I hope i got this in the right spot couldn't really find a spot it looked like it fit.

hi my name is James my full flush poker-username is supernuts, and its a variation of that on a few of the other sites.

So i ran into a problem at a 1/2 cash game on full flush on 4/28/15 where the table buy in structure is 200 max. and as we were playing i noticed a player seem to have a lot of chips around 500.00 after i saw him go broke and re-buy. I didn't notice where any player was shorter from him winning a pot to have that many chips.
so hes about 300 chips more than hes allowed to buy in.I just assumed i made a mistake on the max buy in and continued playing. as game went on the player that had bought in for the large amount against the table rules, Known as (BILLPAN) and myself entered a pot together and he ended up going all in i have around 400.00 stack.i had some outs and also thought about the buy in to the table that i just saw him to buy in for a large amount.
And that helped me make my decision on calling him as i thought i could buy back in for the large amount as well. and have a chance to at least win it back. I called i lost, i went to buy in and its only allowing me to buy 200.

I'm a little confused here so i asked him (BILLPAN) how he purchased that amount of chips when the table max is 200. another player also typed in saying he was wondering the same thing,I cant remember the other player that typed that in now, but the rest of the table were these players . Spiritinthesky,littlepony,birdman123,av1111,mistam ogli.

IDK maybe some of you know them and they may remember this, I think it was (spiritinthesky)that had also typed in asking the same thing. (Billpan) did answer back saying there's a bug in the system that allows you to manipulate the buy in. buy in for 200 then immediately move all in and add another amount and so on to get as much as you would like at the table.And that i can do it too.

He told me fast and quick almost like i was going to be happy he broke the rules due to a bug to get the rest of my money he should of never had access too. I've never seen this happen when I've moved all in and added a reload it just adds the difference to the max buy in.

so I'm not really sure besides I'm not going to break the rules and am a little upset at this point that this player broke the rules to gain a pretty big advantage. I've always thought of this as cheating,almost the same as pulling chips you won off the table. and he had no problem admitting this. no one else at the table knew about this bug that would let you add extra buy in chips to the table. i immediately contacted live chat and explained that i feel like i was cheated out of some of my chips due to a player knowingly braking the rules, due to a bug in the system.

live chat Representative took a moment and responded back they knew of this and all players can do this, but they discourage players from doing this and taking advantage of this. well i don't cheat and i responded immediately to them to get this figured out, I gave them the info for the table so they could look at the player admitting this and other players not knowing this,

i said well if only some players know about this and are discouraged from doing this (braking the rules). wouldn't that give other players an advantage, he agreed. i asked since Full Flush knew about this and hadn't gotten it fixed how come they didn't send a email out to customers, so all players knew so either there wasn't a advantage as much or if you saw a player do this you could move tables or just not play the site until they fixed it, either way i think it should be up to us to make that decision and know if there is an unfair advantage going on.

The live chat REP said yes we should have sent an email out and that would be an unfair advantage. i also asked why this player was still able to play. while they were supposed to be looking into cheating or braking the rules or a player having a unfair advantage over others.

The REP responded we have to wait for management to get here and they wont be here for a few more hours, well i thought it was kinda important and figured they would get someone in there looking into this immediately when the sites,or players integrity was at stake.

long story short they basically told me this wasn't cheating and was fine. I think this was very much cheating. so this has been a few weeks and they sent me several emails back and forth cause i was telling them no i gave you the info to see he broke the rules and he knew he was braking the rules, and you guys also knew of this and told know one.

i have a part of a live chat message i believe it was the 2nd message, and a few emails.i wish i had got the other live chat. but i was copy and pasting and didn't get the whole session, wasn't really sure how to pull it off and didn't think about it with the first live chat, i honestly didn't think i would need it when i could prove this happened. ill post this chat below. i have some emails that go back and fourth for a week basically saying what i said in this post about being cheated out of a portion of my stack he shouldn't of had access to at that point and i wasn't able to buy in to have the same access to his chips. and them saying its not cheating and tough luck, ill post them if you guys want to see them .

I'm basically wondering what you guys think, and to let you know to pay attention when your playing that site, they have proved they offer no protection to the players, and wont own up to a software mistake that mess with the integrity of the game and cost you money to lose unfairly, so do you guys agree with me was this a form of cheating gaining an unfair advantage over me and other players in general.

Or do you agree with full flush and this was just fine that they were knowingly braking the rules to get your chips when not all players knew of this, or like me do not want to cheat, thanks every one . I'm sorry this was so long i just wanted to get all the information in here.

If you guys do agree maybe you can sign or say you agree in the comments i would like this to reach them so they know they cant just ignore the people that make there site stay in business, and act in a rude way and really give no explanation to the issue except for nope its fine.
:



hat session started at 12:46:17
Please be patient while you are being connected with an operator ...
james:supernuts 08/19/1980
You are now chatting with John
John:Hello, thank you for contacting us, may I have your username and date of birth please?
james:yes I was just checking back about an issue I reported to live chat this morning and also sent an email as well and I haven't even got an email confirming you guys are looking in to this or anything
james:supernuts 08/19/1980
John:Investigation usually take 24 to 48 hours
John:However we were about to answer to yourr email
jamesh ok
John:In regards to the situation reported. Our developers are already working on it.
John:In the meantime the option is also available for you.
John:We do not encourage players to do that and that is why just isolated cases are seen.
james:I didn't understand your message above what option is available to me
John:You can also bring more chips to the table.
james:what you are saying cheating is an option
james:im not sure im understanding
John:Cheating is not even part of this conversation.
John:We noticed a system glitch and we are working on it.
John:All players can do it and as soon as it is removed it will be removed for all players.
james:well that's cheating and anytime I have gone all in and added chips and didn't lose it just added the difference and if your saying that all players can do this nobody at my table even knew about this
John:We will be taking the required measures in regards to the player abusing of it.
John:That is what I just told you in the text above.
james:what did u just tell me
John:"We do not encourage players to do that and that is why just isolated cases are seen."
james:if I had 20 left in my stack and in a hand and added 200 and I doubled it would only add 160 to the table ive never seen this before

Hey everyone i would really appriciete your help on this. Its a pretty big deal to me and really it should be a big deal to anyone who plays online poker, If it happened to me it can happen to all of us, sign and agree with james username supernuts this was cheating.

i james.. Full flush username: supernuts am the first to sign this report on the unfair play on full flush poker, and agree it was cheating.

It's not cheating, it's doesn't harm the integrity of the game, and it doesn't cost you money. In addition, the deeper you are at a cash game- all else being equal- the more you are at a DISADVANTAGE to the other players. Unless someone is allowed to add chips DURING the hand, then dry your eyes and forgot about it.

I estimate your petition will reach a total of one.

MeleaB,
Thanks for your input. I respectfully disagree, and so did full flush. Although they stated that they should have sent out formal emails reporting this problem to the members and that this is unfair and should NEVER have happened they still refused to make it right. My only agenda here is to help and protect my fellow poker players. I have been playing for years, and i don't know one that wouldn't want to know this, because it becomes unfair play and gives one sided advantage. However, i appreciate your opinion.

You might get some more responses if you make the first post a little shorter and more direct.

Also maybe you can post a quick tidbit on it in this thread.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/28...6/index95.html

Thanks for your reply, I had actually thought about that. Although with this kind of issue I believe all the information really needs to be in there. as this is not only an important issue, But also a touchy one

I wonder if you could concentrate your text a bit, not sure how you think this works.

On any site that doesn't have auto-rebuy, when I go all in, I also rebuy immediately, while waiting for the board to be dealt. This because on some sites, if you're out of chips when the hand ends, there's no time to rebuy, you're sitting out the next hand.

On other sites, if I win, the rebuy gets cancelled. On Equity, it seems, if I win, I still get the rebuy amount on top of the pot. It's silly, but can't see how that's cheating.

Are you saying you can make several of these rebuys during one all in? If so, I could call that "taking advantage" of the silly house rules, but it's an advantage only if you're able to match up your stack to a huge stacked fish on your left.

Or is someone doing this (all-in, rebuy for extra chips) several hands in a row to get a big stack? If so, I could see this pretty costly for the 'cheater' in question. I'd be happy to take advantage of that.

that isn't cheating. It's a rebuy glitch that allows you to play deep if you want. You can take advantage of it just like everybody else.
Quit pestering support about this.

Why are people supporting the guy exploiting a glitch for profit? Seems infinitely shadier than grimming and we all condemn people who do that. If you were intended to be able to buy in for 200bb at the table you wouldn't need an exploit to do it...

because exploiting the glitch doesn't give you any advantage in itself. Additionally you risk losing your stack just trying to top up.
It's not ideal, it's a glitch that should be fixed. Nothing to make a huge fuss about though and calling it "cheating" or "unfair play" is ******ed.

I know how the guy did that.
First he goes allin(suppose he has AK,),while his chips are on the table, quickly make another buying, the system will assume his chips as zero, so allow him another buying.
When he win that allin, he has two buying on the table.
he can also try further buying.
This is not a cheating, but a system bug that everyone can exploit.
When I played at that network, I don't want to do this, but I don't mind other doing this.

LMFAO.

So that's funny to you... Here's a workaround. Whenever someone tries to "cheat" you after you doubled up just switch tables. Don't worry it'll fill in no time.

It's absolutely not cheating, and it doesn't give him any unfair advantage when he tells you how to do it when you ask him. Dude was pretty damn legit about it. If the client allows it, the site doesn't fix it, and the person who does the exploit tells you how to do it, you have nothing to complain about. What is legal is defined by the site, if the site isn't blocking it, or penalizing people for it, it's absolutely fair game. That said, some things, like grimming, make you an *******, but this isn't one of those egregious things.

If you want it defined as cheating, you might be able to achieve that, but it's not "cheating" till the site shares your opinion by penalizing people for it. Till then, it's an exploit.

you can push all in and do this little trick with out risking your chips in many ways doesnt mean hes doing it on bad hands, besides sites ban you for breaking the rules. so i wouldnt have the same opportunity, and yes having more chips does give yo a huge advantage why do u think they have a min and max structure. thanks for your comments though guys

I posted my live chat session where they say they discourage players from doing this and abusing the bug, and just because you can do it doesn't mean it isn't breaking the rules, Like when the player hacked absolute poker he could see everyone whole cards, so because he could it wasn't cheating?

It is against rules and if you break rules it is cheating. Try doing it live. There is nothing stopping you but if caught then pretty sure op would get half his money back.

That's completely different from this. That resulted in punitive fines, the police are investigating it, the site recognized it as cheating, etc. Try comparing it to something that is very similar. Stars allows scripting. They don't penalize people for it, they don't do anything about it, they also don't approve of it, they don't want people doing it, but it's allowed. Stars has decided not to take action against it yet, and when they do it's not going to be a punishment for the people who have thus far done it, it's going to be an inability for players to do it anymore.

I don't approve of seat scripting, I think it's terrible, however, if you play on stars and don't want to allow everyone else playing on the site to have an advantage over you, you have to seat script. This is a similar thing, though it doesn't give anywhere near the advantage seat scripting provides.

Having more chips does not inherently give you an advantage in a cash game. If anything, having less chips than everyone else at the table would inherently give you an advantage.

Just pointing it out because if you think that a person who has more chips than someone else at a cash game inherently has an advantage over that someone else due to having more chips, then you're thinking about something incorrectly.

FullFlush doesn't own the software they use; they lease it. So they don't have a lot of control over fixing glitches. I don't think that this glitch is really giving anyone an advantage. To say that a player is cheating or to say that the site is allowing cheating, I think, is overstating what is going on here.

Some live player was debating playing 5/10 one time, he said he only had $500 and he didnt want to get "pushed around". I was trying to encourage him to play, telling him its not a tournament, therez no Antes, no increasing blinds or levels you have to worry about. Well, he ended up playing, much of the table was playing very laggy, lots of light 3b pre, lots of straddles, bloated pots pre. Apparently frustrated from the aggressiveness of the table, this guy finally got up yelled at all of us for saying we were playing him/tricking him into playing with only $500 & stormed off. No clue why he wouldnt be elated seeing the table play that way, just make some thin value moves pre with limited risk & the opportunity to make sick fat value over the table playing much deeper than you.

However I do think playing deep can give you an edge on those you have position over but really magnifies your disadvantage out of position versus most any competent player, especially a winning reg.

Something, sorta, like this happened to me in a Brick and Mortar. Max buy-in was 500 bucks and min was 50 bucks. I bought in for 500 and spent the whole night, 16 hours, clipping the shortstackers and drinking. The next day, about mid afternoon, I had a pretty decent buzz and around 8000 bucks in front of me. The game was getting tight and boring so I was blind pushing hand after hand (I know...dumb...but I was pretty buzzed). I wasn't worried about losing because I had all the chips and couldn't lose my stack. Anyway, I pushed all-in (8.5 K about), got snap called, and lost to quad 9's. I lost my whole stack because somebody had been watching me bully the table and used a rule I wasn't aware of, max buy-in rules included buying in for the max stack at the table. I didn't even see him buy-in....just snap, stack gone....LOL...It hurts.

BetOnline site has the same glitch.