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Old 09-12-2020, 01:23 PM   #1
oddmoney
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Why does Bwin Refuse to Provide HHs?

Many months (maybe a year?) after party has made the very basic functionality of providing players with HHs (again), bwin a brand under the same corporate umbrella, a part of the network, still does not.

As I have very limited options to play legally in my country, I decided to give bwin a chance.

What happened yesterday made me deeply suspicious of bwin as a company.
Played around 8000-8500 hands, looked at results after day had finished. Down 18 BI. Worst day of the year. Curious thing, I thought I was up 2-4 BI.
Went to the website where you can barely get some hand histories (after 200 website does not load more). Fortunately there are those great filters such as "Raised preflop", "Called preflop" and "Went All In". Checked the last one and I had 80 hands for a profit of 16 BI (had to calculate it by hand of course).

So, it seems I have lost 34 BI for 8-8.5k hands in non-all-in situations, a winrate of -40bb/100. Seemed very very suspicious. Proceeded to ask support for hand histories for just this one day, so I could verify what's going on. Copy paste answer, how they do not provide those, ensued as expected.
Meanwhile, I managed to create some custom PT4 stats and filters for not all-in hands and looked at my db to see how this winrate is supposed to look like.

Turns out, it's -7bb/100 for this year for me. Proceeded to find out the standard deviation of non-all-in hands (expected to be lower than the normal of 100ish). Turns out it's 70-75.

Plugged in those numbers in the pokerdope calculator and ended up getting the probability of getting those results at 0.0012%.(72 std)

Still thinking it's me, I looked at all of my days where I played the most (which are normally losing days when I know I am losing ie tilting) and got a winrate of -15bb/100. Using this gives 0.0684% probability of occuring. (72 std).

Now for me this is all very suspicious, maybe a bug happened when money transferred back to the account from the tables, I don't know.

What bwin has been doing in response to my inquiries is to continually insist on not providing any hand histories. They had supposedly reviewed the matter and everything checked out. Then told me that I had lost according to their records not 18 BI as evidenced by my account balance, but close to 27. A further discrepancy which made me reaaaly doubt their internal accounts and IT systems.

So this left me wondering what the real reason is for refusing to provide HHs - the herculean effort required to port a technology that their sibling company has had for months or maybe something else entirely.
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Old 09-12-2020, 05:40 PM   #2
HanSoloDK
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Re: Why does Bwin Refuse to Provide HHs?

Please post all e-mail between you and BWIN (remove personal information).
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Old 09-13-2020, 09:54 AM   #3
oddmoney
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Re: Why does Bwin Refuse to Provide HHs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by HanSoloDK View Post
Please post all e-mail between you and BWIN (remove personal information).
This is gonna be a loong scroll. Don't know if it's worth it.
Only thing of real interest is where they have taken some metric of "total amount spent" vs "total winnings" which showed a larger loss than the one I end up disputing 750 EUR:

Dear xxxxx,

Thanks for contacting us.

We have reviewed your query regarding the result from the gameplay from yesterday and see that your total amount spent on tables is 11137.28 EUR from buying in on tables and the total winnings are 10006.45 EUR.

This leaves you at a total result of 1130.83 EUR loss. You can review your gaming transactions from your profile as well and see where you spent money and where you won them as time stamps as well.

Please do not hesitate to contact us if you have any further queries.

Kind regards

Your technical support team


Maybe reasoning is so I am glad it isn't worse. I don't know. When I pressed about the meaning of those numbers, no answer came...
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Old 09-13-2020, 12:41 PM   #4
HanSoloDK
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Re: Why does Bwin Refuse to Provide HHs?

Where in that e-mail do they say anything about not wanting to provide HH's.
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Old 09-13-2020, 04:01 PM   #5
oddmoney
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Re: Why does Bwin Refuse to Provide HHs?

Dear xxxx,

....

Unfortunately we are unable to send you in detail every hand you played on this day as we don't send hand histories, but attached we are sending all the debit and credit transactions for the 11.09.2020.

Please do not hesitate to contact us if you have any further queries.

Kind regards

Your technical support team
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Old 09-14-2020, 04:26 AM   #6
SanchoHH
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Re: Why does Bwin Refuse to Provide HHs?

As the next step you should probably try this:

"You can review your gaming transactions from your profile as well and see where you spent money and where you won them as time stamps as well."
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Old 09-14-2020, 04:59 AM   #7
oddmoney
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SanchoHH View Post
As the next step you should probably try this:

"You can review your gaming transactions from your profile as well and see where you spent money and where you won them as time stamps as well."
This was my first step. Those transactions don't tell the whole story though. That's why I insisted on having the hand histories confirm what the transaction history tells.

*

Another very relevant reply from bwin:

Dear XXX,

Thanks for contacting us.

Our new software will not provide a story for the hands you can download. We recently launched our new software and will continue to work and make further improvements. We are developing our network policies and working hard to create a safer poker product. The changes support this spirit and support players of all levels, especially recreational players, and give them a level playing field. We believe that poker should be fun and a game of skill, not a game in which the use of third-party tools gives players an advantage.

Please do not hesitate to contact us if you have any further queries.

Kind regards,

Your bwin customer service team


I definitely now think there is something going on.

*

Dear xxxxx,

Thanks for contacting us.

We would like to remind you that you have been informed many times that we do not offer a hand history. This is a business solution.

Our responsible departments confirmed, after a specialized inspection, that no irregularities were found in your account on the relevant date on which you made an inquiry.

Please do not hesitate to contact us if you have any further queries.

Kind regards,

Your bwin customer service team

Last edited by Mike Haven; 09-14-2020 at 06:02 AM. Reason: 3 posts merged
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Old 09-14-2020, 06:12 PM   #8
TreadLightly
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Re: Why does Bwin Refuse to Provide HHs?

Their support is pretty rough I had an extra ticket I was seeing if I could get T$ for and i had to assume first person who told me theres no way was wrong so i went to ask a different one the next day and got an immediate short message saying they already told me my answer and to have a nice day
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Old 09-15-2020, 05:19 AM   #9
oddmoney
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Re: Why does Bwin Refuse to Provide HHs?

Yepp. I had an issue with faulty withdrawals (double currency conversion) not so long ago. Had to write 3 or 4 times to get things sorted out.
Really wished, there were an institution which makes it harder for poker sites to behave the way they do.

Went through the complaint process of bwin, now engaged a third party resolution service whose conditions are that I no longer post in forums...so for the time being I'll pause updating the thread.
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Old 09-15-2020, 08:18 AM   #10
HanSoloDK
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Re: Why does Bwin Refuse to Provide HHs?

I guess then it's time for @OP to find another site to play on. Not be able to get your HH's is just crazy.
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Old 09-15-2020, 08:53 AM   #11
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Re: Why does Bwin Refuse to Provide HHs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by HanSoloDK View Post
I guess then it's time for @OP to find another site to play on. Not be able to get your HH's is just crazy.
I think its fine if it was a standalone playerpool and the site decided it was in the best interest of the players to not have HHs, but i mean cmon the site shares playerpool and exact same client (but out dated) as partypoker, If someone on partypoker plays hands vs you they can DL all their hhs (anonymously) and review the play, but you on Bwin can't. Seems like they are just lazy / it might cost them money to update client so they decide not to
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Old 09-22-2020, 12:43 PM   #12
oddmoney
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Re: Why does Bwin Refuse to Provide HHs?

Turns out, I have to restart the arbitration process, so in the meantime the last and "final" answer from bwin complaints department.
If you look at the two parts in bold you can see the very apparent contradiction.

The "soon to be available" part is mostly due to my sending videos and screenshots proving that the Web Interface cannot load all the hands for a given date, especially when they are that many.

This utter and firm refusal to provide something as basic as hand histories for just one day speaks volumes to the actual integrity of bwin. They prefer to exchange dozens of emails, go to arbitration, but not provide something that is available almost everywhere else. Even when I played at Microgaming (gg best network), I was able to request my full Hand Histories every week. The support prepared them in zip and I imported them. So, why does bwin refuse to do that for one day in an irregular event? Clearly they do have access to the exact number of hands (turns out to be a bit higher than my initial estimation).


Dear xxxx,

Please, once again be informed that regrettably, sending hand history records to our customers is a service that we do not offer at present due to a company policy and we are not able to make exceptions.

This does not mean that we deny you an access to this data. As you were previously informed, the technical team has confirmed that your gaming session started on 11-SEP-2020 12:27:21 CET with an available balance of 1,352.64 EUR and ended on 12-SEP-2020 00:01:38 CET with an available balance of 602.85 EUR. You played a total of 10,348 hands within that timeframe. In all those hands that you played, you took 11,137.28 EUR to the tables and took 10,387.49 EUR out of them. This amounts to 749.79 EUR net losses which is the exact difference amount between your starting and ending balance from that session. Therefore, no or irregularities were found.

Furthermore, we would like to kindly remind you that the option to view your hand histories via the Web Interface will be soon available to you and you will have full access to your hand history.

Meanwhile, we would like to assure you once again that we have taken all the measures in order to provide safe and honest space for our customers. An important part of this measures is a powerful Random Number Generator (RNG) employed to ensure fairness for all our customers.

Also, we would kindly like to turn your attention to this link:

https://www.bwin.com/en/p/SystemFairness

Here you will find relevant information on our system fairness and the independent audits of game outcomes which an external test lab conducts.

We would like to inform you that this is all we can do for the time being. Please, consider it as a final resolution on the matter. To the extent that you are not satisfied with our final response you may contact our alternative dispute resolution (ADR) provider, eCogra. You can find more information on the following link which will lead you to our Terms and Conditions page: https://help.bwin.com/en/general-inf...and-conditions

Best regards,

Your bwin customer service team
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