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View Poll Results: Is Online Poker Rigged?
Yes 3,197 34.85%
No 5,197 56.65%
Undecided 780 8.50%
Voters: 9174. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 07-24-2008, 12:36 AM   #151
s0crates
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Re: Is Full Tilt rigged?

Of course, playing devil's advocate here... they could have the most random numbers ever, with a super expensive hardware RNG certified by all the top dudes in the RNG business, but if they don't use them...

I mean, the accusations around here are basically that X-site intentionally deals specific hands to specific players with the intention of increasing their profit. So, why can't they just outright stack the deck? Of course, this would be a detectable bit of their server-side software, which should be regularly audited as well.
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Old 07-24-2008, 01:14 AM   #152
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Re: Is Full Tilt rigged?

Every major site uses a hardware RNG. Stars even has links to the specific model they use (it uses entropy from micro temperature fluctuations) with extensive documented proof.

FTP also uses a well-known brand.
***********************ftp used a well known brand, info is not on there site and testing of it is not on there site. Therefore, i don't know what they use and please don't direct me to some forum post of a site that was popular 5 years ago. Anyways, who cares right people still play and it appears to be within normal guidelines. Like i said, stars needs to cancel the vip program and the fallout should be minimum, looks like a no brainer to me.
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Old 07-24-2008, 01:15 AM   #153
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Re: Is Full Tilt rigged?

Random Number Generator (RNG) and Shuffling
Creating a fair and quality gaming experience for our players is our highest priority at Cake Poker. The solution chosen for RNG/Shuffling is critical to ensuring a fair game for all players. Consequently, Cake Poker investigated many systems and algorithms before deciding on implementation of what we believe is a superior solution.

Cake Poker’s RNG solution ensures the even distribution of cards whereby no sequence or relationship can be discovered in any way. The RNG solution is unaware of what’s going on in the game itself, so when the game requests a random card, the RNG has no idea of whose turn it is nor how the game is being played. We believe this is the ultimate impartial tool, better than the physical shuffling of cards.

Cake Poker uses the cryptographically-secure RNG system found in Microsoft’s CryptoAPI. "Cryptographically secure" means that the RNG is so completely random that even a large amount of computer analysis cannot predict or detect patterns in the output, a fact that has been validated by the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST).

Technical Systems Testing RNG Certification
Technical Systems Testing verifies compliance with any applicable requirements from the following sets of standards and specifications:

Generally accepted industry standards for highly regulated jurisdictions, and
Cake Gaming's technical specifications for their RNG
Microsoft CryptoAPI RNG
Microsoft’s CryptoAPI RNG complies with Federal Information Processing Standard 186-2 appendix 3.1, using SHA-1 as the G function. It has been validated by the NIST’s Cryptographic Module Validation Program. Details on this may be found at
http://www.microsoft.com/technet/arc.../fipseval.mspx.

It is important to note that computers are deterministic machines, and as such, they cannot produce truly random numbers. For this reason one often refers to Pseudo Random Number Generators (PRNG). Pseudo implies that a PRNG does not produce truly random numbers, but numbers that are random enough for a specific practical use.

The validation of Microsoft’s CryptoAPI by the National Institute of Standards and Technology proves the PRNG system used is highly random and highly secure as it is a critical building block for the CryptoAPI. For more information on NIST processing standards and security validation, please visit:

Federal Information Processing Standards 140-1 and 140-2:
http://csrc.nist.gov/publications/fips/index.html
Cryptographic Standards Validation Program at NIST: http://csrc.nist.gov/cryptval/
Computer Security Resource Clearinghouse: http://csrc.nist.gov/index.html
If you require any further information about the fairness of our games or Cake Poker’s RNG/Shuffling implementation, please contact us at support@cakepoker.com.

Terms Of ServicePrivacy Policy
*** cake wasted there time posting this and spending money on testing...dumb mgmt
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Old 07-24-2008, 01:16 AM   #154
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Re: Is Full Tilt rigged?

seems like there is many systems out there for rng or randomness of cards..cake poker just told you so **********Consequently, Cake Poker investigated many systems and algorithms before deciding on implementation of what we believe is a superior solution.
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Old 07-24-2008, 01:19 AM   #155
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Re: Is Full Tilt rigged?

Quote:
Originally Posted by scorer View Post
ftp used a well known brand, info is not on there site and testing of it is not on there site. Therefore, i don't know what they use
Email support - they will send you all the relevant information.
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Old 07-24-2008, 01:21 AM   #156
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Re: Is Full Tilt rigged?

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*** cake wasted there time posting this and spending money on testing...dumb mgmt
why are you here again now?

we get it - you think online poker isn't fair for whatever reason. why don't you get that no one is interested in what you think?

you know when people say stuff like "If I could convince just one person... then it would all be worthwhile" ?

you haven't convinced one person.

please, no more drinking and posting tonight. and preferably no other night.
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Old 07-24-2008, 02:23 AM   #157
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Re: Is Full Tilt rigged?

hey devilboy---

Quote:
Originally Posted by NoLimitLeagues View Post
and they arent truly random. thats impossible to do.
Quote:
originally posted by devilgirl--Where did you learn that? It's incorrect.
Quote:
It is important to note that computers are deterministic machines, and as such, they cannot produce truly random numbers. For this reason one often refers to Pseudo Random Number Generators (PRNG). Pseudo implies that a PRNG does not produce truly random numbers, but numbers that are random enough for a specific practical use.


you gonna take me up on my $1million dollar bet? i got the funds.
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Old 07-24-2008, 02:28 AM   #158
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Re: Is Full Tilt rigged?

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Originally Posted by NoLimitLeagues View Post
hey devilboy---









you gonna take me up on my $1million dollar bet? i got the funds.
I don't have a million but I'll ship my entire roll to a mod and you can match it. Then we have a bet.

Deal?
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Old 07-24-2008, 02:37 AM   #159
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Re: Is Full Tilt rigged?

so you are going to prove that the top ten networks have legit RNGs for ring games and mtts/sngs thru statistical analysis?

wow!

we have a deal.

in the meantime, can anyone point me in the direction of any analysis done in the last couple years for any site? ive found a couple for pokerstars and party back in 2003, but that is it.
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Old 07-24-2008, 02:38 AM   #160
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Re: Is Full Tilt rigged?

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Originally Posted by NoLimitLeagues View Post
so you are going to prove that the top ten networks have legit RNGs for ring games and mtts/sngs thru statistical analysis?

wow!

we have a deal.
No the bet is that it's possible to generate true random numbers using a hardware RNG. You said that this is impossible. I disagree. That's what I'm betting on.
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Old 07-24-2008, 02:43 AM   #161
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Re: Is Full Tilt rigged?

Quote:
It is important to note that computers are deterministic machines, and as such, they cannot produce truly random numbers.
this is a fact. no reason to bet on it.

i will bet you any amount of money that you cant prove that the top ten networks have legit RNGs for ring games and mtts/sngs thru statistical analysis?

that was my original bet, i did a bad job of explaining myself. i often have that problem.
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Old 07-24-2008, 02:48 AM   #162
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Re: Is Full Tilt rigged?

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Originally Posted by NoLimitLeagues View Post
this is a fact. no reason to bet on it.
We're not talking about computers. We're talking about hardware RNGs.

Here's what I posted earlier:

Quote:
No you clearly have no clue how an RNG works. They don't use pseudo-random number formulas. That's what your PC does, but that's not what a hardware RNG system does at all. They generate true random numbers using entropy from an external source (e.g. atmospheric conditions, alpha-decay or micro temperature fluctuations)
Then you said
Quote:
and they arent truly random. thats impossible to do.
I'm willing to bet you that your statement above is incorrect. It is possible to generate true random numbers with a hardware RNG

That quote about computers not being able to do random numbers using math has nothing to do with hardware RNGs.
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Old 07-24-2008, 03:35 AM   #163
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Re: Is Full Tilt rigged?

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Originally Posted by Devilboy666 View Post
I'm willing to bet you that your statement above is incorrect. It is possible to generate true random numbers with a hardware RNG
You will need to define "true random numbers" very well in order to win. Quantum physics is still a bit iffy on the subject.
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Old 07-24-2008, 03:48 AM   #164
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Re: Is Full Tilt rigged?

devilboy, something wrong with you?? i shouldn't have to email them, it should be listed on there site. Next, ftp sean agreed with me and is forwarding the suggestion to mgmt
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Old 07-24-2008, 04:18 AM   #165
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Re: Is Full Tilt rigged?

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Originally Posted by scorer View Post
devilboy, something wrong with you?? i shouldn't have to email them, it should be listed on there site. Next, ftp sean agreed with me and is forwarding the suggestion to mgmt
OMG they didn't put the link on their website SCAM SCAM
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Old 07-24-2008, 08:17 AM   #166
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Re: Is Full Tilt rigged?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Markusgc View Post
why are you here again now?

we get it - you think online poker isn't fair for whatever reason. why don't you get that no one is interested in what you think?

you know when people say stuff like "If I could convince just one person... then it would all be worthwhile" ?

you haven't convinced one person.

please, no more drinking and posting tonight. and preferably no other night.
What you said....

And also if somebody replies to one of his posts, and has kermit the frog in their avatar, he cares more to focus on that than the arguments made. As if having kermit in my avatar hurts my credibility. What he doesn't realize is that the avatar also says something, and can be applied directly to him.

scorer, those of us who have played hundreds of thousands of hands profitably on Full Tilt, and have run pokerEV graphs and setometer results over time have pretty much proven to ourselves everything is fine. Whether or not FTP wants to post data about their rng becomes pretty irrelevant at that point. While it would be great and all if they chose to throw something on their webpage, it would only be stating the obvious.

You're a muppet!

kermit out
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Old 07-24-2008, 08:52 AM   #167
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Re: Is Full Tilt rigged?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Markusgc View Post
you don't have to see all those hands yourself - they're being dealt all the time at other tables. If it's a 15000-1 shot it means that 1 hand out of 15000 will have that anomaly. That doesn't mean it has to be 1 out or your 15000, as long as it's statistically in line with that figure over a large enough sample size, ie if it happens 3x over 30000 hands that's not too odd - it should even out over the long run. So until the theorists can show data proving otherwise that's all they are - theories.
The scenario we are talking cannot happen over 1 hand, it happens over 6 hands, and to have it happen you would need to see on average half a billion hands.

If half a billion hands are dealt throughout the world every day then the chances are it will happen once every day, but nobody would notice it because those 6 hands will have been dealt to different people on different sites all over the world.

For it to happen to just one person is a longshot the likes of which most people would never see in their lifetime. The point here is that for the OP to make this claim means they are either lying, or have been unlucky on a level that most of us will never experience.
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Old 07-24-2008, 09:37 AM   #168
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Re: Is Full Tilt rigged?

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Originally Posted by theb00radley View Post
If half a billion hands are dealt throughout the world every day then the chances are it will happen once every day, but nobody would notice it because those 6 hands will have been dealt to different people on different sites all over the world.
that was pretty much my point, except for it happening to one person. like I said, I was on a general concept, not a specific event. still, you explained it better than I did, so thanks.
Quote:
For it to happen to just one person is a longshot the likes of which most people would never see in their lifetime. The point here is that for the OP to make this claim means they are either lying, or have been unlucky on a level that most of us will never experience.
yeah, would take a real Munson to have that happen to them.
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Old 07-24-2008, 11:57 AM   #169
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Re: Is Full Tilt rigged?

So, if random numbers exist, then can you rig it randomly ? In that case- how could you find a pattern of riggedness when it is completely random ? Does that make any sense ?
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Old 07-24-2008, 12:12 PM   #170
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Re: Is Full Tilt rigged?

god i just started playing hear...i can't believe otherwise that is not rigged...because...IT IS!!

I had full house Kings full of sevens, but guess what? One idiot had trips 6, cmon....you all know what happened when I went all in and the idiot called, out came the river....guess what it was?

A F___CKIN 6!!!!!!!! WTF?????????

I play conservatively because I believe this site has weird simulators, and even when I have something like AK and someone else has A9, guess what comes up on the flop? 678. But wait...the turn will be another Ace. It's all up to the river card now...my opponent has gun shot and out comes a 10 to complete the straight and beat my ACES YET AGAIN!

Man, I wish I took screenshots of my other bad beats which are HIGHLY IMPROBABLE!

Here is one where me and another guy when ALL-IN with each of us having A8 suited. Guess what...he caught the F__UCKIN FLUSH!!! Whats the chances we both have A8 suited, and one of us catches a flush on the board???

http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/282/badbeatoa0.png


RIGGED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 07-24-2008, 12:19 PM   #171
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Re: Is Full Tilt rigged?

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Originally Posted by ervinsantana View Post
Man, I wish I took screenshots of my other bad beats which are HIGHLY IMPROBABLE!

Here is one where me and another guy when ALL-IN with each of us having A8 suited. Guess what...he caught the F__UCKIN FLUSH!!! Whats the chances we both have A8 suited, and one of us catches a flush on the board???




RIGGED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
at least he brought proof.
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Old 07-24-2008, 12:46 PM   #172
theb00radley
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Re: Is Full Tilt rigged?

If it would take 500 million hands on average for AA to be cracked by a lower pair 6 consecutive times, then of course it could happen at any time within that 500 million hands no matter how early.

If you take 10000 people who have each played 50000 hands that is 500 million hands. The chances are it would have happened to one of them, and maybe okiehustler was that 1 in 10000 person this time.

So to sum it up okiehustler, the games are not rigged, you just became variance's *****. It's like having the amount of luck needed to win the lottery in reverse. On the bright side though you don't lose $10 million for being that unlucky.
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Old 07-24-2008, 12:47 PM   #173
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Re: Is Full Tilt rigged?

How many of us can relate to this guy?

He is RIGHT ON!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r89tSAxAu0c
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Old 07-24-2008, 12:57 PM   #174
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Re: Is Full Tilt rigged?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ervinsantana View Post
How many of us can relate to this guy?

He is RIGHT ON!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r89tSAxAu0c
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vidiot
Every f*&%ing time I lose it's a bad beat!
I somehow don't quite believe he never lost w/TP3K to TPTK once. Or an overpair to a set. But maybe he took his turn in the variance barrel that week?
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Old 07-24-2008, 01:05 PM   #175
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Re: Is Full Tilt rigged?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ervinsantana View Post
god i just started playing hear...i can't believe otherwise that is not rigged...because...IT IS!!

I had full house Kings full of sevens, but guess what? One idiot had trips 6, cmon....you all know what happened when I went all in and the idiot called, out came the river....guess what it was?

A F___CKIN 6!!!!!!!! WTF?????????

I play conservatively because I believe this site has weird simulators, and even when I have something like AK and someone else has A9, guess what comes up on the flop? 678. But wait...the turn will be another Ace. It's all up to the river card now...my opponent has gun shot and out comes a 10 to complete the straight and beat my ACES YET AGAIN!

Man, I wish I took screenshots of my other bad beats which are HIGHLY IMPROBABLE!

Here is one where me and another guy when ALL-IN with each of us having A8 suited. Guess what...he caught the F__UCKIN FLUSH!!! Whats the chances we both have A8 suited, and one of us catches a flush on the board???

http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/282/badbeatoa0.png


RIGGED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Thats funny.
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