Can someone explain what the players are actually doing when they use ai programs? Someone said they usually are using a 2nd computer and something mentioning of screen scraping. I have no idea what that is.


But does this mean players can literally display their stack size and everything and all the players stacks and hud etc on the table and that ai program basically tells them exactly what to do such as fold, call or raise and raise how much? So when they are in a pot against another player or many players, it will basically tell them exactly what to do? So basically the player is just copying what that ai program tells them to bet etc?


If so, how is that even allowed and why can't sites find out about those players?

Exactly. And no it is not allowed but they can't do anything becouse this program runs on another PC as u wrote so they can not detect it.

The fight against bots, which the author started, is a very important thing and as I think it should not be stopped.
I hope that the accounts that the OP had found have already have been blocked by the room and the funds from them are distributed among suffered players.
I want to ask 888Rep and players who play on 888:
Listed accounts disappeared from the site or these bots continue to play at 888?

Happy to say I have only seen 1 or 2 of those names on the list in recent days. I usually reg the $55/$44 tourneys and that whole list used to play. I have not been contacted by 888 about any sort of compensation although I have played 1000's of hand combined on that list.

Optimistic that maybe they will refund however pretty happy those guys are no longer in the tournaments as well, so that's a plus.

So if i get it correctly best counter exploit against these bots would be to triple barrel way more often then maybe usual, right? you wrote they kinda overfold river vs triple barrel 75%.

what else is there, it will be pretty hard to exploit if they play a very gtoish style

it doesnt seem logical to me that if OP was running a bot ring himself he would want the kind of exposure and counter scrutiny posts like this entail. More likely the trolls here are botting themselves...

Bots - 100% horrible for poker.

Datamining - also horrible for poker, but far less of an issue than bots.

Bots are out and out cheating. Datamining is more of a grey area but I think knowledge of the fact datamining exists will tend to provide a barrier for recreational players to enter the game. Long term, we are left with fewer and fewer recreationals and a diminishing expectation of profit for honest, hardworking players.

My real view is that winning poker players should gravitate away from NLHE and even 4 card PLO towards games with a more complex game tree where decisions have more dimensions, making it harder to program an AI to dominate the player pool.

A few of the accounts on that list are suspect. They play very similarly, especially noticeable in bubble play.

I'd add to the list PerTempus, Lavrusha1982 and MeloWin. I believe they work as a team, although you will rarely, if ever, see more than 2 of these players in the same SNG.

I've witnessed them soft play each other. Here's a HH I dug out, I'll search for more. Despite being a veteran of 6.5K SNGs, PerTempus couldn't find a call here.


***** 888poker Hand History for Game XXXXXX *****
75/150 Blinds No Limit Holdem - ***
Tournament Free 10 Max (Real Money)
Seat 5 is the button
Total number of players : 5
Seat 2: Player1 ( 6,889 )
Seat 4: Player2 ( 1,309 )
Seat 5: MeloWin ( 210 )
Seat 6: Player3 ( 2,243 )
Seat 10: PerTempus ( 2,849 )
XXXXX posts ante [15]
MeloWin posts ante [15]
XXXXX posts ante [15]
XXXXX posts ante [15]
PerTempus posts ante [15]
XXXXX posts small blind [75]
PerTempus posts big blind [150]
** Dealing down cards **
XXXXX folds
XXXXX folds
MeloWin raises [195]
XXXXX folds
PerTempus folds
** Summary **
MeloWin did not show his hand
MeloWin collected [ 450 ]

These are the worst. I don't play SNGs on 888 only cash and tournaments but I did report some similar situations involving regs to Stars and even they were somehow unable to find a problem. It's really starting to put me off playing SNGs.

Sadly I am discovering this thread only today. I play pretty decent volume of the mtt schedule on 888 , I recognize a lot of names in the list by OP
It is quite dissappointing to learn that I was competing against bots.

From what I see ingame , I believe this is still going on. In some 55$ and 109$ mtts I see some russian / belarus micro stake player taking some very suscipicious lines .

If you are 5 handed in a sng it can often be advantageous to keep the super short stack alive so you can use icm pressure later against the other opponents. That's likely why PS determined there was no problem, and at 888 it is not a problem/colluding every time.

Owl4ever, you said people should stop playing nlh and PLO and should find a game that is more complex and less solved, what game are you suggesting? I have no idea of a game with pokers liquidity, # of people playing, etc., on any poker site.

Good work op, I dont remember seeing mtt bots exposed, but its obv happening everywhere.

lost a hu to flashtrash in a $5r last year. 888rep where's my money at?

Sorry for the naive question but how are they able to make so much different accounts?
Don't you have to verify your account with ID and proof of adress ?

Big market for buying identities exists.

Alright thx makes sense , so I guess it is buying fake identities.

Then maybe pokersites should as a verification ask the user to take a picture of him actually holding his ID.

It would not solve the bot problem but should make their life harder to make so much different accounts

I'm a rec player who used to play on 888 before learning about this (now feels like there is no point)

Looked in my PT4 history and have 1300 hands / $670 of buy ins vs these guys, played vs about 2/3 from that list, here's a graph alias of them where they are completely crushing for 56bb/100 and ev 26bb/100

https://imgur.com/a/eg3PRIC

I emailed 888 about this and they give me a $30 mtt ticket (as a "gesture of goodwill" lol), and no answer why they did not tell me about it when they banned the players and confiscated their funds eg. I can see YupYupMan hasn't played since June

You should not play on 888 because they cannot ensure safety of games, they only ban guys that OP posted, who knows how many others there are - seems they are incapable to detect these players themselves and when they do 888 will probably just keep the money since we know they're not refunding the players

While in some ways these cheating scum are responsible for online poker now being truly dead (I know for sure I won't be bothering with it anymore), the sites themselves are just as responsible for their greedy 'cheaters get us rake so dgaf' attitude.

Shouldn't have to learn about being cheated 4 months later by a 2+2 thread instead of the site telling you itself. OP is a legend. Anyone else who played vs these guys should also email 888 support and get a pathetic $30 ticket lol.

Here is the lol email where they tell me they don't allow "boots and artificial intelligence" then start ranting about RNG (wtf?)

https://twitter.com/AL_GSXR/status/1350133462343233536

We have reason to believe more than a dozen accounts on 888 are using some kind of AI or RTA in MTTs on the client.

888 support has pooh-poohed our queries and complaints to them in emails and on this website. They usually resort to non-sequiturs like, "But the site has no reason to rig the RNG!" or platitudes like "We take game security very seriously." To be clear we are alleging that several accounts, mainly from Belarus, are using some kind of AI or RTA to crush the mid and high-stakes MTTs on 888.

We are collecting evidence which includes but is not limited to: results on Sharkscope; PT4/HM data we've compiled on their frequencies before and after the flop; the fact that they never chat, not even on FTs where deals are sometimes negotiated, or use throwables; and that none of these suspected players have any presence on Discord or Skype or this forum.

Unsurprisingly these "players" if we can call them that make some downright weird plays on FTs where the optimal strategy incorporates decisions made for $EV as opposed to cEV. On other occasions they time out on re-entries early in tournaments in the middle of their buy-in curve. Sometimes they walk the sitting-out BB.

888 has the information, they know many regulars are concerned about their inaction and inability to see what is right under their nose. It's about time they let us know what they've done in light of the above.

you're just a stupid vegetable! my nickname is lavrusha1982 .. only such a stupid animal as you can suspect the above players by bots .. Diabolik1014, Barberman, DolphinPhili, Aslicktype, Apiskeeper, maninice, JohnMakaron, Scrachcher, Mucksh1fter, Bob_marley, sittingoutt, sweettiche these bots were banned in August .. now there are clone bots .. namely: Jaglwag, kstags Samir220 .. I ask you to check the nicknames

The OP is a good example of how denouncing bots should be done, with a lot of meticulous and extensive data to back the claim that X, Y and/or Z are suspected bots.

Capablanca and GT1000 posts are on the other side of the spectrum (specially the former) with no data to back their claims, just "perceptions" (and insults too).

Posts like those make tackling down bot rings harder and do not help at all.

tl;dr: get some quantifiable data to back your claims or GTFO.

Yep, seems like every other day people are calling out random usernames in the main support thread with absolutely no evidence whatsoever

Im a long time regular at the 888 Mtt's and i talked with 2 other regs about this issue. Both of them, not knowing each other, have the same concerns as me. Im playing more then 10 years online poker and Im a constant winner. So im not one of the salty recreationals that are accusing someone out of the blue. There seems to be something really off with these accounts and I hope we can get a closer look into this. I wish im wrong but i highly doubt it after reading the thread and what i noticed.

I got suspicious of some accounts and i can confirm what other people told about the Bot/RTA accounts at 888. My database isnt that big and I only have on most of the regs in my list a few hundred hands. What i can read out of my data is that they are all playing a similar style, over aggressive style, and are making weird mistakes when it comes to ICM but as well when its a chip ev spot. To give u a lil example. Just noticed yesterday 2 spots that were super weird again. 1st spot was BTN or and BB only calls 40bb deep AKo. 2nd Spot was CO or and SB only CC 23bb deep 99 instead of jamming. Both spots were chip ev. What most of these accounts have in common is, that they have a very low sample on sharkscope (few hundred to max 1-2k tournaments) a avg BI of 30-45$ and their ability is always 80+. So no of these accounts are losing and they are all most only from Belarus. I do suspect as well some accounts from Kazakhstan and Georgia. Will update that list soon. If u try to chat with them none of these accounts will answer. Never. Contacted the 888 support about this issue but I highly doubt from what i have heard so far that they will take actions about it. I would appreciate if some other regulars would help me to increase the data of these accounts and build more evidence. OP already did a very good job and i would like to help. It must be our goal to keep the games clean otherwise we will have really trouble to keep online poker alive. I would love if 888 can be more transparent of it and tell at least what are the results of the accounts that found guilty. I never got a compensation from them or a email where they will tell u about this issue.

Here is the list with the suspected accounts. As i said the list isnt complete neither i can guarantee that these are all bots. Just the combination of their HM data and sharkscope makes them suspicious.

1) prokoponeto
2) eveileb6
3) altavisst
4) bibikons
5) leonby
6) marshallmatt
7) kasandrik
8) brezhnev
9) artodoxx
10) nabalkone
11) eleonovich
12) v00da
13) sk1lLand
14) cinnabon
15) sinta
16) zmichki
17) thequoa
18) dallmad
19) lagushatnik
20) Wellberg
21) AnySusan
22) Undervit
23) Iseeya
24) pro_active
25) Montanasharl
26) caustic
27) santafe222
28) Damofila30
29) Rustavelly
30) prokoponeto
31) payote
32) bad_romantic

Updated the list. I removed some of the names since i got confirmation that these accounts arent bots. Suspecting some more. Once again : I dont have hard evidence but i suspect something is wrong with these accounts. It need further investigation to proof If Im wrong or right.


1) prokoponeto
2) eveileb6
3) altavisst
4) bibikons
5) leonby
6) marshallmatt
7) kasandrik
8) brezhnev
9) artodoxx
10) nabalkone
11) eleonovich
12) v00da
13) sk1lLand
14) cinnabon
15) sinta
16) zmichki
17) thequoa
18) Wellberg
19) AnySusan
20) Undervit
21) Iseeya
22) pro_active
23) Montanasharl
24) santafe222
25) Damofila30
26) Rustavelly
27) prokoponeto
28) payote
29) bad_romantic
30) goodbadugl1
31) tinitun14
32) xooch (Kaz)
33) TwixandMars(Kaz)
34) carame1 (Kaz)
35) kasandrik
36) Jeflers (Kaz)
37) polygon (GEO)
38) kelfin ( KAZ)
39) call_in89

I did use sharkscope to look again closer into these accounts. Some of them i removed again since they dont look suspicious anymore. Please look at this similarties again. All accounts are from Belarus, Kazkhstan, Georgia or Armenia. Please check the pictures to see that these accounts look like there need to be further investigation.

https://imgur.com/Vstsfy2

https://imgur.com/T7hMByD

The sharkscope screenshot this time with a higher resolution, since they can look blurred when looking on the phone.

https://imgur.com/ilu1lkB

https://imgur.com/MJ3mJoV

hope return all the money thet the bots won

blas

sick_ayhan

Yeap, i also think these screen names are suspicious and had just a final table this weekend with 9) artodoxx and 27) santafe222 from the list in 22$ Sunday Mini Mega Deep. Both didn't response in chat and these sharkscope stats seemed weird as described. Also i had a feeling the acted kinda in the same timing window and using always the same sizing. Cost me some EV as i busted before "artodoxx" in 7th place. No evidence here, but a lot strange feelings. So i like to stretch out: We need more investigations!

Especially these belarus players are very strange.
same stats, sames times, same days...
made also some sharkscope searches...
@888: DO STH! ITS SO OBV!

Nice, i just started 3 weeks ago to add some 888 midstakes mtts in my schedule and now i come across this thread.