Is WPN cancelling tournaments midway?

Why did you make the post about the bot in the other thread and ask about tournament cancellations in this thread?

I'd put good money on the bot to human ratio in acr cash to be quite high. Prob 4 bots to 1 human?

Bots wouldn't be active if they weren't profitable. This means they are taking money off the fish, which leaves less money for legitimate human players to win off the fish. You should care.

Well you do that on other sites. We dont have zoom yet or anon tables so if you suspect a hand i dont see the harm in sending me at the minimum the hand id to have a look at.

So not agreeing with having anything but mucked cards which is coming at some point seems a little strange. Playing sites that are completely anon or allowed to change nicknames every so often seems like its more possible to get away with alot of things or am i way off track here?

[QUOTE=thegrindz;54475215]I sent proof via pictures and video of bots at 25 and 50 PLO, months ago, to your security team, emailed several times and placed several phone calls for some players at the HU tables.

ACR did absolutely nothing about it. They're completely indifferent, to put it nicely, about bots playing on their site. But since you appear to be here representing the site to some extent, I'll ask that you forward this information and have it seriously considered. Openly allowing thieves and scumbags to steal from paying customers is absolute bull****. It ruins the only decent platform to play on for US players.

Another thing I can't seem to understand...why would ACR let this type of trash absolutely ruin what could have been the biggest site for US players? The rest of the world is obviously playing on sites that at least pretend to give a **** about their integrity, their customers and their longevity as a "business". So why give up the biggest market in exchange for such a limited one?

Please send me this stuff. I would be interested to see what you sent security.

When you say ACR is doing nothing about it. I can assure you many things get done, many investigations all the time.

If i didnt care i wouldnt be responding to you here. The problem is, makes no difference what i say or know because no one listens or believes so as the one poster said. Why do i post here? The answer is because i get so frustrated and try and make people realise without giving info i cannot give away that not everything is a conspiracy, not everything is correct what people say or post and the fact that we get more comments than other sites that you just wouldnt be able to know anything about security is strange to me.

I assure you that many things are happening and continuously trying to get better but you wont believe me but its the truth.

This is one of the biggest issues. First of all i dont do security. I am the tournament director i just forward things to them.
Second, there is no way i would publicly post this info in a forum even if i did know the answers to all of them. I dont think any site would ever post sensitive info like this, i dont read all the sites threads, i do read many but i dont recall them ever saying anything along these lines.

What worries me is that you ask the questions thinking that i should be answering them. I will say one thing to you because i do know some. Not every account that players say is a bot turns out to be a bot. With full proof that it isnt, obviously we just dont publicly put that info out there.

Our relationship with 2+2 as far as im concerned is absolutely fine. I have zero issues with them and i dont think they have an issue with me.

Maybe they should move you to the security team. As it seems now, forwarding issues to Sesame St would do a better job than the current crew.....

Some of these suspected bots are winning at over 10bb/100. Not only are they crushing the fish into extinction, they are also crushing the legit regs.

+ siphoning out rake race money

Very true.

I always question the motives or the poker knowledge of people who play online poker and are indifferent to the issue or think these bots can be easily exploited longterm for decent winrates at these stakes.

Most of the time I question whether they actually even know which accounts are the bots. More often than not I see people accusing these nitty euro rakeback grinder types.

I've tracked many micro-mid stakes bots and some of the highest winrates I've seen in large sample sizes were those of bots. I've also tracked some breakeven or slightly losing bots over 100k+ hands. I've also seen losing bots turn into big winners. Not all bots are crushers, but on the whole most bots these days are significantly better than the average regs at these stakes.

They're a big reason why the micros are so tough and why very few real players are able to move up through the lowest stakes these days. A lot of bots never even move up. They slaughter the recreational and weaker players at these stakes day after day. They never tilt or lose focus and can put in infinite volume every day of the year. When there are so many present in the games it completely devestates the ecosystem.

Bots are a very significant issue for online poker no matter how easy you believe it is to play against them.

Here is some more data on the profiles in question. I personally don't sit with more than 2 of these bots at fullring or if there are 2 at a 6max table i leave. I definitely won't sit to the right of these accounts. Even though with this amount of data you can have a really really good idea what they are playing, you still won't win much from them. It's frustrating when i see the recs at the table losing money to them most likely not knowing they are fishy accounts.

https://imgur.com/C5IhzAM

yes , the bots are crushing the stakes , they just arent making even more money because they do some stupid stuff sometimes , like 3beting a nit etc.. i think they just calculate whats the best range to raise call or fold , and do this no matter what... , sometimes they shove second pair as bluff , and sometimes they check the nuts , they are wierdly extremelly balanced , and if you just try to read then you end up doing **** .

WPN has continued to show incompetency with their bot situation. They will continue to say things like they care, improvements are coming, are security team is reviewing, etc., but never take action. This shtick has honestly been going on for years. I stopped playing on this site years ago and suggest everyone does the same. For US players goodluck to you/us

Winning TD....

Has WPN shut down any bot accounts in the past, if so how many?

What happens to funds in said accounts?

Why are you not proactively looking for bots? It shouldn't be the players responsibility to report accounts to you, that is what your "security" department is for.

also , since its our job to report , why dont at least we get these accounts money back , as a payback for the damages , and also our job as security team lol .

I didnt say you look out for bots, I said if you suspect a hand and that was why i was confused why i was quoted because i was saying if you think collusion in one hand then send it to be looked at.

@numberonedonk. I dont find out results as i have said and even if I did, as any site wouldnt do is give you sensitive information publicly.

I am trying to be as open as i can but you guys dont hear what im saying. This is why i stopped being active in the forums. I really am trying but you have to have an open mind. Not just think everything is one big conspiracy when it really isnt.

One thing i can assure you is, I send names over that i see posted here to be investigated and security are constantly doing it them selves. Anyone that has been to the live cage and had a tour of the offices would be able to confirm that as its presented to them.

Telling us that you have or have not banned bot accounts in the past is not sensitive information.

I don't want specific names I just want to know if WPN has actually banned a bot account.

Stars tells us what happens to players funds and while they don't give specifics about specific accounts they do send out emails in regards to players getting refunds when player funds are confiscated due to breaking TOS.

It's hard to not think you guys are up to some shady **** when you lack transparency.

You think we thing it's all a big conspiracy but yet won't offer anything to prove it's not. Did you see the ChicagoJoey video?


Ok but if you just send them over and nothing happens to them it's irrelevant.

At this point I would think you all would want to help clear your name of all the alleged shady **** that goes on on your site but nah.

This is the 2nd time you've mentioned a conspiracy. What conspiracy are you referring to? Nobody in this thread has said you guys are running the bots yourselves. We're saying your security team is incompetent. There is no disputing that there are bots on your network. There has been for a long time. It is a fact. If you're not aware of that after the amount of time you've been with this company then you are extremely ignorant. I doubt that is the case though. I think you are well aware of it.

The word conspiracy theory gets a bad rap because people assume conspiracy theories are inherently false which is in itself false. Referring to serious issues as conspiracy theories to try to minimize the seriousness of the issue is unprofessional on your part.

If you can't handle the job as representative for your company because you receive some completely warranted negative feedback then you're not cut out for the job. You should just continue to do your tournament director duties, which from all accounts you do a great job with. I think we'd all prefer to be speaking with somebody from the security department or leadership in the company who can actually affect some change with the bot issue in any meaningful way. They're leaving you here to take all of the heat and be a punching bag when it is them who should be in here answering these questions.


Exactly.

not even remotely surprised

the plo bots from this thread: https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/2...stakes-1695993 did get banned after chicagojoey made a video about them, but they returned a week later and are still playing 24/7 with new accounts despite sending emails to security many times..

Seems like they arent doing anything at all unless people keep making a big fuss publicly

Well as someone who plays on WPN/ACR, I'd like to have confidence in your (the network/site) dedication and ability to meaningfully address and mitigate the issue of bots. When I played on pokerstars many years ago, a guy named Josem was in charge of their security team and actively posted on twoplustwo. He was always open and forthcoming with information about how they addressed the issue of bots, and it gave me confidence in the site.

I understand you are a tournament director, not security guy, but a very large percentage of the questions you get here on the forums about WPN/ACR are related to security, so perhaps you're just not able to address them because of the capacity in which you work. I don't fault you for that if that's the case, but perhaps you guys should get another person here who is in a security role to help address concerns players have, because players have been voicing concerns for a long time now from what I've seen, and it doesn't really seem like they're being address in a meaningful way because accounts that appear to be bot accounts keep popping up, and you're completely unable to provide any sort of confidence in WPN/ACR's ability to address bots.

If players on your site asking you, as the sole representative of your site, questions about how you address game integrity is worrying to you, then that's worrying to me, and as far as I'm concerned and can tell, your site's relationship with twoplustwo is not fine. You no longer have an official thread or subforum, and you guys apparently haven't spoken with the relevant parties of twoplustwo in a long time, since the falling out. At least that's what I'm led to believe, because I've asked Mason Malmuth, and you the same question, and haven't gotten an answer from either of you. It's fine that there's been no answer, it just doesn't inspire confidence.

What I'm seeing with WPN/ACR on twoplustwo, and what I saw back in the day with pokerstars and twoplustwo, is dramatically different. Pokerstars inspired confidence, you guys do not, so I'm going to cash out the vast majority of my bankroll again and maybe in another six months I'll take another look at your site.

Forgot a very important thing: Do you guys not even credit money back to players that were cheated by bot accounts or colluders? That seems like a low hanging fruit you could have offered up. But by all means, keep on keeping on. Mums the word. Just don't expect players to have confidence in the integrity of your games.


I appreciate the speed of your bitcoin withdraws btw. Good on you guys for that.

But this is concerning to me as well. Just trying to provide feedback as a player that might be helpful.

Can you do a player search for these guys Winning TD?

Warrioor
filbuster
Gluckauf
Bubine
Arocquet
FallinLaugh
GinSling
Bombur
puQQilist

All from Latvia, all using Pokerking skin, all with relatively similar ABI and all with very similar HUD stats.



Some have there stats hidden on Sharkscope and there are certain HUD stats which I feel like there is enough variation between specific stats that they are probably different players.

However, what I find odd though is that they are all from Latvia, they all use the Pokerking skin and all have a really similar ABI.

There are also accounts from Germany with similar HUD stats/ABI as well which I speculate might be in the same group.

How could this possibly be strange to you? It's pretty simple really, the other sites actually do something to protect their players. The players see the sites doing things to protect them, so the sites get much more leniency from the players. On the other hand, people have been screaming about bots on WPN for as long as I can remember now. You've been here on these forums for 6+ years, so there is no way in hell that you're not aware of the people screaming about bots for several years now. The difference between your network and other sites is that when people scream about cheating on PokerStars, PokerStars investigates and then solves the issue in a timely manner, ...like a couple weeks. Whereas on WPN, it never gets solved, and the problems only grow worse. There is no chance that you don't understand this, no chance that it seems strange to you.

As usual, I doubt it. But given that you only claim to be "trying", then just whatever. If you've actually been trying for all these years, then you should quit, everyone working on these problems should quit, everyone should be fired, they're obviously all completely incompetent and should be replaced with someone who will actually "DO" something, rather than just keep trying to do something. It simply doesn't take years to solve these problems.


Amen.

THISSSSSS.

You're the tournament Director @Winning_TD and you have bots running rampant in your tournaments.

How can you sit there and say "YOU WONT TAKE ME SERIOUSLY"..

No wonder we won't take you seriously, you have constant bots in all formats on your site and you do NOTHING ABOUT IT.

Has ANYONE seen ANY bot banned? EVER? That doesn't return immediately?

Lets be honest here, you guys don't give a **** and are just going to continue to rake from the bots.

Not to mention these guys play EVER low stake tournament.. even the .11 cent $100 GTD.

They never play bigger as well