They're not sending HHs and they're probably going out of business. It's pretty much been determined that they're pulling shady **** over there and the site shouldn't be used

I looked last night and there were 28 people playing there. I've seen home games with more traffic.

cliff notes?

dont play at pitbullpoker

fyp

This is my 1st post on this thread so excuse me if I am a bit slow on some of the discussion. It’s also quite a long thread now, with a lot to take in. I will not respond to a few of the usual hater posts (usually anti-Pitbull although occasionally plain nasty) you always get on 2p2, as OP is not one of them, and raises decent points.

Just some background first, I played at Pitbull from September 2007 to June 2008, as a recreation player playing their guaranteed Tournies and a little microstakes 6max. I withdrew my roll to deposit on a site that suited HHs for HEM in October 2008. I never had any problem with them. I play 100nl FR and 6max now but then I was just starting out, and they were ideal for a beginner like me. I never played at the levels you did at Pitbull. I have a bit of a soft spot for the site. I guess as it is one of a kind, even though it does have awful software, they did think they were unique in the user not having to download anything, which appealed to me at the time. I will pre-empt the following by saying I do not believe the site is rigged in any way, and any problems it suffers from would be accidental rather than deliberate.

From what I have read I understand the following:

Original complaint was that there was a superuser, and OP posted some examples (without HH) of why he had come to that conclusion.

OP had dialogue with Pitbull who said the HHs were available for download. OP wanted them in a format that he could distribute. Pitbull said they were not prepared to do this, and that these terms were in place when OP signed up.

OP said he was a winner on the site.

OP said he is a winner in poker, quoting 7 figures over a period of time, (so I am imagining an income of $75k min per year)

OP and Pitbull were in dialogue for some time privately but could not reach agreement.

OP said if he did not get what he wanted (HHs in the format that was good for him, to help him “prove” there was a superuser account) he would go public. Pitbull gave up on the debate and told him to go ahead.

OP originates this thread. OP publicly accuses Pitbull of superuser, but without any HHs to publish. OP says he does not have the time to convert Pitbull HHs to OP’s choice of HHS. OP is offered a service where other 2p2 users will write short programme to convert Pitbull HHs to PT/HEM format for modest fee. This offer does not appear to be taken up. Instead, OP pursues HHs from Pitbull through this thread. Pitbull may or may not have agreed to give HHs in requested format, but that does not appear to have materialised.

Thread morphs/dilutes from a superusers accusation into an “investigation” of Pitbull’s credentials and set up, and a new accusation that the Flash platform they use is insecure.

From where I stand therefore:
1. In pages of threads you still have no hard evidence of a superuser account. You have published no HHs so far. There have been a few nonsense threads which appear to weaken the whole argument (from memory the 52s hand beaten in showdown by the 63s, again with no HH published and a bit of backtracking by that particular poster, losing its credibility, but nothing to do with OP)
2. Maybe you have a point about the security of the software platform, but it’s unfortunate you choose to mix it up in this thread. You should have started a separate thread for this. Security and potential hacking is different than a specific and deliberate attempt by the software/company to see and play with a superuser account.
3. Having played at Pitbull myself, I would say its one of the fishiest (in terms of players) sites I have ever played at, and I saw some very strange plays. This is because it has a generous freeroll system which attracts many beginners. It did not stop me walking away a decent winner (I won one of their freerolls, took that to cash, got it up to $50, won one of their $200 guarantees, lost a few and then won their daily $1000 guaranteed rebuy. I cashed out $510 and left $25 there). There were never more than 50-100 players ever on the site, almost all at $25nl and below. It’s therefore amazing that the effort and risk that goes into setting a superuser account (effort in ensuring lack of detection) versus the effort in actually getting a pokersite launched would figure where the stakes and volume are so miniscule. Furthermore, it was the same small group of players there every day, hell, they even formed their own league….There was a considerable amount of nonsense spoken in the chat box, from all the regs who got to know each other, and I just find your accusations of deliberate cheating by Pitbull very hard to believe, and ESPECIALLY without evidence, as I have already said. Very simply, the regs would have fished it out between them. Many posters on this thread have laughed at the tiny number of players, and infer that they will soon be out of business, but the fact of the matter is, they have always had a tiny user base.
4. Whether the founder or owner of the site has a criminal record is conjecture and again strays from the immediate facts, Start another thread, or it just becomes gossip. “no smoke without fire” and all that nonsense. It’s irrelevant. Maybe the guy’s a reformed character, maybe he made a mistake….who cares.
5. Show me a completely “clean” poker site and I will show you a Casino that allows flying pigs. Just have a search on this forum or Google for “who owns Fulltilt” for example. Poker sites are about loopholes, offshore accounts and multiple umbrella companies. Yeah we don’t feel entirely comfortable about it, and if it goes too far stuff will happen to regulate (UB/AP scandal) but we tolerate it cos we want to have online poker continue in its current set up. Or not….maybe you are into the whole “gambling is dirty, and run by corrupt thugs which in turn corrupt the masses so ban it” right-wing USA thing, which surprises me as you appear to be a serious player.
6. Maybe there WAS a security breach, maybe Pitbull ARE just a tiny set up trying to compete with the big guys and making a few mistakes, blah blah, or maybe not. That is entirely different from destroying the site via this forum for accusing them of cheating players deliberately.

To summarise therefore

OP, you seem like a bright enough guy, and you have some good points to make but you tend to post opinion as if it is fact, and after a while, without any hard evidence it’s difficult to take you seriously. I can’t say whether you are right or wrong, but you I don’t think it’s right for you and your group to keep banging on about this publicly until you either translate the HHs yourself and post them for all to judge or take it to the relevant court in whatever region is applicable to get some kind of ruling. If, contrary to what Pitbull have said earlier, you cannot download these graphical history formats which do not contain the text data, and they won’t/can’t give you the ones you need then I would still argue the following…..

If you wanted to play on sites that had a HH download system to suit your own requirements, you should have checked their terms and conditions before signing up to play there.

I hope this is a constructive addition to your discussion. As I said I made the time to post as I have a soft spot for the site.

Let me clarify i few things:

-Some guys were kind enough to develope a script to retrieve histories, free of charge. I have posted links in this thread to download the script. A few people tried it and said it works. I can't try it as my account has been blocked.

-Before my account was blocked, I was attempting to use the script, and either the servers were overloaded or my hands had been removed from the server.

-Pitbull has the capability to deliver the histories and chooses not to. Before they stopped responding they gave me 1000 hands that appear to have been handpicked to be totally useless.

-Numerous lies and wrongdoing have been documented in this thread. I'm not gonna repost everything again. My opinions are irrelevant, there is plenty of factual stuff in this thread that shows pitbull to be dishonest and/or incompetent.

Thanks for the thoughtful post. I agree with a lot of what you had to say.

BTW I am still working on putting together my summary to send to affiliates, gov authorities etc...It will be 100% factual no opinions. When I am done I will post it here too and maybe it can be edited in to the first post so people don't have to dig through for cliffs. I know I said I would do it Monday but i been busy playing this week and have been putting it off, hoping they would pull through with those histories or at least a response. I should have it done by the end of the week though.

Pokertightrope, I think your main point is that chesterboy needs to either post the HH's or don't make any accusations. I think you're missing the very important point that chesterboy doesn't have the HH's to post. He's said repeatedly that once/if he gets them, he'll post them. He's received the last 1000 hands that he played on the site, but those aren't the ones that made him suspicious.

PB has promised to make all of the HH's available. They obviously haven't done that yet, and PBDave has stopped posting in this thread to even let us know whether PB plans to keep their promise to make the HH's available.

athletic, i understand that, and note my last 2 paras in my post above yours respond to that. But I think we need to make a judgement between unwilling to supply the relevant HHs or unable to supply the HHs based on the info within the thread combined with our knowledge of Pitbull. I have tried to balance OPs and that group (Pitbull unwilling) with my own experiences (Pitbulls set up and PR not able/incompetent perhaps, but not crooks).

But without the HHs, the thread stalls, and takes a different direction, and it is that which prompts me to comment.

[quote=pokertightrope;12596459]Whether the founder or owner of the site has a criminal record is conjecture.[quote]

Hi "Pokertightrope"...

You raise some points in your post, but Kevin's background is not conjecture, I'm afraid. You also take a familiar line that chesterboy cannot prove the guilt of Pibull. However, what needs to be realised is that Pitbull has the capacity to provide the proof that it is innocent of the claims laid, in the form of hand histories, but these have not been, and still are not forthcoming, despite promise after promise, dating, initially, from sometime last year. Dave, as you probably well know, claims that "innocence is the natural state", or something similar, but, in the light of the facts that we have, namely that Pitbull has claimed to have a license which has never existed, that it has claimed to be owned by a company which ceased to trade at the beginning of 2008 (and had almost no turnover) and has suddenly found itself in Cyprus, that it transmits unencrypted (hello!) card data and then abruptly deletes requested hand histories, you would expect them to offer up these hand histories as a matter of course - we are clean, see for yourselves!

Their representative, as you probably know, has disappeared from this thread, despite posting in others, their website is still misleading (emails answered in 20 minutes? I don't think so), and their security protocol is non-existent. Yet they still refer to a "security" and "accounts" department when looking for excuses, presumably in the same room. Maybe we are meant to believe that it takes a great deal of time for these departments to offer up their data - we are, of course, still awaiting details of PB's - ahem - "security department" and their credentials, and, as in so many things, have been for ages.

PB's silence in this thread is leading people to accuse chesterboy of making things up, but absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. All PB need to do is provide the hand histories, and then we will be able to submit the data to an impartial observer to see where the truth lies. As it is, how can innocence be the natural state when evasion, lies and subterfuge are and, apparently, have always been the order of the day from the start for Pitbull?

Like the owner of the site accidentally sold illegal cable boxes, etc.?

Wrong. Pitbull said they would provide the hand histories for months and finally after everyone on 2p2 complained about the necessity of having hand histories available Dave said they were revamping their site to make them more easily accessible. Since they still aren't available and haven't been sent to OP this is an obvious stalling tactic.

Irrelevant
Wrong again. Dave repeatedly told OP that he would provide the hand histories then later said that this was always policy, he could get them one hand at a time like everyone else, etc.

Wrong yet again. OP took up offers but Pitbull suspiciously pulled all hand histories from the site at this point.



So this weakens OPs point or strengthens it? If Pitbull Poker was on the up and up they would be vehemently proving their innocence.

Since the superusers could be accessing information this way instead of the way the AP scandal went down I disagree.

Ummm a reg did fish it out and wants hand histories to validate his claims. Pitbull Poker isn't providing hand histories.

Maybe Dave could have provided the requested hand histories months ago and this thread would never have been started.

Such an obvious Pitbull Poker shill..........hi dave?

sigh. i tried to be constructive about my post, but after a sensible few postings we go back to this kind of rhetoric which just kills the debate and destroys threads.

have it your way prana, cos i wont reply to such a thoughtless post.

Cmon Dave, treat us with the lack of respect you think we deserve. It's so obvious it's you - even your phrases are the same!

Oh my, I just read this bit, and I'm still laughing! UK or Cyprus or Costa Rica or Panama or British Virgin Islands or...

Yes poking holes in your story by recalling what actually happened is definitely thoughtless. Im sorry.

Really? Really, Dave - sorry - pokertightrope? Which site would you be talking about there? Most sites have the licence they claim to possess and have not only a number for that licence, but also a legitimate contact address, are based where they claim to be based, have prompt cashout, non-contradictory terms and conditions and don't require players to post on forums to get things to happen, only to have a representative request PMs, presumably to get things done in private.

How strange that Pitbull was licensed and registered in the UK until chesterboy & co. found out that this was nonsense. How strange that Pitbull was securely encrypted until chesterboy & co, found out that this was nonsense. How strange that Pitbull could provide hand histories until - well, you get my point. Poker sites - at least Pitbull - have only been about loopholes, offshore accounts and multiple umbrella companies since we exposed it here at 2+2.

Dave - either post as yourself or don't post.

His post was anything but thoughtless. I suspect he spent atleast 30minutes quoting, correcting, and rebutting each of your statements. However, I do think quitting at the first sign of a debate is thoughtless.

I have all ready stated I have nothing against PB . But Prana's post was right on and not thoughtless . If PB would give up the HH would solve a lot of problems .

I strongly believe I was cheated on pb. I also believe the pb knew the cheating was taking place. I also believe they cant give up the hh because it shows that cheating took place. PB knows there is no proof with out the hh.

Tightropes post was excellent, and Prana's response was also excellent, but then Prana has to ruin it with that last sentence:

Of course this will irritate Tightrope, it was a dumb thing to say and now we can waste 20 posts calling each other names.

I'm still not sure where I come down in all this. Lack of a license, selling illegal cable boxes, all that sort of stuff doesn't really bother me. Many, maybe even most, small sites are owned by shell companies, and they operate out of countries with useless or nonexistant laws.

I've known and propped with Chester for several years and know he's a good player and not an "online poker is rigged" fruitcake.

He and several other players who I know have said they saw really bizarre plays by their opponents (at the higher stakes only) and those plays turned out to be right 100% of the time.

I'm still not convinced PitBull "refuses" to provide the hand histories, they may just be so incompetent that they lost them or the system automatically deleted them after a period of time.

Some players have been complaining about cashouts the last couple weeks, but I know for a fact many cashouts, some large were processed well after this story broke. That doesn't seem like the action of theives.

I know little or nothing about computer systems, but those who do know say PitBull's security is pathetic.

If I had to guess, and it's only a guess, and based on everything in all 950 posts. I would say someone has access to hole card data. This could be PitBull owners, it could be a hacker, or it could be a former employee or software developer. I think former employee is most likely.

In any event, no matter what is going on, there is clearly enough suspicion and circumstantial evidence to stay away from the place until PitBull provides reasonable answers to the questions we have.

Cause'n'effect - Dave and Kevin just spent the last week coming up with a brilliant way to derail the thread and there you go talking nonsense about proof that Pitbull could be shady.

They just want to post under fake names and pretend that they are a unbiased forum posters. Is there really anything wrong with that?


pokertightrope - can I get a "going out biz" deposit bonus on Pitbull?? PM ME!

I guess you would feel absolutely comfortable if Russ Hamilton started a new site?

How is a persons past record irrelevant?

If an individual breaks the law to make money, you better believe that I would deal with this person differently than someone who has a good reputation.

To all,

Just a clarification, I am not "pokertightrope", I do not have any need or interest in posting under a false name. You can ask for an IP check, I only use one account at 2+2 and you all know it very well.

If anyone has any real question or issue you can email me to dave @ pitbullgaming.com. We are not providing further support on public forums. Thank you.

Dave Brenes
Network Manager
Pitbull Poker
Pitbull Partners

Dave, can you give us an update on the request of hand histories? Never mind anything else, and this question is very reasonable

I think its pretty clear that Dave has been following this thread and considers this to be included in what is unreasoanble.

That's the problem here Dave, sure there is some muck in there, but rather than be hostile, why not respond more thoroughly to the real concerns in this thread? If there is no wrongdoing on the part of Pitbull, and the security leaks are fixed, you might find 2+2rs coming to the site. Its clear that these concerns go far beyond "support".

All affiliates promoting pitbull on the top 4 pages of google results for "pitbull poker" have been contacted.

Still gotta contact Panama gaming people and their host their. Don't think I'm gonna bother with the Costa Rica government, I don't think they will care.