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The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition
View Poll Results: Is Online Poker Rigged?
Yes
3,502 34.89%
No
5,607 55.86%
Undecided
929 9.25%

08-20-2017 , 03:14 PM
One trip to the casino does not constitute enough experience to make up your mind on this matter.
The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition Quote
08-23-2017 , 04:58 PM
In 2009 full tilt and pokerstars had a conference and they agrees that the odds on rng's should be changed so since 2009 hand equities have run close together. This is all done as part of keeping the game as even as possible. Research it
The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition Quote
08-23-2017 , 05:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jungmit
In 2009 full tilt and pokerstars had a conference and they agrees that the odds on rng's should be changed so since 2009 hand equities have run close together. This is all done as part of keeping the game as even as possible. Research it
PPPOR.



Spoiler:
Please Post Proof or Retract
The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition Quote
08-23-2017 , 05:04 PM
The "research" is not that hard to find. It is trolling fiction and only exists in this thread (another train wreck) that jungmit started.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/18...66/?highlight=

where someone was mocking him by making up completely unbelievable things that only the special jungmit chose to genuinely believe (which likely surprised them).

He managed to create that reaction in a forum (heads up SnGs) that is pretty much devoid of trolling, so well done on that accomplishment, though that was not his intent.

He should go back there and show them the data you presented here the last time which would verify that the live games he played were rigged if true. They should be appropriately impressed.

P.S. I was tempted to continue with that guy's mocking posts to grandpa with a follow up that I knew about it and was paid to cover up all of that data, but figure try to help you by explaining the basic human behavior that was done to him in that thread that he completely missed. Odds are that will not help him understand anything, due to his immunity to understanding, but whatever.

Last edited by Monteroy; 08-23-2017 at 05:09 PM.
The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition Quote
08-23-2017 , 05:05 PM
I researched it. I found out that it is total nonsense and also that forum users who tend to make stuff up tend to call themselves "jungmit".
The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition Quote
08-23-2017 , 05:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monteroy
The "research" is not that hard to find. It is trolling fiction and only exists in this thread (another train wreck) that jungmit started.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/18...66/?highlight=

where someone was mocking him by making up completely unbelievable things that only the special jungmit chose to genuinely believe (which likely surprised them).

He managed to create that reaction in a forum (heads up SnGs) that is pretty much devoid of trolling, so well done on that accomplishment, though that was not his intent.

He should go back there and show them the data you presented here the last time which would verify that the live games he played were rigged if true. They should be appropriately impressed.

P.S. I was tempted to continue with that guy's mocking posts to grandpa with a follow up that I knew about it and was paid to cover up all of that data, but figure try to help you by explaining the basic human behavior that was done to him in that thread that he completely missed. Odds are that will not help him understand anything, due to his immunity to understanding, but whatever.
You missed a couple of you's when editing to change your post from second person to third person.
The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition Quote
08-23-2017 , 05:57 PM
We shall see. I think proof is on the way by email. Stayed tuned
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08-23-2017 , 06:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lego05
You missed a couple of you's when editing to change your post from second person to third person.
Monteroy agrees with him.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jungmit
We shall see. I think proof is on the way by email. Stayed tuned
Proof of what? The only one who believed anything in that mess of a thread you started was you. I doubt the people who were trolling you even believed anyone could be so gullible, but they have not experienced your rich history.

He even tried to be beyond silly with stuff like

Quote:
Originally Posted by teddybloat
There's still no fix for live poker.

Online we can tweak the rng. But live dealers are still dealing according to pre GTO odds and card removal.
but he discovered that he was playing a game of chicken against a person asleep at the wheel.


All the best.
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08-23-2017 , 06:49 PM
Hes misrepresented the revelations by telling you that the infamous rng conference of 09 was to do with making games even, when we all know it was merely to ensure tens were properly valued according to their gto expected value...
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08-23-2017 , 06:50 PM
At least we know jungmit doesn't drive as bad as he posts. How do I know that? He hasn't been on the news.
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08-23-2017 , 06:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelvis
At least we know jungmit doesn't drive as bad as he posts. How do I know that? He hasn't been on the news.
Oh yes I have. But it was not for driving.
The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition Quote
08-23-2017 , 06:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by teddybloat
Hes misrepresented the revelations by telling you that the infamous rng conference of 09 was to do with making games even, when we all know it was merely to ensure tens were properly valued according to their gto expected value...
But the bottom line is it has made the game more even.
The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition Quote
08-23-2017 , 07:05 PM
Not really, some match ups are less even. eg TT v AK has moved even further towards TT winning.

Only a few percentage points, but enough.


Remember the famous hellmuth v Dwan hand. Hellmuth had AA and dwan TT. Hellmuth could not believe dwan had got all the money in pre with TT. Dwan - one of the original internet GTO players, and a player rep at the 2009 meeting - smiles knowingly, " learn to play heads up no limit, phil".
The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition Quote
08-23-2017 , 07:59 PM
Well, at least this chat could be amusing. Try working Lizard People (the GTO ones) in the mix somehow, he probably will still believe it if he continues to believe you are on his side.

All the best.
The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition Quote
08-23-2017 , 08:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monteroy
Well, at least this chat could be amusing. Try working Lizard People (the GTO ones) in the mix somehow, he probably will still believe it if he continues to believe you are on his side.

All the best.
He is not on my side. He is disagreeing with what I am saying.
The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition Quote
08-23-2017 , 08:13 PM
Then you should continue to have a serious debate with him, he probably would be ok with that. Remember though as you disagree with him that he was the one who you agreed with/ believed in the first place as a basis for your latest posts here. Be careful not to end up arguing with yourself, because if that happens then both of you will not even know what GTO even means and you will both agree and disagree with yourself and each other thus causing space and time to collapse.

All the best.
The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition Quote
08-23-2017 , 09:53 PM
Good God he's back.
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08-23-2017 , 10:33 PM
is that for real? they change the distribuition to be more in place regarding the T and 5 cards? why? shouldnt card distribution and game theory be completely sepparated?
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08-24-2017 , 02:14 AM
Jungmit, some people will alway be haters, and cant leave two erudite and intelligent people to have a civil debate in peace. If we were posting cat memes they'd not be trolling you, but once you talk about things they can't understand, eg complex GTO randomness, they try to shut you down.

You've noticed a subtle shift in expectation of hands with a TEN in them, and did so without tracking software. Thats high level pattern recognition. We're likely the only two winning players in the thread at this point.

Good luck on your quest, sir
The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition Quote
08-24-2017 , 03:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 50oots
is that for real? they change the distribuition to be more in place regarding the T and 5 cards? why? shouldnt card distribution and game theory be completely sepparated?
why should they be artificially separated? its thinking like that that led to QT not winning enough v AK. poker is on the surface a simple game, but the solvers have hinted at things we simply do not understand. some cards have properties that are beyond our explaining. certainly we cant explain them using simple boolean mathmatics and non linear abstraction formulae [though some people with excellent pattern recognition like jungmit have noticed the effects without the aid of solvers]. its akin to heisenberg's uncertainty principle. the universe is connected in some deep mathematical way. Tens and Fives seem be a part of this

read this and tell me with a serious face that you can disentangle GTO from card distribution:

http://web.stanford.edu/dept/HPS/Wri...nce/Ferris.htm
The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition Quote
08-24-2017 , 09:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by teddybloat
why should they be artificially separated? its thinking like that that led to QT not winning enough v AK. poker is on the surface a simple game, but the solvers have hinted at things we simply do not understand. some cards have properties that are beyond our explaining. certainly we cant explain them using simple boolean mathmatics and non linear abstraction formulae [though some people with excellent pattern recognition like jungmit have noticed the effects without the aid of solvers]. its akin to heisenberg's uncertainty principle. the universe is connected in some deep mathematical way. Tens and Fives seem be a part of this

read this and tell me with a serious face that you can disentangle GTO from card distribution:

http://web.stanford.edu/dept/HPS/Wri...nce/Ferris.htm
Did you, by any chance, had an account that used the JorgeLorenzo screen name ?
The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition Quote
08-24-2017 , 02:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jungmit
Oh yes I have. But it was not for driving.
The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition Quote
08-24-2017 , 02:49 PM
Jungmit, if I can give you some practical advice:

Contact support on the pokersites you play on and check if they are using pre or post 2009 rng’s on their site. Ask them to check both their cash and mtt rng’s. one site who will remain nameless was running a pre GTO rng on their cash games and the GTO adjusted one on their MTT rng. Utterly reckless.

Ask for digital copies of their benchmark certificates across all their flop abstractions. You want the number in the Nash Distance column to be below 0.025% - anything above is not a fair deal. Pokerstars has a Nash Distance of 0.0015% for comparison. You may need to escalate the call to someone in game security as most customer service reps on poker sites can only deal with cashier, disconnections etc etc.

For live games you can also improve the fairness of the deal. Live suffers from human inability to generate a fair nash distribution across the whole deck. This is due to two main reasons:

1 dealers do not perform enough shuffles.

2 the way the muck distributes cards.

People tend to muck low cards first. Then middling and high cards go to the flop. The Ace and Kings tend to bet and people fold missed draws. Then the high cards are mucked. So the muck is stratified into low-mid-high layers. This wouldn’t be a problem if dealers shuffled enough times

Research shows no less than SEVEN shuffles are required to randomise a deck. This has been known for years. Here is an extract from a 1990 paper on the subject

Quote:
The usual shuffling produces a card order that ''is far from random,'' Dr. Diaconis said. ''Most people shuffle cards three or four times. Five times is considered excessive.''

The realization that most shuffled decks are not actually random allows gamblers to improve their odds of winning. ''There are people who go to casinos and make money on this,'' Dr. Diaconis said. ''I know people who are out there doing that now.''

How Casinos Do It

In Las Vegas, cards are shuffled from four to seven times, at the discretion of the casino owners, said Richard Ingram, a Las Vegas enforcement agent for the state gambling control board. Dr. Diaconis said he almost never sees a dealer shuffle seven times.

He said his research also shows that when dealers shuffle several decks at once, they need to shuffle more. Two decks should be shuffled nine times, he said, and six decks should be shuffled 12 times, which is unheard of in the casinos.
People have started to exploit this by tracking tens through the deck. Casinos now view Ten Tracking the same way they view card counting at blackjack. Three suspected Ten Trackers were declined entry to this years WSOP.

Here’s how you can achieve a fair deal live:

+ Request seven riffle shuffles before each hand is dealt. Casinos are really taking an interest in the nash distance of their deals and almost all will accommodate this request. If they do not accomodate you, refuse to ante-up until a fair deal is offered.

+ I also insist that all the tens are removed from the deck for the first two riffle shuffles and then introduced one at a time over the subsequent four riffle shuffles before a final riffle is applied to fully randomise the deck and prevent ten tracking. The so called 2-4-1 riffle shuffle is now standard in casinos in the major cities of the Scandinavian countries where ten tracking originated.

+ Again as a paying customer you are entitled to a fair deal – literally. So don’t be afraid of insisting. I am happy for you to screen shot my posts if you come up against an old fashioned or difficult card room manager.

+ this shouldnt take more than an extra minute each hand. again if regs complain i am happy for you to show them my posts

Finally there are at least two live GTO dealers who use the 2-4-1 technique in the live poker forumon this site. I’m sure they’d be happy to advise which casinos in your area try to emulate online’s more accurate card distribution

Last edited by teddybloat; 08-24-2017 at 02:54 PM.
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08-26-2017 , 11:59 PM
None of the skills got an answer for this I guess. This may spell trouble for Monty and the guys.
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08-27-2017 , 07:33 AM
There is nothing to "answer," as he is having fun making weird stuff up to try to bait and troll you, based on his limited success doing that in that other silly thread you started. However, he did not realize what he is dealing with in you, so his trolling fancy play (while being generally ignored by the shills who recognize its ineffectiveness on someone like you) is not something you will fully engage with as well, even if you are gullible enough to take what he says as being genuine. His efforts confirmed what everyone knows - you are slow to understand things.

Not that you will understand nor learn from that breakdown (unlike that other person - I have a good idea what you are), but perhaps if he continues with his hyperbole filled trolling adventures, he will dumb them down appropriately to have a better chance to really hook you.

All the best.
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