A group of husng regulars approached me to help raise awareness for a serious issue which is happening on WPN for quite long time. After they sent me the evidences I belive this problem belongs to this forum, so I am going to publish their standpont without any changes.

TL;DR We have strong evidence that a botring has hijacked HUSNGs on Winning Poker Network. WPN refuses to take action despite repeated complaints.

In July and August, a group of Russian, Belarussian and Ukrainian low stakes players (playing 24-36 hyper husngs) mounted a coordinated attack on the WPN HUSNG games at all stakes from $24 to $500. This botring generally controls the lobbies most of the hours but now they decided to take full control of the day. Here are some red flags which got me and a group of fellow regulars immediately suspicious of them:

• they were immediately ready to play deep, regular blind, husng-s at 200$ stake (before they only sat maxium 50$ stakes for months)
• they were ready to play 8-9 different regulars on 6 tables for 5 hours without a single break.
• They played up to 12-14 hours in total without any break (the war happened after they were already sitting there for 6-8 hours)
• They kept this pace for 1,5 months.
• some crucial statistics are the same for all of them (completely differ from on avg regular tendencies and extremely close to GTO play)
• Players get disconnected only on one of the several tables they are playing simultaneously
• entire matches on sit-out
• (the last 2 points could be explained only by bugs in the bot, which sometime „dropped” one but not other tables)

In 10 years of professional poker career I have never met players with such superhuman endurance (well I did but those were bots too). Accordingly, I made my first report to WPN security after a few days of playing these nicknames, but they replied with a formulaic letter stating they are investigating this issue. I know that other regulars have notified WPN of this unusual activity around the same time, yet they did not do anything although the situation was more than suspicious.

Unlike in cash games, live and let live is not an option in husng-s when a network is infested by bots. One cannot continue playing as normal and still earning some money from recreational players. To quote a classic from xrab who ran the biggest botring in husngs until last year: “The way hu sngs work is that whoever holds the lobby, gets to play vs the recreational players and thus makes money.” Therefore, I had to play exclusively against bots for the past two months along with other human regulars on WPN. This is also the only way to collect data / hand history from these players. Obviously, warring with a botring is expensive so a few of us human regulars joined hands to reduce the cost, while gaining enough evidence.

As the members of the botring divided the timezones we only have hard evidence on 4 players which played the same hours as us: AutisticRaven, QuitSilence, Westchester, whoopensocker. The statistics below are based on roughly 5000 games, or close to 200K hands. During the war, the two parties together paid more than $70.000 in rake (which may explain why WPN is not quick to act).

What kind of evidence could prove that bots are making the decisions for these players? In a word, consistency. Whereas humans’ decisions are necessarily variable and error prone, computers are eerily consistent. Specifically, we will look at consistency across the four (supposedly independent, supposedly human players) mentioned above. If we can show that they play extraordinary volumes at extraordinary consistency, we can safely assume they are linked by a common real-time helper tool. Of course, the designers of the botring know that this is a weakness in their system, therefore probably design tactics to make their strategies more variable and thus more human-like by using different strategies in simple MR/limp situations pre-flop or c-betting/barrelling decision post-flop. However, they did not vary their strategy in more complex situations, (e.g. fold vs bet-check-bet, fold vs c-bet in 3bet pot, raise vs c-bet in 3bet pot, ISO non all-in, fold vs 3bet preflop, fold vs probe, donking flop) presumably because these are too complex for the low stakes horses executing the bots decisions and in situations involving folds, presumably because these are too expensive to neglect.

Note that because these are specific and relatively rare situations our sample size is smaller (and as we all know too well, in small samples variance is larger). So it is all the more remarkable that the consistencies below still emerge. Some additional noise in preflop statistics is due to entire sit-outs (affecting whoopensocker the most).
Here is their preflop stats in HUD



For highlight these are their crucial stats which happens to be the same:



Their postflop stats:





So who are these players? Here is an incomplete roster:

- AutisticRaven (Ukraine)
- QuitSilence (Russia)
- Westchester (Russia)
- whoopensocker (Belarus)
- G20LLD (Russia)
- exJordan (Russia)
- gerda_kitty (Belarus)
- PAULITROVICH (Belarus)
- psychodel1c (Latvia)
- prizrakOperbI (Russia)

It is an open secret among the husng community that these players are members of the Saauron1 botring banned in 2017 from PokerStars and in 2018 from Party Poker. If you want to read more on their rich history of cheating, here are a few useful links:

Saauron1 (most likely AutisticRaven on WPN) incredible sharkscope graph on Stars (got banned in 2017):
https://gyazo.com/900ed50acec47310b11bf6a6eec8f783

Partypoker banned an entire botring in the end of November, 2018. These names mentioned in this forum several times also

https://gyazo.com/945026328d5b21f6cd4423b568d39222

Saauron’s bots were partially blocked from sharkscope but if we check one of the opposite team member most frequent opponents we can see saauron’s partypoker team:
https://gyazo.com/5fa71e259f911bef2d3f7bdb32de2370

In pokerprolabs we can see that Saayron1, G20LLD, XAPPUGA were banned the same time as the rest of the botring from partypoker

https://gyazo.com/112bfec5cae6f18ffb30bf4a249cf859
https://gyazo.com/f6add66331e2eb09e73d81cb858da1e0
https://gyazo.com/c7567a6ea5ce94fd4ef8c469bb8498f8

Mention on 2p2 about these bots on WPN earlier:
https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/s...ostcount=15977

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/s...&postcount=142
https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/1.../#post55272099

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/s...40&postcount=6

What is WPN doing?

WPN champions itself publicly for being an industry leader on integrity (https://www.poker.org/forum/viewtopi...2f38271d3e3059), yet they failed to act in 2 months. We sent them multiple emails, including the statistics from above and more. If we could produce strong evidence of cheating with our humble means, they have no excuse for not detecting this weeks ago. Honestly, it raises uncomfortable questions whether it is stupidity or malice explaining their inaction.
If you have a WPN account, please consider sending an email to gameintegrity@winningpokernetwork.com to protest against bots.

P.s: husng botring on chico/ipoker/888 will be revealed soon.

Was it just hold em or plo too?

deal me in (not to husng tho)

Hi, I have a question regarding the accounts linked in the following segment:

I couldn't help but notice a clear discrepancy in winrates between the accounts. Some appear to be winning and others appear to be breakeven or even losing "players". For example, "SmashUrGrandma" and "BermundoX". Do you have any idea why this may be the case? Were they playing different games? Was one "player" designed for mass-volume/rakeback whereas the other was designed to be directly profitable?

I understand you may not have the answer to this but it'd be interesting to think about as this would imply that a single bot ring has access to multiple bots for different purposes, rather than a single bot which all of the runners in the bot ring use.

I really dont understand why people still mess with WPN.. aren't there bots all over the place?

Variance

I know the traffic would shrink significantly but if WPN just banned Russia, Latvia, Belarus, and maybe Lithuania, they would get rid of the vast majority of botting it seems. Honestly, the format they really care about, MTT, doesn't seem like it would suffer that much reduced traffic.

Tbh I give online poker 2 years max 5 then it's dead. Ai/bits are developing exponential.

BTW g20lld, they don't even change the name of the bit lol. He was playing on pp. I actually played 350 games vs that acc, knewing it's a bot. Caus back then it wasn't perfect at all. A bunch of non gto leaks and so on.

Looks like they perfected the ultimate bot. U cannot fight this.

Looks like sauron has a professional operation / company now, where the only thing they do is programm bots.

Only the sites with all their money and cash could fight that.

It's so freaking ridic that acr is not doing anything.. They never will.

I don't see anything that we can do. That's the harsh reality.

I mean they don't even change the bits nickname, wtf. They know sites don't act........

i dont understand why these sites dont just ban all eastern euro cheater countries. **** boggles my mind.

woopensocker, exjordan playing right now 1020pm mountain time..

yawn, wake me when a husng reg isn't playing GTO

"oh but it has more endurance than me and more blatantly mimics solvers!"

oh no how will you take recs money now?! it was yours and now its theirs

WELCOME TO THE 21ST CENTURY

ps i too would move 100% action to any site banning ussr countries

a lot of recs are from those countries as well. And most of the bots are so badly programmed that they are losing even though they probably share cards. There are like 2 Russian accounts in blitz200 pool that beat the game, if that. After a certain hour a few russian bots are the weakest players in the pool (I mean I assume they are bots).

Granted, I always mark russian/ukrainian players so I can protect myself in case they share cards and lately they have been a lot of them, which is not really comfortable to be honest. Some of them play such a similar style that they have to be bots, but that style is just bad and they lose $ in my DB, some of them lose a lot. But again I'm trying to be cautious and only very rarely have I seen conspicous stuff.
+ this stuff is cyclical, ACR get rid of bots, volume drops for a while, then they come back etc, so I have no doubt that their number is gonna drop soon.

I had to film myself playing recently, others as well. I see no reason to assume that ACR people don't care/are not trying.
--

if this problem becomes worse, solution is trivial. Get rid of simple poker formats and come up with new and more complicated ones. 3 blind games, antes, the rock, whatever....

HUSNG cheating on other sites will be revealed soon so our mighty hungarian stable of shitregs can add more horses and take over all sites, then if any reg sit us we will get ghosting or use semibots too.

seems like OP left out that last part in what he wrote Funny thread, from the mentioned players some even not connected with the rest of the list, and they are from different countries. Obv some of them real bots or semi bots, but all of the hungarians playing HUSNG connected another botring (what OP forgot to mention).


I just found their main page, its cute. They promote new horses with banned former 1k bot HyperDonk618.


few more from propokerbacking, what a surprise

So if sites just decide to ban all eastern euro cheater countries, start it with hungary.

Hey man, why don't you reveal who you are rather than using a 1-post account?

Players who collected this data have never been "connected another botring" - if you have evidence that they were, please let us know.

HyperDonk used to be our coach way before he got banned from Stars. His name being present on the website is an error that will be corrected, you seem to know the stable so you are obviously aware of this.
Please read this post from PS rep watergun7 about that:

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/s...postcount=6303

Anyways this thread shouldn't be about false allegations about PPB players. Let's focus on botrings running at WPN.

We'd like to focus on HUNL SNG's now, this is the format where we have the evidence against the bot users.

You can see these players almost every day, some of them playing from 10PM CET until 11AM CET. Again, the players we have evidence against played 12-hour long sessions which ended with playing against 7-8 regulars using a close-to-gto strategy without taking a break for 5 hours straight.

I don't think banning whole countries is the solution here, it is not the goal of this thread either. There are hard evidence against certain players and we're asking WPN to investigate them.

Other team just stronger and unshared your team at WPN, so now you created this thread like an offended child.

Some of your stable coach/former coach on my last printscreen are well known bots among euro poker community. Half of your hungarian stable banned on pokerstars, that is why trying to play WPN instead. Dark and shady, dark and shady......

OP your people just need a stronger bot

Unshared? These accounts sat below us for a long time on 24-50 USD, and suddenly they decided to battle 6 tables each on 1-200s.
We held all the lobbies during the war.
They were ready to play 2-3 vs 8 for more than a month, while they did not get recs at all. Show me one war in these conditions, botwars included.
Stronger bot? Be real. WPN has our hand histories, and has theirs. They can easily make a decision based on that.
We are ready to play one week under the mentioned conditions and record a video. Are they ready to do that?

Jesus hu sng scene is ****ed.

This is a great way to get acr to stop spreading those games at all

hi so I am a small stakes reg at heads up hypers not really had an issue with bots per say I have had some tough reg wars for me to earn my place in the lobby and I have won every single one now including against that one real strong player i always avoided until i made my stand.

anyway I really want to be good enough to play higher stakes but all this scares me. I seriously doubt I have played bots before as at my stakes I have never come across someone i cant beat but i play the micros and currently in the process of about to move to low/mid stakes.

I really am trying and I really dont want to think all my efforts are useless, to just end up against bots eventually that are unbeatable.

so are heads up hypers solved then? when people mention GTO do we know for a fact GTO? please please please can someone link me to where i can find all this I dont think I can memorize that many decision trees but so many spots i dont know what I am doing and I would like to improve in.

I spent 3 whole days trying to make hand charts in ICMIZER and pokerstove and when I say three days I mean 10 hours each day solid at it.

then I bought hand chart off internet and found it did everything i was trying to do better then what I had managed in that time.

which Makes me think I suck and dont really know how to use pokerstove and ICMIZER properly.

I really do not want to be making all this effort for nothing if I am just going to get owned by perfectionate unbeatable bots.

Hasn't WPN made it clear they don't care about bots?

You've been living under a rock for the last year??

https://www.winningpokernetwork.com/...bot%20winnings.

https://pokerfuse.com/news/poker-roo...-against-bots/

https://www.flushdraw.net/news/wpn-a...st-poker-bots/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ahf...ericasCardroom

I mean... there is still a lot of ground to cover for sure but they being doing their part.

Well if we wanna go down this road, Phil said every bot we find from here on out we will payout 100k or something absurd, so we hold ourselves accountable. Guess what happened after that...crickets no more bots found and no more refunds for years. lol doing their part?

makes sense tho ur a new account that all of ur 6 posts on here are defending russian bots

I really don't care if I play against a bot, in the end, the cards decide who wins, not the one who bluffs all the time. If your opponent catches all hands, you can bluff all day long! Isn't poker fun? People who play with a bot are missing all the fun imo. Unless you're a donkey and cry every hand you lose. GTO can kiss my ass! There is no such thing as playing every hand perfectly in poker! You can not see your opponent's hole cards. People that watch everyday Rounders, pretending to be Matt Damon LMFAO.

I'm more of a Worm guy myself, I can see the cards coming on the bottom of the deck. GTO ftw

It's time to give up on the site. Look how crap their newest software is to PS's 20 year old software. They can't even get the basics down, how can you expect any game integrity security? If they spent resources to match PS software & security, they would probably be making 5x what they make now.

Just look at all the latest sites releasing software and how fast they improved or grown. WPN is an embarrassment for NA.