All the best.

I think the efforts of online sites go well beyond just allowing poor players to win, juicing the rake etc. As someone with programming knowledge, it's naive, in fact, an insult, to believe coding can't and won't be geared for purpose. Even better when it can constantly be "improved" over many years.

There seems to me, certainly at 888 and Poker Stars, to be a difference for instance, in the outcomes in tournaments vs cash games and I've been playing online since 2004, live poker long before (and after) that.

There is also the definite the possibility of site run bots as well. Software "players" that are aware of how the board will run out. I've suspected this on 888, for example, watching silent players near the bubble calling off a decent sized stack with 73 vs a player who has KK, and 73 hitting two pairs to knock the other player out. The overly successful dominated hand is also quite peculiar.

The argument regarding "proof" is a Red Herring, as it's near impossible to prove, the sites know this. They can give you a run down of sample of 100,000,000 hands if they would like to illustrate, "how random the shuffle is". It will tell you little of the board and certainly of outcomes. Sure, you win exactly the percentage of hands you should win against another particular hand, until you realize, "oh, I won 95% of those hands for small/below average sized pots, but only 5% of large pots " for example. Why the discrepancy?

There is certainly nothing that would be revealed about any potential site run bots that understand how the board will run out etc. They also know, like a well oiled slot machine; how to get people coming back to play. Like religion, it's Faith in it being on the up and up. "You too could win a million! (as soon as you've deposited 3).

It doesn't matter the argument anyone makes, the bottom line is, if a site CAN profit in any number of ways without any consequences, then, they will. Nobody is going to exploit well designed software. Software that runs as designed will simply do it's job.

Play if you'd like, but don't pretend software just fell from the Poker Gods. It is designed by humans for a business. That business model is designed to be sustainable and make gobs of money, and it does.

We live in frustrating times where you can see something with your own eyes as it happens, yet have absolutely no way of proving it happens. Perhaps one day there will be tools to do some hand studies (this thread now accepts those are impossible) as well as some tools that will allow people to show a recording, perhaps in video form, as they play so they can show the rig for others to see with their own eyes.

Alas, until such technology gets invented we need to live in a world where riggies such as you continue to play on sites filled with a ton of house bots, controlled by a bunch of sinister people, who keep this all a perfect secret even as you watch and see it happen with your own eyes, and then continue to play and support those sites. It is what it is.

Thank you for reporting things you have seen without cluttering the thread with even a single verifiable hand history.

All the best.

I would not post a single hand, I could post 100M, and what would your response be?

Some sarcastic, houlier-than-thou, tinfoil-hat suggesting". In fact, no need to even get the response I can provide it for you:

"Ah yes, nobody ever experiences a bad beat" , "sure, the site wants to tweak the software when they have no reason to since a fair game is in their best interest to keep players happy".

"oh, of course, you post 10M hands of variance, post another 50M, there is no reason that you just happen to win the small pots now and lose the big ones, the site can't control what players bet".

Those who are blind believers in software are actually worse than the conspiracy theorists.

For what reason would someone just blindly accept software being clean and honest? Therein lies the biggest question...

I would suggest you lie better, but at least you have been consistent. Here is a post from you 4 years ago.

Guess you still have 100,000,000 hands to go before you post 100,000,000 hands...



Why should anyone blindly accept anything you say? Seems you just like to whine once in a while, that's all, and you have been doing it and continuing to play for years. Perhaps quit already since nothing is being done to fix the problems you think exist, and none of the tons of people in this massive cover up will ever speak of it. No other riggies will work with you and you will not work with other riggies to combine your efforts. Explain to me why you continue playing and participating in this industry with the conditions you believe exist. Thanks, and we will see you in four years or so when you say you could post 100,00,000 hands. Be sure to vote in the riggie poll before you go away again!

All the best.

Yet, you are so interested in convincing people it's legit. What could you possibly gain by convincing everyone that poker sites are run by the people of the highest moral character, integrity and infallible software?


Do you believe this because it's not all about the money, but a company offering a great public service for the love of the beauty of poker?

My position is simple: the software didn't just land here from the skies, it's designed by companies for profit, and there is enough personal anecdotal evidence for me not to naively trust it.

I'm not even sure of your motivation. You should use the conspiracy posts for your own personal amusement. Online wizards like you should be making millions at the highest limits with so many conspiracy theorists who don't believe in their own ability.

What a weird hot take on your part. Did you read the thread lately? I have tried very hard to get a variety of riggies to work together in a coordinated manner so that they could better get their demands heard and properly acknowledged. Problem was that none of the riggies cared at all about the other riggie concepts, just as you probably do not care about theirs and they do not care about your fictional I can post 100 million hand rig / software from the skies rig.

I am one of the loudest voices against legit bad sites, but riggies refuse to do even the lowest level of work to fight for their beliefs. Look at you. Four years ago you whined that you could post 100 million hands (as if saying that means you would do that) and today four years later all you are doing is saying the same thing with zero proof or effort on your part.

Will you embrace another riggie plan and work with that riggie to fight for that cause? No. Will you do anything but whine? No.

Why do you expect anyone else to do all the work for you when you will do literally nothing but whine once in a while. Stop being so lazy and do some actual work for a change and then you might change things.


If you think evil people are behind the evil software for decades and none (even for rooms long closed) have revealed it due to a blood pact or whatever, and you are not willing to do any work or effort to prove these concerns, and you have all your "personal anecdotal evidence," then simply quit this industry. That is not me defending the industry, rather it is telling an emotionally weak person who cannot handle this industry to move on for his own mental health. Note, I say that not caring at all what you choose and I know you will never change your beliefs. See you in four years where you can talk about skies and software and pretend to post 100 million hands.

All the best.

I don't know what his response would be, but mine would be to move it to a new thread so that it gets the attention that it deserves, as I can't imagine too many rigs where 100 million hands wouldn't be enough evidence. If you meant 100,000, that might depend on what you're trying to prove.

This is a common misnomer of riggies - they post their anecdotes, or a handful of bad beat hand histories, and because people tell them they need to provide some evidence, or more evidence, they jump to the "you'll never be satisfied" conclusion. The thing is, there's a pretty big range between a few hands and 100 million. And what is needed isn't arbitrary - it's based on statistics and probability.

IDK, but let me know when you find someone who does.

First, there is no evidence that would be reliable, certainly none that couldn't be explained by "bad luck or coincidence". One would need to see the code in great detail, and clearly the sites aren't going to provide that.

Maybe the U.S government did their own in great detail analysis of software before "Black Friday" hit and they shut down so many sites when the results were revealed, on top of the Ponzi Scheme allegations against some sites. I don't know.

What I do know, is it's extremely difficult to prove, and, even if some concrete evidence were provided (I think a Swedish data scientist create a blog a decade ago making some strong arguments using data history) just who is going to shut them down? At worst, they leave another country that puts the heat on them (these situations may even occur at present).

Surely you know where these servers are held, right? Good luck trying to shut them down. Unless you are the federal government of a nation that cares about the impact on your citizens, lost tax revenue and outflowing of currency, and in turn, bans them, you will not care.

I'm also sure these sites lobby hard for access. It's not hard to understand that after this long a period of time, some government will be more concerned, others, well, let's just say they aren't.

Have you seen the number of sites in which PS has left or been banned? These are well known nations such as China, Australia, Israel and many more.

It seems concerns on a variety of issues I'm sure, are far more rampant than some like to admit.

Completely and utterly false, as was proven by the Cereus network. Not that we needed that to prove it, because how much evidence is required can be worked out mathematically.

LOL, are you trying to suggest that governments are making decisions on the legality of online poker based on a belief that it's rigged?

And that, my friends, is the bottom line in all of this.

Ignore the shills, engage your brain and then if you must, play online poker at your peril!

The bottom line is that online poker is a game provided for competition, fun and enjoyment, where the best players of the game provided can win some money.

If you aren't good enough, don't expect to win money every time you play. If you're not enjoying the experience of playing, don't play at all. Find another hobby/pastime.

There's a bit more to it than that, otherwise we wouldn't have this thread.

It's not about winning and losing. It's about guaranteeing a fair environment to compete in.

None of you riggies are willing to work with each other, or for yourself even, to do anything to change the potentially unfair environment, and nobody else really cares about riggie stuff (total zero issue in the industry).

If you guys refuse to do anything then quit or just take pride in whining in riggie threads that have zero impact. You quit as you could not compete so you should at least encourage other riggies to also quit the industry. I certainly believe they should quit playing in an industry which they believe is corrupt and they cannot compete, and nobody (including the riggies) cares to do anything to try to change it.

All the best.

Many unsophisticated poker players are not acutely aware of the need for true random card dealing and how it affects the game and its fairness. All they perceive is that there sure are a lot of "Party Poker" hands being dealt, and/or that somehow they are losing a lot of hands on the river, etc. They're just having bad luck!

Most of the big commercial poker sites have exploited this ignorance/apathy to their advantage. They can get away with it because the sites are domiciled in jurisdictions/countries that do not care or know about the issue, and do not provide any oversight in this regard - their primary concern is whether they get their share of the pie from these sites.

Commercial poker playing sites like Party Poker will tell you that their live poker games are not "rigged". By that they mean that the hand deals are not biased in favor of any particular player. While this is generally true, it has happened in at least a couple of famous incidents that a poker site or someone connected with the site has arranged for specific players to be provided with real-time information indicating hands dealt to other players. That is, there was fraudulent collusion with a specific player in order to improve their odds of winning.

https://upswingpoker.com/ultimate-be...poker-scandal/

Non-random dealing by online poker sites...

While the specific type of collusion engaged in by Poker Stars and Absolute Poker (see article) are rarities, all of the major online poker sites that I have played on in the past (Party Poker, Poker Stars, Club WPT being three prominent examples) do manipulate the dealt cards - specifically to the benefit of the site itself. This is achieved in such a way that the dealt cards do not necessarily benefit any specific player, allowing the site to (fraudulently) mischaracterize the deals as being random, which in fact they are not, as explained below.

This is done by dealing several players "high probability hands", i.e., "paint" hole cards (e.g., AA, KK, QQ, AK, AQ etc.) and, most importantly, hole cards which end up correlating strongly with the board cards (flop, turn, river cards); for example high pairs, open-ended straight draws, trips, sets, flush draws, etc. It is important to note that the players receiving the high probability hands are selected randomly by the dealing algorithm on each hand, so that the site can misrepresent the deals as being "random". The result of this "high probability" dealing is that more players will have a relatively strong hand (and in the players' minds one with a higher probability of being a winner), causing these players to stay in the hand longer than they otherwise might, while betting more and losing more money in the process. In order to keep as many players staying in the hand as long as possible and betting more, the winning card is typically not dealt until the river.

So how does all this benefit the poker site? The answer is slightly different depending the format of the games being spread - i.e., the following two scenarios...

Scenario - tournaments and sit-n-goes

The common denominator for tournaments and sit-n-goes is that players are charged an entry fee to participate in the game, a portion of which is used to fund the prize pool. But more importantly, in terms of net revenues for the site is that once players bust out of the game they may leave the site, depriving it of additional revenue. This problem may be mitigated if the online poker site can spread large numbers of these games per hour, day etc., (which is typically limited primarily by the demand for games; that is, the number of players who sign up to play). Obviously, the more of these games they can spread over a given time period, the more money they make. So how can they effect this? How can they influence and increase the number of games spread per hour, day, etc.?

The answer is by shortening the games, getting them to end more quickly that they otherwise might. This is done by taking steps to increase the probability that players will bust out of the game at a relatively higher rate. (You may now see where this is going.) That is, by dealing several players high probability hands - high probability (paint, pairs) hole cards and/or hole cards which correlate strongly with the board cards, as mentioned earlier. Players will then bust out more quickly, and the game will be over much more quickly than it would have had the hands been dealt randomly.

But wait, you say! Won't a faster bust-out rate result in more players leaving the site more quickly, thus diminishing the site's revenue rate? There are two additional considerations/factors at play which bear upon this. First, the aggregate demand for poker play at the site - that is, the numbers of additional players available and wanting to play, who could fill the void created by those leaving the site. The solution to this is obviously for the site to be able to attract additional players to its site. There are many ways for the site to address and accomplish this.

The second consideration involves the fact that when players log into a poker site, they are generally looking to fill their need for a poker "fix". That is, they want to play until this need is satisfied. Many, if not most players, if they bust out too quickly, will not have had their need for a fix assuaged and will end up quickly playing again, attributing the bust-out in the earlier game to bad luck. These players will continue to play, in many instances regardless of whether they continue to bust out or not, until their need for a fix is satisfied (or they run out of funds). Of course the site does everything it can to motivate the player to continue playing even as they are complicit in causing the player to bust out of games quickly. Another option for these players is to play in "cash" games, where they can continue to play by simply re-buying more chips. In this case the site has less control over whether or how fast, the player busts out. But the site has devised a solution to that...

Scenario - cash games, also known as ring games

Unlike tournaments and sit-n-goes, in cash games players are not charged a fee to participate. And the site's strategy is not to cause players to bust out of the game quickly, but instead to increase the amount of the rake taken by the site. In cash games the rake is a percentage of each pot that the site takes on every hand. When dealt high probability hands (as in the case of tournaments and sit-n-goes), the player will more likely end up betting more during the hand, thus increasing the size of the pot and the total rake that goes to the site. Of course, if the site can deal more hands per unit time this also increases their take. And if the dealing algorithm is really sophisticated it will keep track of loose vs tight players and target the tighter players to be on the receiving end of a greater percentage of high probability hands, to increase their participation and contributions to the pot.

A good article explaining rakes...
http://www.onlinepoker.net/low-rake#...e%20on%20entry

The bottom line of all of the above is to motivate players to increase their participation in as many hands as possible, betting heavily. And either busting out quickly (tournaments, sit-n-go's) or building large pots for larger rakes (cash games). In all cases this is done by manipulating the dealt cards to achieve the desired result, to the benefit of the site, not the players.

Thumbs up for using the word domiciled.

Thumbs down for now finding a way to include the word sheeple in your manifesto.

Meh to the theory that too many "paint hole cards" are dealt, since, you know, programs exist that would prove that in a few seconds if true. Buy Holdem Manager and one of the easiest features is you can see what number of each hand pre-flop you were dealt.

Good luck with you saying the rig does not target certain players as that goes against standard riggie cultural beliefs, but then riggies will not help each other change anything in this industry as we have recently seen, so perhaps that is not a big deal.

Thumbs up for that being your 11th post in a decade here, with your last batch being you posting the same thing you posted in this thread in the Legislation thread which got a standard whatever reply, until you bumped it a year later which generated less people caring.

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/5...aling-1330069/

Guess we will see you in another 5-10 years, when you will have nothing to say, so congrats on finally finding the perfect thread where that is perfectly accepted behavior!

All the best.

Jesus....that manifesto reads as if it was written for Vox or the Puff Post. Lots of basic information with some clueless stirred into the mix. No wo Derek this was moved to the riggie thread

Almost the entire thread in one lucid post.

Bravo

"And finally, in order to distinguish my post from all of the tens of thousands before it which provided no evidence- despite how very easy that would be- and in order to demonstrate that I'm not simply yet another rambling poster who just doesn't understand numbers very well, here is that easily verifiable proof..."

Wow, that's a lot of words to say "big pots mean players lose faster, allowing for more tournaments to be played and more rake for the site". A theory that has been mentioned many times before, and actually makes sense.

The problem is, it makes more sense for sites to keep doing what we know they already do - speed up the tourneys in legitimate ways by changing structure and format.

I'm with you so far, although I don't know that any of us needed the explanation of what rake is.

Yup.

Nope.

You might want to look into something called the rake cap. When two $50 pots generate more rake than one $100 pot, your plan generates less rake for the site, not more.

Um...how does dealing "high probability hands" help with this? More people in the pot and more betting = less hands dealt.

...that you've written a lot more words with prettier formatting than others, to say exactly the same thing, with the same amount of evidence (none) and logic (little).

Of course, you were told most of this 7 years ago in your thread that houses your other 10 posts, and unfortunately seem to have taken none of it on board.

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/5...aling-1330069/

But your theory has evolved a little - you've added a cash game component, and gone from "I'm not saying sites are doing this, but they could" to "all sites are doing this" (I'm paraphrasing, LDO).

There is a lot of insult on intelligence going on: From the sites who think they have to take every penny from every idiot who comes to play online, and they seriously do think that everyone who plays online is an idiot; if he or she is not, then they are not good for the industry, so they are irrelevant, and should be disposed of, either naturally, by getting them absolutely discouraged or broken or both, or by banning them. They think we cannot see what they are doing, and that even if we see, we do not understand it, etc. They think that even if we see, and understand it, we are not going to do much, they think that even if we see and understand, and try to do something, they will win, because they already have all the money of the world, the money of millions. They think they know what they are doing, and they are probably right.

Even more insult of intelligence comes from the non-riggies community here, the site helpers, or the shillies as Juicer warmly calls them. They will gang on a newcomer to the thread, pile all kind of gaslighting arguments, enhance the feeling that the player is an idiot, something he or she already developed at the site, experiencing these impossible streaks of "bad luck", or to use the more precise term "enhanced by the software bad luck streaks".

How about throwing Party and Titan, and Full Tilt, and pretty much everything else online as well?

Site (or house) players, that is. They do not have to know what is coming. Although that is possible too. All they need to know is that the site software is behind them and it will give them 90% on a coin flip or worse. I even explained how it is possible to do it, with minimum chance of detection (still possible though)

Why indeed? To screw you, to make you run for a new deposit as soon as possible, and to keep you hooked at their particular site, that is why. And if you are not happy with this arrangement, or if you talk too much, and ask questions, etc; well, they will show you the door. Easy. World is full of idiots; it does not have to be you all the time, does it?

Yep, they know psychology well, thy also know Pavlov theory, even their warriors here are pretty good in these areas.

You got that damn right. It is in the software. The crowd here will suggest to you two other possibilities though:
1) You are a weak player, nothing wrong with the software,
2) You are OK player, but everyone else is soo much better, nothing wrong with the software.
And if you reject both possibilities, you will be relentlessly smeared, attacked, gaslighted, ridiculed, etc., until you leave

And it definitely aint the rake only... Yep, the software is made by people, people with rich history and interests in doing stuff on the border of law and far beyond the borders of any country that cares about their citizens. Pure software gods with hellish intentions...

Hey now, I gave him credit - he has said he could post 100 million pretend hands over the years, and that is a lot more pretend hands than you claim to be able to post. Even the boredom riggie only claimed to just have 150,000+ pretend hands on one single opponent somehow. Fortunately, all of you have to date posted a combined zero hands for any kind of analysis, so you match him there, and I realize asking for some simple evidence is clearly a form of gaslighting, similar to how my suggestion that you and others quit this industry is a form of shilling. Better luck with your new deposit this week, perhaps you will finally break that 15 year losing streak that has nothing to do with your relative skill at the game, just watch out for the spooky software that has all sorts of nefarious features that not a single programmer has revealed over 20 years, even for rooms that no longer exist. I would post another fun , real, verifiable hand for you, but you would probably dismiss that as fake like that other riggie last week. Riggies gonna riggie in the end.

All the best.

You keep asking this silly question, why no one has ever admitted in rigging poker software and explained how they did it.

You are good at psychology and you have certain logic. Suppose you are also very smart and computer savvy, and you are corrupted enough to have written rigged software that helped your bosses or you (if you are the boss, which pretty much was the case at the beginning...) take the money of hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of players, basically destroying their life, or at least putting them years behind their non-playing peers. Now what your motivation would be to disclose that you did it, and disclose how you did it? Enlighten the respected audience please. What would be your benefit to say even one word that will shed light on what was happening? Certainly, "why" is not an interesting question here (money), just "how".

Earlier, I suggested a couple of hypothetical scenarios: Someone who did it, dying, say of cancer, and seeking redemption (due to fate - very unlikely, or to mental changes of some kind). Theoretically possible, but very unlikely overall. Or another one: The criminal who is not happy because no one knows about their crime. Well, smart criminals do not really fit into this category. If you are a smart criminal and made millions by smartly criming, a recognition on how you made them would probably be the last thing on your mind.

The problem also is that smart criminals rarely get caught, and even if they do, they more often than not get away with it. See, being a smart criminal makes a lot of money, and money buys good lawyers, all kind of politicians, police etc., all to different extent in different countries, but again, smart criminals make smart choices as to what countries to operate in.

So, perhaps, you should try to find a more reasonable argument?

Riggie riggie riggie can't you see, sometimes your words just hypnotize me...

Apparently hundreds or thousands of employees for poker sites, dozens or hundreds of which are long gone, all will keep this secret until their death. That is a riggie world assumption just as no hand analysis being possible.

Yeah, people who do criminal things never talk about it to other people ever, ever, ever. All hundreds or thousands of the employees in on it are savants that will never reveal a word about what they did on a site that died 15 years ago that nobody ever heard of, because doing so would destroy their lives. Makes sense, though kind of weird that people reveal stuff in every other aspect of life and industry. Guess online poker programmers are a unique breed.

You kind of forgot the obvious ones. A lot of people are stupid and talk. A lot of people have egos that they satisfy by telling others what they have done. OJ came out with a book titled "If I Did It: Confessions of a Killer," yet not a single computer programmer would ever spill the beans about Aztec Poker from 2004. Makes sense.


I did not realize these low level programmers were all criminal bosses. Makes sense.


OK, here is one. If you believe everything you are saying, and you are unable to do anything about it, and you and other riggies are unwilling to work together to enact change, and you have lost at poker for 15 years - quit this industry. Never play again. Feel free to counter that argument with logic as to whey you will deposit yet again this week.

All the best.