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Old 10-25-2014, 04:09 PM   #276
insidemanpoker
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Re: PokerStars Currency Exchange Rates

Quote:
Originally Posted by APTX4869 View Post
Michael J:

Michael: Apparently no one has noticed that there is an extremely simple solution to this new "special margin" everyone is bitchin about. It is a solution so simple yet no one has even mentioned it. This solution will ofcourse cover the and will also satisfy players to a quite high degree.

So this is my proposal:

How about, every time a player is involved in a pot, they pay a small percentage to Stars? Of course this only applies for cash games, but I also came with an equally brilliant idea for STT and MTT. Why not charge a small amount on top of the buyin, between 10 and 3% depending on the stakes and format? That way Stars will get some spare change to be able to provide their godlike currency exchange services.

Since I came up with the idea, I came up with a few names for this extra fee. How about "Rake"? I also liked "Quake" and "Tomaco", but "Rake" has somewhat of a better ring to it.

So yeah, it appears that I am a ****ing genius, but feel free to implement my ideas for free, I am all for altruism.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Haven View Post
I think that making a profit, (margin), from a player by charging the deposit or withdrawal fees is wrong because such fees are simply a cost of doing business: similar to paying good programmers; paying for good and more staff; paying for advertising; paying affiliates; and so on. Businesses don't have to do any of these things, but choose to to try to become the choice of prospective customers, and thereby make more gross profit out of selling whatever the product is that they are offering.

Banks are in the money business so charging fees is obviously an acceptable and essential part of their business; poker sites are in the poker business and should only be making profit from the rake from the games they provide.

Exactly. Stars is bragging they are competitive with banks? lol. THEY ARE NOT A BANK. Banks obviously make a portion of their profits through fees charged in banking. Stars makes insanely huge profits through the rake it charges for people to play poker hands on their poker site. The rake more than covers the costs of operating the site and that includes conducting financial transactions.
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Old 10-25-2014, 04:26 PM   #277
spliff
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cbt View Post
Why are we still playing in USD on the .eu client anyways?

GG Amaya, didn't think you'd try to run the site against the wall that quickly.
Because they insist to do the exchange, at 2,5%, nobody wants them to!!

And they prob don't pay tax on this in licensed countries, since my guess is that it is booked at a profit NOT generated from gambling, but simply a fee for an (IMPOSED) exchange, at 2,5,%, jeeez...

So only hyper-SNG, MTT and highstakes-players have a reason to play at stars know, right?

If you are a 50NL-200NL player (who are say, cashing out 1-2k/ month), playing at stars would be pretty stupid after this, IMO, since you will $25-$50 a month in exchange fees, and games are as good on other sites.

If i had large sum in my Pokerstars account (10k+) i would strongly consider to take them out now!!

Remember that Betfair made a MONSTER premium FEE for heavy traders, they were decent enough to made a fair notice about it though - so not as cunning as Pokerstars.

I could see Pokerstars change this in the same manner: to like 2,5% for deposits, and maybe 10% on withdrawals over $5k pr. year, or something like that, in the near future.

Trust me, they have thought about it, and if this works without to many players moving, this will there next move.

SNG-hyper-players, HU-players and MTT-players and high stakes cash-players are prob forced to stay at stars, because are ridic at other sites.

But winning small and midstakes regular cash players should clearly move now.

Pokerstars has shown that they implement this without any warning, so withdraw all you don't need now (i know you get robbed if you have to redeposit later), BUT

This fee will increase dramatic for high-end withdrawers in the near future, it's the only logigal next step, trust me!!

...and off course it will be without any warning, just like this one was!

*

I smell betfair premium charge in the near future for heavy withdrawers.

Get your big bankrolls out, now!

...because you won't get warned!!

Last edited by Mike Haven; 10-25-2014 at 05:17 PM. Reason: 2 posts merged
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Old 10-25-2014, 06:24 PM   #278
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Re: PokerStars Currency Exchange Rates

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monteroy View Post
Where did this idea of having to play "in the new currency" come from? Several people have emailed Stars asking if they could exchange within the client and cash out and have been told they could do that.
Here's the response by a senior member of the security team to my request for an increase of the currency exchange limits so I can withdraw tax free in EUR:

Quote:
Hello xxx,

Thank you for your email.

We are unable to process your request , we apologize for any inconvenience this may cause you, but we do not facilitate the movement of currencies for anything other than game-play.


Regards,

Christian
PokerStars Security Team
I advise everyone who suffers this new tax to inform the regulator who have issued the license under which they play about it. I can imagine that the combination of not officially informing all players of it, plus not disclosing the amount of the tax anywhere on the site, plus forcing the customers into an additional tax without giving an opportunity to avoid it beforehand to be at least frowned upon by the regulator and a possible breach of the license. Regulators have the power to make Stars remove the tax and they will not be pleased that Stars silently takes money from the customers which is not taxed by the regulator.

Since I play at .bg I'll be informing the Bulgarian issuer of the license. It will be great if more regulatory organizations get involved and ask Stars for an explanation. I think it's a good idea to point this situation out to the New Jersey regulator as well.

Last edited by antchev; 10-25-2014 at 06:33 PM.
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Old 10-25-2014, 06:43 PM   #279
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Re: PokerStars Currency Exchange Rates

So it seems that as a UK player who only ever withdraws Sterling, I'll be unaffected by this. Even so, I'm pretty outraged on behalf of the players around the world whose currencies are not accomodated in the stars client, and will now be charged for depositing and charged again for cashing out. If I were in their shoes I'd be cashing out my entire roll immediately.

Mike Haven's post is spot on. If Stars want to offer their product to players from these countries, they ought to be absorbing the cost of taking (and returning) their money. The idea of Stars actually profiting from excessive fees levied on deposits and cashouts is absolutely sickening.
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Old 10-25-2014, 07:16 PM   #280
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Re: PokerStars Currency Exchange Rates

just tried to withdraw $30k from stars, so had to send an email to support and ask them to change the ammount of money that i can convert from $ to € in my wallet, and they said "sure, just can you tell us why you want to do that?"

i said, to withdraw, cause don't wanna keep so much money on stars, when stars is coming with new rules everyday, and Portugal in gonna get taxed soon aswell

obv answer: we can't proceed , because converting funds, wasn't made for anything else than play

lol wtf, guess gotta lose those $800 to withdraw $30k unreal
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Old 10-25-2014, 07:22 PM   #281
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LostOstrich View Post
So it seems that as a UK player who only ever withdraws Sterling, I'll be unaffected by this. Even so, I'm pretty outraged on behalf of the players around the world whose currencies are not accomodated in the stars client, and will now be charged for depositing and charged again for cashing out. If I were in their shoes I'd be cashing out my entire roll immediately.

Mike Haven's post is spot on. If Stars want to offer their product to players from these countries, they ought to be absorbing the cost of taking (and returning) their money. The idea of Stars actually profiting from excessive fees levied on deposits and cashouts is absolutely sickening.
I think you will be affected pretty soon.

I play from Denmark, and the crazy thing is that i (and all other danes) would prefer to deposit in USD, play in USD, and withdraw in USD, making it no cost for PokerStars; but they won't allow it- -it's insane.

You cannot escape them exchanging, no matter what you do. For UK maybe some time for now, but cahs out all but what you resonably need to play, especially if they have not implemented the PokerStars-tax on winnings in UK yet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MartimC View Post
just tried to withdraw $30k from stars, so had to send an email to support and ask them to change the ammount of money that i can convert from $ to € in my wallet, and they said "sure, just can you tell us why you want to do that?"

i said, to withdraw, cause don't wanna keep so much money on stars, when stars is coming with new rules everyday, and Portugal in gonna get taxed soon aswell

obv answer: we can't proceed , because converting funds, wasn't made for anything else than play

lol wtf, guess gotta lose those $800 to withdraw $30k unreal
Damn, obv you shouldn't have told them that. You should have said it was for playing at euro-tables - but then againg, your then cashout in euro would prop not go through, before you played a ton of euro-table stakes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by antchev View Post
Here's the response by a senior member of the security team to my request for an increase of the currency exchange limits so I can withdraw tax free in EUR:



I advise everyone who suffers this new tax to inform the regulator who have issued the license under which they play about it. I can imagine that the combination of not officially informing all players of it, plus not disclosing the amount of the tax anywhere on the site, plus forcing the customers into an additional tax without giving an opportunity to avoid it beforehand to be at least frowned upon by the regulator and a possible breach of the license. Regulators have the power to make Stars remove the tax and they will not be pleased that Stars silently takes money from the customers which is not taxed by the regulator.

Since I play at .bg I'll be informing the Bulgarian issuer of the license. It will be great if more regulatory organizations get involved and ask Stars for an explanation. I think it's a good idea to point this situation out to the New Jersey regulator as well.
I play in Denmark were the regulation/licensing is similar. I think you have really good point; i am sure they don't book this as income from gaming, but only as a fee - and it is in fact a tax on players surplus - without notice.

Last edited by Mike Haven; 10-25-2014 at 07:43 PM. Reason: 3 posts merged
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Old 10-25-2014, 07:27 PM   #282
MartimC
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Re: PokerStars Currency Exchange Rates

Well lying to them would probs get my account blocked
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Old 10-25-2014, 08:25 PM   #283
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Re: PokerStars Currency Exchange Rates

Quote:
Originally Posted by MartimC View Post
just tried to withdraw $30k from stars, so had to send an email to support and ask them to change the ammount of money that i can convert from $ to € in my wallet, and they said "sure, just can you tell us why you want to do that?"

i said, to withdraw, cause don't wanna keep so much money on stars, when stars is coming with new rules everyday, and Portugal in gonna get taxed soon aswell

obv answer: we can't proceed , because converting funds, wasn't made for anything else than play

lol wtf, guess gotta lose those $800 to withdraw $30k unreal
....prob be worth it to play out the Euro tables as playing out transferred money is pretty low, least for now.... of course this is uncharted territory and a new PS
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Old 10-25-2014, 08:59 PM   #284
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Re: PokerStars Currency Exchange Rates

Pokerstars We use to be Poker!
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Old 10-25-2014, 10:17 PM   #285
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Re: PokerStars Currency Exchange Rates

lol at not being able to withdrawl lots of cash through pokerstars wallet, when they run >95% of games in USD.

LOL Stars

Last edited by Mike Haven; 10-26-2014 at 04:56 AM.
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Old 10-25-2014, 10:41 PM   #286
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Re: PokerStars Currency Exchange Rates

I really really hope that a new site pops up that care about the poker players of today that previous stars did. If I had money to start up a new site I would because I think it would be a insanely great time to do it. Every site is moving to "fast" cash and do not care about the players.
Imagine a new site that wants players that are serious about their games and have normal blind structure and just being old school stars etc. Think it would get a lot of players.
Stars was the flagship site before and got their players through hard earned work and everybody trust them.
As a poker player everybody should be worried about future poker online because the sites donīt really give a **** about the players, now everybody want to earn fast cash and they donīt give a flying **** about the players that build their business in the first place.

Last edited by Mike Haven; 10-26-2014 at 04:58 AM.
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Old 10-25-2014, 10:49 PM   #287
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Re: PokerStars Currency Exchange Rates

Quote:
Originally Posted by fulltiltjoker View Post
Just a few thoughts on what else Amaya could charge the players for:

- every time a player logs into his account, he should be charged for occupying a portion of the PS servers.

- every time a winning player is in a hand with a longterm losing player, he should be charged a few extra percent of the pot, for "giving him the opportunity with playing with a losing player".

- when a player demands any interaction with the pokerstars support, he should be charged, since PS has to pay their employees. (That is similar to what the german railway company Deutsche Bahn did.)

- when pokerstars does any sort of promotion that attracts more "fish" to play poker, regulars should be charged to finance that promotion, since they will profit from it.

- using the chat box should be charged.

- when a player decides to change any setting within the PS client, he should be charged. For no reason.

- Pokerstars should introduce new "designs" (card designs, table designs, special avatars, etc) that can be unlocked by paying for it.

- In PL or fixed limit games, there should be an option to bet more than the usually possible amount when you pay a small fee to pokerstars.

- auto-topup should cost money every time it is used.

- Rake in general should be a lot higher.

- the option to actiavate a PIN code for login security should be charged.

Those are just the dumbest ways I could think of that PS could implement to make even more money.
lol

Last edited by TrustySam; 10-25-2014 at 11:03 PM.
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Old 10-25-2014, 11:14 PM   #288
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Re: PokerStars Currency Exchange Rates

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Originally Posted by Hap_Hazard View Post
At the end of the day .. online poker really needs some other site to step up and give us a viable option to Poker Stars.
This is just never going to happen. Stars has such a monopoly on the poker market that no new site or any existing site will ever be able to make a dent.

All the talk about players unions, Stars going under cause regs will leave, how regs will or should be leaving for other sites is just LOL. All these threads popping up trying to start players unions and take action are ridiculous.

All that's going to happen is some bitching and wining in this thread and in a week it will all be forgotten, this thread will be moved a back a few pages and things will continue on the same as before, just with this new vig. Why? because no other site has the volume of players Stars does. Anyone wanting to play on other sites certainly has had ample time to due so over the years, where the games are softer. A new 2.5% vig isn't going to all of a sudden make people jump ship

I can just imagine the **** storm that will occur in 2016 when Stars makes significant changes to their VIP rewards as stated by PokerStars Steve a few days back but that seems to have flown under most's radar.
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Old 10-26-2014, 12:10 AM   #289
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Re: PokerStars Currency Exchange Rates

Ok, the thread has close to 300 posts... Most of them discuss the negatives of this BS.
Now it's time to think about solutions for this and future issues
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Old 10-26-2014, 03:21 AM   #290
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Re: PokerStars Currency Exchange Rates

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Originally Posted by 4-Star General View Post
Ok, the thread has close to 300 posts... Most of them discuss the negatives of this BS.
Now it's time to think about solutions for this and future issues
Here's one: how about letting people exchange their currency in the client and letting them withdraw it. I know there are still lot's of people who can't because stars doesn't support their currency.
And let some gaming authorities step up. Doesn't .eu have it's license on malta? No idea if they have any influence though.

Sent from my GT-I9000 using 2+2 Forums
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Old 10-26-2014, 06:48 AM   #291
insidemanpoker
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Re: PokerStars Currency Exchange Rates

Are they seriously giving people a hard time for opening a euro or pound account within the client and then transferring a lot of USD to those currencies before a withdrawal????

Again, nearly all the games are in USD, how the hell is someone supposed to claim the transfer is for playing purposes. Why make them do that at all? Just let them put their funds in their native currency, especially with the two above mentioned since you clearly support those currencies, and then let them move that money to their bank without this exchange cut.
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Old 10-26-2014, 07:10 AM   #292
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Re: PokerStars Currency Exchange Rates

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Haven View Post
I think that making a profit, (margin), from a player by charging the deposit or withdrawal fees is wrong because such fees are simply a cost of doing business: similar to paying good programmers; paying for good and more staff; paying for advertising; paying affiliates; and so on. Businesses don't have to do any of these things, but choose to to try to become the choice of prospective customers, and thereby make more gross profit out of selling whatever the product is that they are offering.

Banks are in the money business so charging fees is obviously an acceptable and essential part of their business; poker sites are in the poker business and should only be making profit from the rake from the games they provide.

If a poker site only took deposits from their customers in dollars, and only paid out in dollars, I would doubt if many players would complain to the site that their banks charged them fees for changing their home currency to dollars and vice versa. (Whether they chose to play on that site is another matter.)

Likewise, if a site chose to take money in pounds, euros, yen, or whatever, in the hope of gaining additional customers, and then paid back out to the relevant depositors only in pounds, euros, etc, (something again that customers would have little to complain about), their choice to do this should be regarded as a cost of business, and any fees they were charged by their banks should be taken out of their gross profit. The pounds in the customer's account could be changed into dollars at the table, and vice versa, at negligible cost to anyone, using whatever exchange rate was applicable on the day of transfer to the table.

When a site decides that taking in in dollars and paying out in euros is the way to compete for more customers, again, it's a cost of business they have chosen to pay, and the exchange fees should be borne by the site out of gross profit; which has been increased by the additional rake earned from the additional customers attracted because of their business decision. (If the gross profit has not been increased enough, then obviously the business decision was wrong and should be reversed.)

And that's all I have to say about that.
+1000 absolutely agree
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Old 10-26-2014, 08:57 AM   #293
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Re: PokerStars Currency Exchange Rates

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Originally Posted by anuj22 View Post
+1000 absolutely agree
But the real problem is that it is not possible to deposit and withdraw in the same currency - i don't give **** what the currency is, i just want to deposit in a currency and withdraw in the same currency; thats not possible at pokerstars, at least not in Denmark.

Maybe they could just open for that possibily for a flat fee at like $20 a month, for players WHO are withdrawing bigger amount, but thats not gonna happen, they want freaking 2,5%!!

Pokerstars are enforcing an exchange-service at a ridiculous fee, that no one is intersted in - the PokerStars-tax!!

Its like when a mobster comes to your restaurant at ask for $500 a month for taking care that your customers cars are not vandalised
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Old 10-26-2014, 09:13 AM   #294
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Re: PokerStars Currency Exchange Rates

http://www.pokerstarsblog.com/corpor...t-151895.shtml

Quote:
I like to think of it as bankroll management. The choices we make today aren't for short term gain; they're made because we believe they're the right thing for tomorrow. We'll continue to make tough calls to secure the game in the present and make bold moves to best invest in the future growth of the game. Our goal continues to be to provide the best, most exciting poker experience and keep the poker universe growing.

- Eric Hollreiser, Head of Corporate Communications for PokerStars.
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Old 10-26-2014, 09:42 AM   #295
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Re: PokerStars Currency Exchange Rates

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Originally Posted by sandr1x View Post
We're sorry you are so upset at our most recent changes but here are all the ways we have been and still are so great for poker. We like to think of our new changes as managing our bankroll (read: profit) and increasing it every way possible due to our buyout. Lots of shareholders to keep happy now and lots of loan money to pay back, ya know? What are you going to do about it anyway, play at Party Poker? LOL

On a more serious note does the short term long term thing in the last paragraph have anything to do with entering new markets like the US and creating global player pools or am I just dreaming/hoping that the new changes actually have more implication than just profit?
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Old 10-26-2014, 09:46 AM   #296
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Re: PokerStars Currency Exchange Rates

To still be the best, they can be A LOT worse, unfortunately.
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Old 10-26-2014, 11:38 AM   #297
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Re: PokerStars Currency Exchange Rates

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Originally Posted by sandr1x View Post
Quote:
PokerStars became the world's largest poker site for a lot of reasons. Many of our players, perhaps you, can reel them off: a great product, constant innovation, top customer service, unbeatable liquidity, smart marketing, having the most trusted brand name in the online poker world.
Okay, have only read the first paragraph while eating my lunch ... guess the first reason that would have come to mind for me though as to why PS has become number one was ironically by choosing to stay in grey markets - like, deciding to stay in the US after Party left ... while a poker boom was happening?

And then Full Tilt collapsed, leaving only them. But like ... maybe being number one, and thriving or engineering a thriving market, are two different things? It seems like the changes that have everybody concerned are because they seem like they might be 'redistributing the pie'-type changes, rather than ones designed to grow the market overall - and it's not just the shift in $ that's concerning people, but the possbility that the changes are actually contractionary to the market?

Guess while PS has a monopoly, since poker isn't a life necessity, while there may not be many poker service providing alternatives, there are some viable alternatives to poker for growing a roll, like the stock market, etc. So changes that seem like they might hurt rather than grow traffic are kind of concerning?


Gosh, should probably have finished the article first, but now my pizza's all finished and have to go grind ... feels like I was babbling, doh ..... I don't know .....

Last edited by TrustySam; 10-26-2014 at 11:48 AM.
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Old 10-26-2014, 12:05 PM   #298
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Re: PokerStars Currency Exchange Rates

Got back to the tables just in time for my break lol

Finished reading the rest of the article - guess he's trying to make the case that they're trying to do what's best ...

Quote:
We've made a lot of hard decisions over the years, some of which have cost the company a lot of money. In the early years, we bet big on sending thousands of online poker players to the WSOP, spending millions on mass-market television advertising and sponsoring scores of professional poker players. More recently, we invested heavily in stablizing the global online poker ecosystem following Black Friday; purchasing Full Tilt and paying back that company's players. We also spend more than most companies in advocating for online poker regulation and legislation that will create certainty and stability for players and for our company.

We've shown that our pursuit of doing what's best for the game, what's best for the livelihood and vitality of the entire poker community, is good business, even if it means higher ongoing costs from expenses like local taxes in newly-regulated jurisdictions.

The game is constantly changing and evolving, as is society and technology at large. Like any good poker player, we know that you have to adapt or risk being left behind. We're committed to keeping poker exciting, fresh and relevant to new players and to loyal grinders.
... like, was he trying to make the case that what's best for PS is what's best for poker, and that they're not just making a money grab for monopoly profits because they can?

Guess the thing that makes it a bit of a hard sell is the fact that all their costs and profits are public now ... and tables are getting harder and harder by the day ...
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Old 10-26-2014, 12:39 PM   #299
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Re: PokerStars Currency Exchange Rates

Quote:
Originally Posted by MeleaB View Post
Email exchange with Stars.

Me: I'm aware of the new exorbitant charges that Stars have introduced when depositing/withdrawing funds.

However can you confirm that as someone who deposits/withdraws in GBP that I can avoid all of the atrocious new charges by only keeping a GBP wallet, and that my automatic currency exchanges that take place every time that I buy into/leave a USD game game do not incur a fee?

Stars: Thank you for writing us and allowing us to be of assistance.

Please be advised that if you cashout from your GBP bankroll in GBP then you will not be charged this margin . However, if you cashout from your USD bankroll in GBP then the margin will apply.

This margin only applies to cashouts and deposits when PokerStars bankroll currency is different to the cashout/deposit currency.

I hope this information explains the situation for you, however,
please contact us again should you require further assistance or
clarification.

Regards,

Shweta
PokerStars Payment Services


Me: Yes, I require further assistance:

Can I deposit in GBP into my GBP wallet, then transfer those funds into my USD wallet and play using those funds- then at a later date when I am ready to cash out, reverse the process and incur zero fees?

Stars: Thank you for contacting us.

Yes you can do that. As that the changes in exchange rate margin where applied only to deposit and cashout transactions and not transfers.

Please do not hesitate to contact us for any questions or comments.

Regards,

Marilyn S.
PokerStars Payment Services.



So, (assuming UK player) don't cash out from USD account:



Transfer USD to GBP account:



then withdraw:

Good post thanks
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Old 10-26-2014, 12:50 PM   #300
Roger Mainfield
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Re: PokerStars Currency Exchange Rates

Ya that's a ****ing disgusting article. They are taking a ridiculous amount of money out of the poker world with their enormous rake, and doing it with a margin that is higher then almost any other business. Yet they need to impose more fees because "they're the right thing for tomorrow". Another great quote is "We know that some of these decisions will not be popular in all quarters" The last 3 changes are both simply worse for everyone but PokerStars, there was no upside in any of them, they all resulted in less money going to other people and more money going to PokerStars.

It's all a big bluff. Pokerstars has shown their financials, they have shown they are making extreme amounts of money at a time when the games are very tough and players are making less then they ever have. Putting out post like that at the moment is absurd.
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