It s actually not a single day. I play there for a longer time and happy with almost every product of PS. But the spinandgoes just not realistic for me. I also play offline every week and dont experience sth like that. I will try to collect more sample size to test it.

I'm not sure what your point was here, but it seems you've just strengthened what I said. You've found everything to be fine over a longer time, but a single day at a different game has raised suspicions. As I said, a single day is nowhere near a large enough sample, and now you've added in that you have a much larger sample of play that you think is fine. Yes, it's at a different game, but does it really make sense to you that they'd pick one specific game to rig? But even if they did, that doesn't change the fact that your sample of one day is not nearly enough.

You do realize that all casino games are -EV for the player right? There is virtually no incentive whatsoever to "rig" a casino game in which the house already has a sizable and undefeatable edge.

Stop playing -EV casino games if you do not wish to lose money. You can not beat the house. Any house.

--
Kahn

+1

Is the deck rigged ? No. With HUD's in almost universal use they couldn't do it without someone noticing.

Does this mean poker online is 'fair' ? No. It has been proven many times over that it's very possible to cheat online.

Superuser account, money theft, bots, collusion. This all happens. It's funny to read people posting saying stuff like 'why would big rooms like Full Tilt ever need to cheat ?!' and genuinely not seeing how they were so terribly naive.

Having said that, after being a winning player who was sucked into the 'it's rigged' stuff by my dad who was a terrible losing player and used to complain endlessly, i started believing it was.

But then when you actually read winning players' thoughts on hands, you realise you just suck at poker.

Poker is full of 'rigged' situations, but it's nothing to do with the actual deck. Most people are losing players who believe they should win and complain because they're so bad at poker that they don't realise they're not winning players.

The main reason online seems rigged imo is that people in NLHE were becoming so tight that you were only ever getting action when you were crushed and losing big coolers all the time. When you had a big hand, any bet was leading to folds, which will make it seem like you're just getting pummelled all the time when in reality it's just insanely difficult to extract value from micro nits because they just fold to any aggression unless you're playing crazy lag style.

Interestingly, i stopped playing online and then started playing in bricks and mortar, and i swear to god i've never seen such bad beats - i ran so badly that i started to suspect i just didn't have the luck for this game (because let's have it right - you can only play the cards you have against total loose fish and getting busted over and over and over for huge pots is soul destroying. But that was live. No rigging involved.

If you saw my beats online you would swear live poker was rigged.

Playing 50p/£1, sitting with £150, and after 3 orbits the two biggest fish at the table limp, so i pop it up with AQs in the CO. They both call. Flop comes AQT rainbow, one raises big, the other calls. I shove in because these guys are absolute mugs who come every night and spew their money away. They are likely to have things like 9T or A3. I shove it in. Both call, BOTH of them have KJ and split the chips.

Same level, different table. Spewfish PS-sponsor-wannabe raises. I hold AA. I 3b. He 4b's. I jam 300bbs in. He calls with....33. Flops the 3.

Another one, i have KQs, playing against another mug. Flop comes KQ8. he has KK. This is a guy who will stack off with like 78 on this board. Always has it against me it seems.

Playing PLO i sit down, and very first hand i flop quad T's on ATT, other guy has AA and i take his stack for 150bb.

Have QQ, flop comes QJ2. I raise, other guy shoves, i call. He tables 34o and goes runner runner for a straight.

Ironically, the biggest hand i ever won live was when i had 92o and open jammed because i was tilted at being rivered and having to fold the previous hand because villain obviously got there after i'd barreled half my stack off. Flopped 992 against his KK.

This stuff happened nightly, and with very few hands per hour you would definitely say it was rigged if it happened online. Don't get me wrong, i ran up £50 into £800 in one night and stuff like that, but slowly lost it all back to bad beats from the world's worst (and often drunk) players. I mean what can you do except get it in good ? You can't play with them, just tight aggro ABC, extract the money, make them put it in bad and reap the rewards. That's what i did, just got my money in good or got it in where the fish would be stacking off with any two but seemed always to have it when it was against me. It sucks but it's just the luck of the deal i guess. For every time i jammed with a very strong but second best hand there were other times where i was winning and held up.

I think it's just poker.

That's poker.
The reason the edges are so small in no-limit hold'em is because the luck factor is so high. The standard deviation is going to be many multiples of your actual edge, it dwarfs it. Doesn't matter how good you are, more hands will be won from luck than from your skill. The good thing is eventually the luck evens out somewhat and all that's left is your own skill. So if you lose long-term with tens of thousands of hands, you probably suck. Or maybe just playing over your head.

I actually used to win around £2-400 a month on SkyPoker at the 2p/4p cash games including rakeback. Not a lot, but decent to supplement my living when i was a student.

But then my old man joined up too and started hammering me about his beats and rigged and all that and eventually after a bad run it got into my head and my game was never the same - i couldn't commit to value towning people and always feared they had the exact hand needed to beat me.

After that i started losing but was just above break even for live poker despite the horrendous beats where i'd often lose full stacks to some ape with no clue about what his hand rankings were...just the cards fell the wrong way for me and that was all they wrote !

Are you kidding me? There are countless cases of online casinos cheating going back to 1999.
And BOL itself was caught cheating via live dealer 2 years ago(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOjSWjbKhuw).

What world do you live in where you think just because a casino is earning 1% ROI they wouldn't want 2% or more?

You haven’t heard about the spouse doom switch then?

All the guys I play with live think online is rigged. I always suspected that they just don’t fold enough. the live poker league recently started online leagues so I got to play with these guys online and can say with 100% certainty that they do not in fact fold enough..

You lose 100% of the hands you fold!

You can't win if you don't play!

You have to be in it to win it!

Countless cases? I think I can recall a few times there have been serious concerns, but it's far from commonplace.

I'm not going to say a casino never can/will cheat, but they can already "improve their ROI" without cheating, by simply changing the conditions/odds of the game. The problem is, this isn't always improving their ROI in the long term. There's a method to the edge that casinos, both live and online, have over the players. They want to fleece the sheep, not shear them - if the players lose too quickly, they don't come back.

But if people are going to be always concerned that they are being cheated, and the games are already -EV, why they play them is beyond me. I'd bet most of the people who come out with "the casino is rigged" statements have nothing more than their observations to go on, and they really should just stop playing casino games.

Either way, this is getting fairly off-topic. Not that I'm looking to have the last word - feel free to respond, but we should move on before this gets too carried away. Although I guess I could just move this if it becomes a big derail.

Doyle Brunson once said "You can't lose what you don't put in the middle", but you can't win much either.

Today I will present you undisputable proof that Pokerstars is rigged.
Stop using any Hud if you do, go to Pokerstars software settings>hand histories?>Uncheck Save Hands.
Play a variety of games for a couple of days. You will receive the abuse of your life, unreal bad beats. Make notes, film it, post it. Come here to report before loyal slaves from here announce that ****hole organization.
It's time to expose this scam already. It's a giant slot machine, you really have no chance of winning unless you are influential and help them directly. There is no rng, just AI making sure you will lose your br no matter what.

Hahaha, I love it. So, the rig is only on when it can't be tracked, therefore no evidence beyond videos & anecdotes can ever be presented. I'm surprised this is the first time I can remember hearing that one - congrats on the new angle!

So when are you presenting the "undisputable" proof, or was that it?

There is no point, no reason to play good. You are beaten already. Monteroy will come here and ask again beaten by who? and why? And I will tell again, read carefully cause they will not dare to delete my post but they will cover it with two pages of nonsense asap. So, you are beaten by other players, not house bots or anything fancy, there is no reason to create house bots if you can make 50% players lose and 50% win at anytime regardless of what they hold. Rake is created faster this way, no need to wait for skilled players to play chess forever, or abuse recreational donkeys, that will ruin the business pretty fast. Give all of them equal chances and they will grind their teeth chasing a dream while making you tons of rake. Ever seen how hands in turbo are better than regular? in hyper the hole cards are spectacular. It's all about fast profit, happy donks and influencers who can't miss even if they try.
Sure, you can try to prove it with variance. No matter for how long you lose, you can lose everytime with 95% odds in your favour for the rest of your life and that is still statistically correct. They hide behind this smoke and you can't prove anything.

Someone is on duty, 10 minutes later. ABout 2-3 mins to write that so.
And what did I tell you, they will mock and say bullshet for a few pages now so my posts get burried.
I tell you an anecdote, I lost as 95% favorite in 3 allins for the last 3 games. I wish I filmed it for you but that wouldn't make a difference cause you ll say it can happen in 0.0000000016% of cases so it just happened to you, big deal.
When I checked my HH folder I noticed that it wasn't receiving data for quite a while now. Tbh I don't remember deactivating that feature, I am actually suspicious that they did it themselves, probably when updating the software?
I sent them a form asking for my hands and next thing I know they even disappeared from Instant Hands History panel...

So when are you presenting the "undisputable" proof, or was that it?

It will come from readers trying it, but anecdotes are not considered and videos are cherry picked. Right?
Why do you reply here in only a few minutes at 8 pm? You have no life? Are you hired?

So you aren't presenting any "undisputable proof" after all, but are expecting others will be able to? I mean, that's fine, but it's not what you initially said, which is why I was trying to clarify.

No one's saying anecdotes aren't of any value, but they're hardly indisputable proof. Nor are a few videos. Now I suppose if a whole bunch of people became interested and all found the same thing, you might have something. I have no idea why a site would want to rig poker only against people who have hand histories turned off, and how everyone who has hand histories turned on would miss it, but perhaps you're about to uncover something big.

What you should do is get a willing partner who will play at the same table with their hand histories turned on, and then you will be able to track the hands properly. Seriously. If you're really convinced this is happening, that would be the way to prove it.

I always get a chuckle out of people who start questioning why others are posting on a forum. I'm at my computer doing work, and reading the forums. Why is that important?

3398 pages of this thread is proof enough
Seeing your squad mocking players and coming up with the same argument everytime is proof enough.
You will never be able to prove a rigged rng with hands histories. They can make it run perfectly anyway, you will win small pots with monsters and be set up to lose with hands that are impossible to fold or beat on river by the worst players that ever existed on this planet. That is the truth.
We are in 2019, there is no rng. There are no honest commissions to check it. It's a giant technological wonder called artificial intelligence that makes sure everybody loses more than they win just like roulette or slots if they stick enough time. Don't even bring up the one in a lifetime prize winners or sponsored players into this discussion, that will be disrespectful to anyone with more than two neurons and I will also show you roulette players that won fortunes or lotto billionaires. That doesn't mean lotto agencies or casinos give you a same winning odds as themselves.

Not for people who use logic and common sense.

I have no squad, but, um, OK.

Yes, you could.

OK. So why do you still play? Quit playing! It's obvious that it frustrates you, and you believe it's rigged against you, so I have no idea why you'd still be playing. You first started posting in this thread over 2.5 years ago (on this account, anyway) - I'd have thought you'd have quit long ago.

Unfortunately for you this is proven without a doubt to be false many times over. Depending on which statistics you look at somewhere between 10% and 30% of online players are net winners overall. Do those millions all work for the poker companies?

It would take a hell of a rake structure for everyone to be losers.

I started because I love the game, I became addicted because it's designed like a slot machine.
Go to your local casino and ask the guys there if they know that the slots have an edge over them. I believe that close to 100% know it. So what is it that makes them play? probably the thrill.
I am frustrated because poker should be about the skill and not the thrill.

I know a guy that walks out with money from the roulette table every almost time. He bought a house, cars and lives like a king from this habbit. There must be a precentage of them that are net winners. What does that proove?

I'll try giving you some advice, even though I'm sure it will be ignored.

If you're truly addicted and love the game (and aren't losing money which you can't afford, in which case you should seek help like Gambler's Anonymous), spend your time trying to improve rather than obsessing about bad beats. I can guarantee that you're not as good as you think you are (as is the case with most people), and I can almost guarantee that's why you're losing, not because the game is rigged against you.

In roulette or any other game of chance there will be a small percentage who are net lucky lifetime, since the game has no skill. And the longer they play or more they play the less the chance of being net plus. This is exactly the opposite of a winning poker player.

And I guarantee you that I am not delusional or overconfident. When I sit at the table I put a label on everyone and play accordingly, engage with bad ones and avoid the good ones till the final stages where I face them and then only do my best to survive. But on pokerstars the overwhelming feeling is that you are in a grinder hit from every side most of the time, you are milking the loose and they catch runners, you limp with queens and get a flop with ace, you raise the kings and put allin by aces. Specially later in the tourney, an anecdote circulating for some time now, it's like they keep the hole pairs for the end and you start seeing them clash one after another. It's jacked for fun and rigged to level the field.


What do you mean by: ''And the longer they play or more they play the less the chance of being net plus'' ?
What if I tell you he spends a couple thousands of bets then hits 3 numbers consecutively and makes 46k fold?
AH..you mean that in general, for the community of players the chances decrease the longer they play.
But that is exactly what happens at Pokerstars, a player plays good or bad doesn't matter, long enough to bink a couple top prizes and he is a net winner for that year.
I do believe tho that if you eat and breath poker, study it 24/7 and have the latest huds you increase your odds to bink something, or not. Some will bink more than not inevitably over, then you decide to put them in 1% or 30% depending on what point you are trying to make and call them winners.
That is why you don't play but only promote and defend poker sites on forums every day for decades. You share the prey.

And Bobo I am not a clinical case of a gambler.
Perhaps the most important reason why I keep playing from time to time even knowing it is rigged is because I want to chip my money in this industry so honest people can see that poker is still alive and this increases the opportunity that one day a perfect, transparent and uncheatable software will be created. That will solve many current problems like data mining, once a hand is played it can as well never be saved because it was unique and random. You will have to rely solely on your skills and imagination. No usernames will be shown without fear of bots or house players. Unchanged, unhackable and truly random does not rhyme with rake. It's coming!