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Old 03-04-2012, 05:16 PM   #1
Mike Haven
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PokerStars/2+2-users: April 2012 Meeting proposed

PokerStars Steve has informed me that PS would like to invite three player/user representatives to the Isle of Man in April to Meetings with Management and key staff to discuss various matters; where confidential data and information can be revealed to them, (under Non-disclosure Agreements), that is not appropriate for public display.

It would probably be best to have one user selected by us from each of the three main groups of players: Sit & Go; MTT; and Cash Game.

PS believes there are benefits of meeting and interacting with players in person. Face to face interactions result in much better communication and a better understanding of other participants. In addition, meeting face to face allows them to feel comfortable passing along certain confidential data that will not leave their headquarters in any printed or electronic form.

Representatives would have value time to express opinions and suggestions directly to PokerStars staff, including defending against any counterarguments. This is a major opportunity to try to change PS policy and decisions, as well as touring their world headquarters, meeting the people who work there, and seeing how things operate.

From PS' point of view, they believe they can gain from the meetings in two ways:

The first is to hear what players have to say. They state that listening to their customers has always been a very important part of the PokerStars decision-making process. They are the most experienced actual users of the product and thus able to provide important feedback on the software.

The second is for players' understanding of why PS does what they do, and that what they are doing is with good intentions and considerable logical thought and reasoning. What is posted here in these forums probably compares favourably with other companies, but they feel it's only the tip of the iceberg. They are a private company that doesn't have to publish financial details. There are some important topics that it's simply not appropriate for discussion in public.

Steve would like us to choose our three delegates within the next two weeks. (Note that PS does reserve the right to veto, but they state they will only do so for very good reasons. They are prepared to tell me any such reasons, in strictest confidence, and I will be able to state in public whether or not I think any veto is reasonable and legitimate. However, hopefully, this card will not have to be played; especially if we treat the selection process as seriously as possible.)

This will probably be the first of a number of relevant, structured threads. Let's use it to ask for volunteers and nominations. Perhaps a linked and dedicated thread for the "curriculum vitae" of the possible representatives, only, to give us all background information to help with our eventual voting process, should be next?

Please don't post random comments and one-liners, which may well have to be deleted if the various threads go off their main topic.

Thank you.

MH

*

Edit:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Haven View Post
The Meetings will take place on April 11th to 13th.

Additional representatives chosen by other forum communities will be present.
*

Edit: A thread for the volunteer and nominated users, only, is at https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/28.../#post31891519

*

Edit: The Voting Thread is now open, for next five days. MH. 3/12/12.

Last edited by Mike Haven; 03-12-2012 at 11:17 AM.
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Old 03-04-2012, 06:15 PM   #2
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Re: PokerStars/TPT-users: April 2012 Meeting proposed

Are they looking for general input or input in a specific area? I think if we have somewhat of an idea of what they are wanting to talk about will help us determine who would be the best candidates.
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Old 03-04-2012, 06:22 PM   #3
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Re: PokerStars/TPT-users: April 2012 Meeting proposed

I think they need 4 reps. Omaha was not dealt with very well last time. So a Cash - Holdem and a Cash - Omaha.
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Old 03-04-2012, 06:42 PM   #4
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Re: PokerStars/TPT-users: April 2012 Meeting proposed

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Originally Posted by MonkeyPox View Post
Are they looking for general input or input in a specific area? I think if we have somewhat of an idea of what they are wanting to talk about will help us determine who would be the best candidates.
I haven't been told of anything specific.

No doubt Steve will join in the thread/s, in due course, but I'd say that the agenda will be fairly open, and that any current perceived problems, resolutions and suggestions, (which, no doubt, will be discussed here over the next few weeks), will be fair game.

Intelligent, experienced, knowledgeable and respected users should be able to represent the players' perspective in any discussions in the same way that any ad hoc panel of regular customers might be interested in direct communication about the existing and future plans of any service provider with those who make the company's policies.
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Old 03-04-2012, 06:44 PM   #5
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Re: PokerStars/TPT-users: April 2012 Meeting proposed

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Originally Posted by R*R View Post
I think they need 4 reps. Omaha was not dealt with very well last time. So a Cash - Holdem and a Cash - Omaha.
Thanks, but it will be three, on this occasion.

The Meetings will take place on April 11th to 13th.

Additional representatives chosen by other forum communities will be present.
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Old 03-05-2012, 04:33 AM   #6
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Re: PokerStars/2+2-users: April 2012 Meeting proposed

3 is just too few to pick a representative for specific areas.

Which other forums will be represented and how many total will be there?

I think the reps should be general reps. Ones that will fight for the players cause accross all the games. There are plenty in this forum that are more than capable of arguing for all. With only being 3 reps I would hate to see people trying to represent an area. It is just going to lead to frustration of people feeling that their game is being left out.

I ask the reps please do some research on what else is available to help put points accross to stars.
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Old 03-05-2012, 05:17 AM   #7
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Re: PokerStars/2+2-users: April 2012 Meeting proposed

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Originally Posted by TheRaiderr View Post
Which other forums will be represented and how many total will be there?
pokerstrategy will bring some reps too (know at least one but there will probably be more)
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Old 03-05-2012, 06:09 AM   #8
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Re: PokerStars/2+2-users: April 2012 Meeting proposed

I think there needs to be panels established for each game area, with represetatives from all the sub games, so the cash game panel has NL HE 6max and FT, omaha, Ohi/lo etc. SnG panel has normal speed rep, turbo, hyperturbo, HU, 6 max, multitable, other games etc, and the same kinda thing for MTTS. Then have one player from each panel who gathers the concerns and organises them and takes them to the IoM.
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Old 03-05-2012, 06:28 AM   #9
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Re: PokerStars/2+2-users: April 2012 Meeting proposed

Should just be a Players Union obv
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Old 03-05-2012, 06:49 AM   #10
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Re: PokerStars/TPT-users: April 2012 Meeting proposed

Quote:
Originally Posted by R*R View Post
I think they need 4 reps. Omaha was not dealt with very well last time. So a Cash - Holdem and a Cash - Omaha.
This very much.

There are some games which are so heavily raked that need to be looked at.

Game - Rake in bigblinds/100 hands
10PLO 6max - 19.5bb/100
25PLO 6max - 18.36bb/100
50PLO 6max - 15.88bb/100

Compare this to holdem NL 6max
10NLH 6max - 10,2bb/100
25NLH 6max - 9,4bb/100
50NLH 6max - 8,46bb/100

I would like to have a REP for PLO since the last time this didn't get any attention.
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Old 03-05-2012, 07:38 AM   #11
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Re: PokerStars/2+2-users: April 2012 Meeting proposed

I agree that PLO needs very special attention on this meeting. I think that it has to be considered as a separate game type so there should be STT, MTT, NLHE cash and PLO cash groups.

I strongly believe that PLO cash needs completely separate rake structure from NLHE. If FLH has a different structure, I see no reason why PLO should have the same as NLHE.

First of all, it is played in a pot limit format which is very different compared to no limit. Second, its nature, dynamic and game flow are nothing alike NLHE. VPIP per table is considerably higher, hands per table hour is a lot lower, average pot is twice as big.

Frankly, the only similarity I see between NLHE and PLO is that they're both hold'em games. But then again, so is FLH. It is true that PLO player pool is smaller than NLHE but I believe it's bigger than FLH and, as PS Steve has mentioned in the discussions of the last meeting, it's a growing one. Special attention is much needed.
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Old 03-05-2012, 08:56 AM   #12
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Re: PokerStars/2+2-users: April 2012 Meeting proposed

I volunteer for this meeting. I have a wide range of experience in mtts / sngs / cash. I think I would be a very good rep.
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Old 03-05-2012, 09:10 AM   #13
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Re: PokerStars/2+2-users: April 2012 Meeting proposed

Edit/MH: WITHDRAWN

I volunteer for this meeting, for sngs.

I Grind this is my screen name

I have massive volume, great results.

I've been on the sharkscope leaderboard for multiple years.

Friends with the majority of the online poker community or on good terms.

I will also represent anyone who has had to relocate from america as a result of black friday.

I live amongst the largest relocated poker community. And maybe one of the biggest "online player compounds" in this world.

Last edited by Mike Haven; 03-08-2012 at 04:51 PM.
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Old 03-05-2012, 09:30 AM   #14
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Re: PokerStars/2+2-users: April 2012 Meeting proposed

Yeah I wouldn't mind seeing Awice, really hope someone good represents mtt players. Someone that knows basically everyone and is really active in the community, not just on 2+2 but in general. This is a really good idea, whoever is nominated will be the "President" of their section of game lol.

Oh yeah, and IGT is a good rep for sngs lol.
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Old 03-05-2012, 09:34 AM   #15
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Re: PokerStars/2+2-users: April 2012 Meeting proposed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex Wice View Post
I volunteer for this meeting. I have a wide range of experience in mtts / sngs / cash. I think I would be a very good rep.
Dont know Awice personally but based on 2p2 posts you have my vote as an MTT player
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Old 03-05-2012, 09:44 AM   #16
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Re: PokerStars/2+2-users: April 2012 Meeting proposed

+1 for AWICE best option imo, no offense to IGT but he cannot be considered have you seen his marketplace blowups he'd be insta-veto'd stop the troll +1's.
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Old 03-05-2012, 09:54 AM   #17
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Re: PokerStars/2+2-users: April 2012 Meeting proposed

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRaiderr View Post
3 is just too few to pick a representative for specific areas.

Which other forums will be represented and how many total will be there?

I think the reps should be general reps. Ones that will fight for the players cause accross all the games. There are plenty in this forum that are more than capable of arguing for all. With only being 3 reps I would hate to see people trying to represent an area. It is just going to lead to frustration of people feeling that their game is being left out.

I ask the reps please do some research on what else is available to help put points accross to stars.
+1 to all
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Old 03-05-2012, 09:54 AM   #18
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There absolutely has to be a PLO rep. It got so shafted last time even with a rep.

It is just such an absurdly raked game and it is hard to truly understand it unless you live PLO.
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Old 03-05-2012, 09:56 AM   #19
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Re: PokerStars/2+2-users: April 2012 Meeting proposed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex Wice View Post
I volunteer for this meeting. I have a wide range of experience in mtts / sngs / cash. I think I would be a very good rep.
Cant think on someone more suited than Alex to go as a representative cuz he has experience in all 3 main areas.
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Old 03-05-2012, 10:17 AM   #20
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Re: PokerStars/2+2-users: April 2012 Meeting proposed

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Originally Posted by TheMetetrown View Post
There absolutely has to be a PLO rep. It got so shafted last time even with a rep.

It is just such an absurdly raked game and it is hard to truly understand it unless you live PLO.
Anyone respectable in the scene wants to volunteer for this??
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Old 03-05-2012, 10:21 AM   #21
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Re: PokerStars/2+2-users: April 2012 Meeting proposed

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMetetrown View Post
There absolutely has to be a PLO rep. It got so shafted last time even with a rep.

It is just such an absurdly raked game and it is hard to truly understand it unless you live PLO.
In theory, once the voting starts, I guess it's possible that the forum users pick three Omaha players to represent them.

The fixed part is that there will only be three delegates on this occasion.
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Old 03-05-2012, 10:51 AM   #22
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Re: PokerStars/2+2-users: April 2012 Meeting proposed

I think I would be pretty much perfect for something like this and I would love to help the site with my knowledge. I play a lot of different things (MTTs, mixed game cashgames, plo cash, sit n go's, live events) and have a lot of knowledge/creative ideas about many things. I've also posted a lot of detailed feedback regarding wcoop/scoop/mtt structures on several occasions and a good amount of that was actually implemented in some way.

Plus, I believe I'm free those days
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Old 03-05-2012, 10:56 AM   #23
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Re: PokerStars/TPT-users: April 2012 Meeting proposed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Federer20 View Post
This very much.

There are some games which are so heavily raked that need to be looked at.

Game - Rake in bigblinds/100 hands
10PLO 6max - 19.5bb/100
25PLO 6max - 18.36bb/100
50PLO 6max - 15.88bb/100

Compare this to holdem NL 6max
10NLH 6max - 10,2bb/100
25NLH 6max - 9,4bb/100
50NLH 6max - 8,46bb/100

I would like to have a REP for PLO since the last time this didn't get any attention.
19.5bb/100 in rake lol.. what a joke
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Old 03-05-2012, 10:58 AM   #24
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Re: PokerStars/2+2-users: April 2012 Meeting proposed

Quote:
Originally Posted by antchev View Post
I agree that PLO needs very special attention on this meeting. I think that it has to be considered as a separate game type so there should be STT, MTT, NLHE cash and PLO cash groups.

I strongly believe that PLO cash needs completely separate rake structure from NLHE. If FLH has a different structure, I see no reason why PLO should have the same as NLHE.

First of all, it is played in a pot limit format which is very different compared to no limit. Second, its nature, dynamic and game flow are nothing alike NLHE. VPIP per table is considerably higher, hands per table hour is a lot lower, average pot is twice as big.

Frankly, the only similarity I see between NLHE and PLO is that they're both hold'em games. But then again, so is FLH. It is true that PLO player pool is smaller than NLHE but I believe it's bigger than FLH and, as PS Steve has mentioned in the discussions of the last meeting, it's a growing one. Special attention is much needed.
I couldn't agree more.
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Old 03-05-2012, 11:18 AM   #25
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Re: PokerStars/2+2-users: April 2012 Meeting proposed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Federer20 View Post
Anyone respectable in the scene wants to volunteer for this??
I don't think a PLO player is needed for this idea, but I do think that PLO has to be considered as a different game type. An open minded unselfish person who understands rake and the money flow between stakes and different game types is more than enough.

I understand that people who play NLHE or tournaments are not aware of the PLO dynamics and don't care about the quality of those games. But the truth is if we have more balanced and well tweaked conditions across the board, all game types will see an increase both in quality and volume.

Having a game so heavily raked is no good for anyone cause it only leads to a deflux of players.
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