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Old 06-15-2020, 11:10 AM   #1
TylerRM
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Use of AI at 888poker

Today I have found a group of players, that uses similar/identical AI (artificial intelligence) for decision making in schedule tournaments on 888 poker site. While recently 888 has banned many players with ďUsing AIĒ ban reason, I want to help 888 and clean tournaments from cheaters.

Common alias diagram for the group look like that:



All hands were played in 2020.

Common signs of using AI for the group of players:
1) All players have big win rate BB/100 and strong red line for not showdown win, this fact is not accusation, but it shows similarity in the group and connections between players in the group.

2) Huge WWSF>47%, that obtained by playing in combination of GTO-style and using some good adjustments to the field of all players in tournaments.

3) Cbet Flop in position, around 75%, that close to solverís suggestions.

4) Big Cbet River in position, around 66%, they bet often using Big sizing.



5) Often, they use line Bet Flop(B), Check Turn (X), Bet River(B). Overall frequency (BXB as Raiser IP 62%. This strategy is rarely used in tourneys, beside players in my poker school, only few people using that play.

6) The group standard Probe Bet River is around 43%. How can you find and use strategy for high frequency BXB strategy and do not use High Probe bet River frequency for exploit strategy? For me it is a mystery, because to bluff with a Probe Bet River with a weak hand in average is more profitable than BXB strategy? How 44 Topregs (Very good players) have found to use light BXB and have not found to use light Probe Bet River, that suspicious. Programmer who has coded the brain for AI, should get some punishment for that.

7) All of them do not use limps from SB. At this moment of time, SB open raise preflop 57%, Open-limp 13% and 30% open fold. My version of this, because Limped pots are complicated to solve because of deep stacks, and the programmer has decided to forfeit the calculations. On other hand, probably they have not calculated limps yet and basic calculations was without limps and limps appears when they see some trigger.

8) Big Blind donk, after BB defense the use Flop Donk Bet(lead bet) 5% of times. Usually human players try to simplify the strategy of play and do not use donk bets, because in human world use these frequencies and at same time to be balanced is a extremely difficult task. But AI easily may use solver decision, that recommends to start flop play with a donk bet with 5% frequency.



9) Because some part of strong hand goes to the Donk Bet on the Flop, Check-Fold on a flop is slightly big, around 48%. That frequency is not common for players who like to fight for pots.

10 ) Low Check-Raise on the flop 10%, which is too low for active players with strong red line.

11) Another thing is overfold to a third barrel (continuation bet River) against preflop raiser INP, they fold 72%, that makes sense, because players on 888 site bluff not so often than they should. This is a good adjustment, that most people in the group have, but data sample is not big for every player in the group.



12) Low frequency 3bet BB vs SB in deep stacks. Frequency is (8%) for all players in the group, that is lower than 3bet BB vs BU (11%). I do not understand, why that strategy is implicated.



13) Very good feature that show similarity is bet with missed cbet from preflop raiser. In HU pot, bet against missed cbet is 56% in average, but in 3-way pots in same line of play, bet vs missed cbet against preflop raiser and blind check (SB or BB) is increased, 67% in average. This is observed for almost every player from the list.

14) Big Check flop (X), check turn ( X), Bet River (B) (as Caller OOP) strategy 52%. That is also rare strategy as BXB.

15) Big cbet flop OOP without position (64%), this is not a default strategy for regular players in nowadays. But at the same time, Check-Fold on the flop while we are raiser OOP without position is (42%).

After I have found common similarities in that group of players, I have entered expression below in Hand2Note in specified format and got the list of players which have these stats.



Screennames of players:
PaperBush
Lonelystrang
StrangeRouge
Quadrick
Halui
AllCash90
Rulle
Drozd676
MistrJackpot
Countrylove
SonOfWinter
ZinZiber
Pro100Bill
AnneB0nny
Malygos1987
CunningGreen
mr.Robbot
shadowmoon3
ropecutter
stopANDg0
Celebrimbor3
araikvip
Hard1ine
Desired
YupYupMan
forsaknbyall
Fokerok
Discharger4
Acefighter86
Gueekin
flashTrash
Helilga
Gidrilla
notionalist
Bloodyreveng
bullmad
AkaneTsunemo
Fourniti
neopet4
Truemaster89
GunsandGret
Timbio
SloanWall
Yasal

I have uploaded all statistic on a file server, you can download it and use in in Hand2Note and see how similar these players are.

https://mega.nz/file/mxsBHA5S#PrljyS...9XA1hegUmhAGfg

I am afraid that the list of players is not full, that list I have got after 3 iteration in the Range Research in combination of different entry conditions. The problem is that to get new screen name is much harder and requires much more resources than to get first 10 screennames.

In general, the statistics of each individual player are subject to variance and each stat varies in its range depending on the number of hands played, but there are no global differences in the statistics of these nicknames, so I believe that they are all in collusion, but at the same time I admit the possibility, that someone could get into this list by mistake due to variance.

I created a google table, where I showed key patters (statistics), where you can see what and how is different for people.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

It is very sad that many poker sites started to forbidden tracker programs. From information that some user shared on one of the Russian language poker community forums gipsyteam.ru. Bot creators using screenshots of hand history to convert them in text format in converter, to understand how people play against them and how to set AI. On other hand we (poker community) can not fight back, because hand history and tracker programs are forbidden.
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Old 06-15-2020, 11:24 AM   #2
ffsh
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re: Use of AI at 888poker

TylerRM,
And how come you gathered 1600000 hands histories for these players that you are accusing of cheating?
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Old 06-15-2020, 11:29 AM   #3
TylerRM
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re: Use of AI at 888poker

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TylerRM,
And how come you gathered 1600000 hands histories for these players that you are accusing of cheating?
a friend who bought them shared with me
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Old 06-15-2020, 01:11 PM   #4
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Thumbs up re: Use of AI at 888poker

Quote:
Originally Posted by TylerRM View Post
a friend who bought them shared with me
So it is okay for you to cheat but not for others?
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Old 06-15-2020, 01:23 PM   #5
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re: Use of AI at 888poker

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So it is okay for you to cheat but not for others?
If you play 888 you need to cheat. It's in the tos.
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Old 06-15-2020, 01:32 PM   #6
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re: Use of AI at 888poker

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Originally Posted by MonkeyPox View Post
So it is okay for you to cheat but not for others?
Oh come on, how else is he supposed to investigate those players?
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Old 06-15-2020, 02:10 PM   #7
ffsh
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re: Use of AI at 888poker

classic, a cheater exposes other cheaters. I suspect that OP runs a bots network and just wants to take competitors down. Boos to this guy.

NINzent, it's supposed to be 888's responsibility to detect bots and wipe them out.

Last edited by Mike Haven; 06-15-2020 at 06:59 PM.
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Old 06-15-2020, 02:12 PM   #8
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re: Use of AI at 888poker

This definitely seems like someone who got kicked out of a bot ring, or someone running a competing bot network, trying to get some retribution.
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Old 06-15-2020, 03:11 PM   #9
mirage
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re: Use of AI at 888poker

This is 888 team pro, it’s fine
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Old 06-15-2020, 03:53 PM   #10
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re: Use of AI at 888poker

How does spamming your own company every 3 inches help here?
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Old 06-15-2020, 04:05 PM   #11
TylerRM
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re: Use of AI at 888poker

ffsh

No. Sorry. I dont and never was involved into bot network. A week ago i saw very suspicious livestream on twitch where I saw a weak player "Aleksejs Meless" who made high-class decisions in expensive MTT games on Party. I decided to figure out what was going on, because a weak player who talks very poorly about poker cannot make such good decisions, but I didn’t have any statistics on the party and it’s not possible to get it, so I decided to see how similar botnets work on 888 and this is what I discovered.

I believe that today's ban on statistics is one of the biggest mistakes that has occurred for online poker. Having an open and accessible mining for everyone shows that the game is fair and makes the games healthier. The ban on mining creates an unequal situation for players, now mining is available for those who are willing to pay for it or develop special software and leads to taboo certain topics in the public domain.

Last edited by Mike Haven; 06-15-2020 at 07:00 PM.
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Old 06-15-2020, 04:18 PM   #12
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re: Use of AI at 888poker

Quote:
Originally Posted by TylerRM View Post
No. Sorry. I dont and never was invilved into bot network. A week ago i saw very suspicious livestream on twitch where I saw a weak player "Aleksejs Meless" who made high-class decisions in expensive MTT games on Party. I decided to figure out what was going on, because a weak player who talks very poorly about poker cannot make such good decisions, but I didnít have any statistics on the party and itís not possible to get it, so I decided to see how similar botnets work on 888 and this is what I discovered.



I believe that today's ban on statistics is one of the biggest mistakes that has occurred for online poker. Having an open and accessible mining for everyone shows that the game is fair and makes the games healthier. The ban on mining creates an unequal situation for players, now mining is available for those who are willing to pay for it or develop software for importing hands.
Some interesting, if not outright peculiar stats. Nice effort

You should post in the 888 thread, too, just reference this new one. I believe there are some players there that have uncovered bots and might have some more HH on these players.

Disturbing it is so big.....
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Old 06-15-2020, 04:32 PM   #13
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re: Use of AI at 888poker

Quote:
Originally Posted by TylerRM View Post
No. Sorry. I dont and never was involved into bot network. A week ago i saw very suspicious livestream on twitch where I saw a weak player "Aleksejs Meless" who made high-class decisions in expensive MTT games on Party. I decided to figure out what was going on, because a weak player who talks very poorly about poker cannot make such good decisions, but I didnít have any statistics on the party and itís not possible to get it, so I decided to see how similar botnets work on 888 and this is what I discovered.

I believe that today's ban on statistics is one of the biggest mistakes that has occurred for online poker. Having an open and accessible mining for everyone shows that the game is fair and makes the games healthier. The ban on mining creates an unequal situation for players, now mining is available for those who are willing to pay for it or develop special software and leads to taboo certain topics in the public domain.
You saw something suspicious on Party so you datamine 888?

Sounds logical to me.
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Old 06-15-2020, 04:37 PM   #14
TylerRM
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re: Use of AI at 888poker

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Originally Posted by MonkeyPox View Post
You saw something suspicious on Party so you datamine 888?

Sounds logical to me.
Yes, i write about that story immediately on the Russian forum, but I didnít have evidence, only guesses
https://forum.gipsyteam.ru/index.php...post&p=6546898

so I went to sort out the issue of how bots and AI work, anywhere, because the appearance of such stories scares me.
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Old 06-15-2020, 04:49 PM   #15
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re: Use of AI at 888poker

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Originally Posted by MonkeyPox View Post
You saw something suspicious on Party so you datamine 888?

Sounds logical to me.
M8, what's wrong with U? It looks like u like bots much more than a guy who is fighting with them.

Pretty logic that if u want to check whats going on u ll go the place where u can get some mining. The other way is jut to let all as it is now - but this is the wrong way, isn't it? U even didnt ask if Hero even play at 888, but says he s guilty in everything... Actually it looks like U are the one from botfarm here, not the Hero.

And also i saw some evidence on forums about bots on 888, also know that they ban some cash players who is clear, but bots in tourneys are still playing. Here's proofs and thats almost the only chance to change the situation. U d better help, write to 888 support about that topic etc, but don't be so stinky. I am MVP there and i alrdy sent it to MVP manager, but before i wrote him about players using scripts - and it didnt change anything.

Also it looks like smb in 888 (security) team can be in one boat with thouse boots so i think we need somehow to get attention from topmanagement etc

Last edited by sikkmyduck; 06-15-2020 at 04:54 PM.
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Old 06-15-2020, 07:46 PM   #16
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re: Use of AI at 888poker

Quote:
Originally Posted by sikkmyduck View Post
M8, what's wrong with U? It looks like u like bots much more than a guy who is fighting with them.

Pretty logic that if u want to check whats going on u ll go the place where u can get some mining. The other way is jut to let all as it is now - but this is the wrong way, isn't it? U even didnt ask if Hero even play at 888, but says he s guilty in everything... Actually it looks like U are the one from botfarm here, not the Hero.

And also i saw some evidence on forums about bots on 888, also know that they ban some cash players who is clear, but bots in tourneys are still playing. Here's proofs and thats almost the only chance to change the situation. U d better help, write to 888 support about that topic etc, but don't be so stinky. I am MVP there and i alrdy sent it to MVP manager, but before i wrote him about players using scripts - and it didnt change anything.

Also it looks like smb in 888 (security) team can be in one boat with thouse boots so i think we need somehow to get attention from topmanagement etc
He notices something strange on Party and instead of buying hand histories for Party, he buys them for 888? Is there a reason he didn't buy them for Party?
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Old 06-15-2020, 08:07 PM   #17
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re: Use of AI at 888poker

Quote:
Originally Posted by MonkeyPox View Post
He notices something strange on Party and instead of buying hand histories for Party, he buys them for 888? Is there a reason he didn't buy them for Party?
He already owned the Party ones and his competitor's bots were crushing him on 888.
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Old 06-16-2020, 12:04 AM   #18
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re: Use of AI at 888poker

OP, did you contact 888 directly already? keep us posted on their response please
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Old 06-16-2020, 12:36 AM   #19
TylerRM
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re: Use of AI at 888poker

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Originally Posted by ramabranch View Post
OP, did you contact 888 directly already? keep us posted on their response please
no, I donít have the contact of the person who is responsible for security, I thought that we would create a topic and someone would push him
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Old 06-16-2020, 12:38 AM   #20
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re: Use of AI at 888poker

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no, I donít have the contact of the person who is responsible for security, I thought that we would create a topic and someone would push him
That's why I suggested posting in the dedicated 888 thread. Their rep is there and several people had bots identified. They may have hands on these players too and it builds a stronger argument.
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Old 06-16-2020, 12:47 AM   #21
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re: Use of AI at 888poker

Suggest moving this thread there.
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Old 06-16-2020, 12:50 AM   #22
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re: Use of AI at 888poker

linked the thread there already
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Old 06-16-2020, 01:53 AM   #23
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re: Use of AI at 888poker

big shock everyone in that list is russian,kazak, ukrain? i hope they all get banned obv
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Old 06-16-2020, 02:20 AM   #24
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re: Use of AI at 888poker

Quote:
Originally Posted by MonkeyPox View Post
He notices something strange on Party and instead of buying hand histories for Party, he buys them for 888? Is there a reason he didn't buy them for Party?
can you show me a site where u can buy PP HHs?

cos i only can get HHs for PS, ipoker and 888. so maybe there is nowhere to buy PP HHs. ofc i can be wrong but i bet this is the case.
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Old 06-16-2020, 02:21 AM   #25
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re: Use of AI at 888poker

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big shock everyone in that list is russian,kazak, ukrain? i hope they all get banned obv
coincidence
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