjects seriously. If things don't move fast enough for your liking, I highly suggest voting with your feet and not giving them your business. I think that is unwise and -EV, as do a number of pro players who I have witnessed ramping up their volume lately to take advantage of the weaker games afforded by other pros bailing out... but I digress.

You are correct. None of the offshore sites disallow TN and you can play wherever you want. All the sites have micro stakes PLO and unless you plan on multi-tabling, which it doesn't sound like you are, then pretty much all of them should give you a few spewtastic penny games to play at. You could sort them by who has the most rakeback or rewards, by who has the lowest rake, by who has the most games to select from, etc in order to determine "best" since that is subjective. Be more specific and I can give a more specific answer.


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Kahn

Does anyone know of any sites that currently have this? I recalled a while back a few sites had this such as partypoker and I believe 888poker? But they no longer do this? I believe it was something like they deduct either an amount or a percentage of your account balance until it goes to 0 if you do not log into it for a while.

WPN takes it so seriously they've made a couple of forum posts about cheating, and that's it.


No one whose reported bots on WPN have seen those accounts suspended on this forum, and there has been no observable action against bots/botrings/collusion on the site.

The WPN CEO isn't even bothering to do a stream in the wake of Joey's accusations because he's "travelling."

I can't speak for chico, but WPN does not take these things seriously.

I would recommend that any new players NOT deposit a cent on WPN until the network provides some proof that they are dealing with cheating, because as of right now, there is none.

Yes, some sites have variations of that.

If you'd like an answer that would be of some help to you, it would probably make sense to ask about the particular site(s) you're concerned about. Unless you have money on every site that you're planning to abandon for 6+ months.

Considering that he lives and works in Costa Rica and I physically saw him in London England, I'd say that "travelling" is an "appropriate" description of what he is doing.


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Kahn

Ah, the remote reaches of London, far removed from internet access and smartphone technology.

Had I known he was in the uncharted hinterlands, I would have thought better of calling him an incompetent do-nothing when his company is the subject of a the biggest scandal in poker today. But now I know he's out there, so far from civilization and the technology that we've come to rely on, I can't fault him.

Did you know they don't even have grits or iced tea in that barren wilderness?

I like to know for these sites/ewallets


Skrill
Neteller
partypoker
888poker
wpn
intertops
betonline
bet365

And when you searched for answers yourself first, what did you find?

My interpretation? My view and statements on the subject come from first hand experience. I've played more than 200k hands on the site over the last year in 6max nlhe cash games from the smallest stakes up to the mid-stakes. Your statement "the Chico Network actively searches for collusion and botting networks and shuts them down." is false, and at the very least misleading, because it certainly hasn't been true about the network over the past 6 months. I've sent them multiple large bot lists which have not led to any removal of the accounts.

How logical should it appear to someone who is literally telling the site who the botters are and nothing is being done about it? I agree though that they would definitely prefer not to the have the perception of it existing while still being able to enjoy the rake these accounts generate.

Cat and mouse? Where has the cat been? The mice continue to roam around unchecked every single day.

What would you suggest as an appropriate time frame for when we should start seeing changes or at which point you would no longer believe that they are taking it seriously?


This may be true of high stakes games, but down below where most of us play the games are not getting any "weaker." New bots pop up weekly while the old ones remain.

I have my opinion based on my conversations with people at these companies and my experiences in the games I play on said sites. You have your opinion based on what you read on forums and see in the games you play.

We are just going to have to agree to disagree on this point.


I have certainly seen this type of thing overlooked by poker site security departments before. I suspect it is because it is difficult to filter out the rants and raves of players versus what might actually be true reporting.

I agree that many sites could do a better job of parsing this data. Unfortunately, I'm not sure how to achieve that goal in a cost-effective manner.

For example, I'm certain that I could sort through player submitted data and suss out the real from the bull**** with far greater accuracy than the average poker site security department employee. I suspect that you might be able to as well. Unfortunately, the hourly rate I would charge for such a service is above and beyond what anyone would pay, it isn't something I wish to do for a living, and thus, it's not a viable solution. Similarly, hiring you to do a similar job likely isn't viable as well.

Now, you're probably itching to say that you have already done the job of finding the bots for free. BUT, what you fail to realize is that someone has to look through the hundred or so false and ****ty reports per day, find your report, and believe what you have submitted in a timely and cost-effective manner. Not as easy as you might think.

For all I know, your methods of bot detection are flawed and you are generating a plethora of false positives. I've seen it before and I'm sure I'll see it again.

I know for a fact that they are taking it seriously and thus, I have faith that the issues will be mitigated.

Your perception is diametrically opposed. Since you feel very strongly about the matter, I would suggest that you cease and desist playing at all sites where you believe the games are -EV (financially or otherwise) immediately and move on to greener pastures.

Ultimately however, everyone's internal calculations are different and each consumer needs to make a decision that is best for them. Some are choosing to flee. Others are choosing to ramp up their activity. And yet others couldn't care less. To each their own.

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Kahn