Too bad that you are too dumb to prove it then.

See, here's the problem.

Words mean things, and claims require evidence that can be tested in order to support the claim or the claim is bungo.

What you said has a clear meaning that can be scientifically and rigorously tested.

What you're ADVOCATING is that we should abandon any form of scientific thinking and simply accept what you say because you say it.

In short - you're taking a religious approach to this. Believe me or you're wrong end of discussion - that isn't a discussion - that's simply verbal bullying, but it only works on children and the very, very stupid. Coincidentally - it's also only USED by children and the very, very stupid.

Exactly my thoughts. They don't respond to people with well thought out responses like this. Instead they jump on some clown who blabs "offshore sites r rigged" Its easy to tell that guy he's an idiot but its much more difficult (imo impossible) to say that Bovada isn't implementing something as we speak, or already done so.

Good post.

Well thought out? Good post? Which bit of it exactly did you find insightful?

I don't want to be rude to the guy but instead of saying "its rigged because I said so" like the idiot, he's just said "it could be rigged because I said so".

Yes, a rig is technically possible. No, there is absolutely no reason to think it is happening and plenty of reasons to suggest it isn't. Making statements like "you're never going to have proof" and "it would just be chalked up to variance", especially if you have no maths or programming background, doesn't swing the argument in your favour.

And I don't even know what "in your favour" means for people like you and the guy you're complimenting. Why are you trying to convince people of what sites "could" be doing? Yes they could try it regardless of any complications or consequences. What now? Was that a fruitful discussion?

Why don't you go and stand outside your local bar and tell people that they "could" be watering down the beer as they go in?

They could be and they probably are, if not they're doing something else to cut corners and increase profits.

I have 1 thought that none of you can refute. Why would a business want to make less money? I'm not saying they are manipulating the rng or fencing or doing God knows what else, but I guarantee you that they're doing something. Businesses will not remain stagnant, especially ones with uncertain futures. If they think true 'winning' players are hurting their liquidity. They will do something. What that something is, I don't know.

But hey maybe Bovada is the most ethical site ever. They 'could' be.

Nothing new here - just a recent batch of devil's advocate riggies who do not formally embrace their riggie culture.

I am impressed though that so many non-programmers know it would be easy to program a rig (with programmers who never tell the secret) that constantly changes on the fly for tens of thousands of players in near unlimited number of combinations and game types, because after all , it may be possible.

Party Poker once had a glitch where anyone could get $200 in their account if they clicked on an upgrade for their cruise promotion, even if they were not on the cruise. The also had a backgammon $200 bonus that cleared with about $5 risked due to how they incorrectly programmed how points are valued. Stars had a couple times where people could do a rematch for a heads up SnG even without the funds in their account.

Guess the super secret rig programmers that can account for all possibilities were off on those days...

How do we know that McDonalds does not pay its workers to give a penny less change to random customers, and then they split the extra money with the workers. After all, why wouldn't they do something to make them more money? Risk never exists in the land of devil's advocate, which is very convenient.

Do you have a job? Do you know what immoral / illegal practices your employer uses to make more money? Why aren't you publicising what you know they do rather than speculating what other companies might do? If you owned your own poker site, what immoral / illegal practices would you choose?

Nobody can refute that you would probably like more money so what are you doing to get it? Shoplifting? Blackmail? Stealing from your Gran because you'd probably get away with it, right? So why not?

You're not a programmer, are you?

And, here's a question for you...

WHY would they bother? Even if it is as amazingly easy as you suggest, why?

To move tournaments along? Tournaments don't cost much to run. It's a bit of code on a server that sends and receives messages from the user clients and makes decisions. Making a tournament run faster might save a few fractions of pennies here and there on heat savings (less cpu use less power use less heat), but is that really going to be worth it? Better return on investment to get more players and thus more incoming fees.

To generate more rake? Isn't most rake capped? What value once the cap in hit in making players get MORE money in the pot? And if rake isn't capped (ugh) well ok in THEORY you might see more overall rake because pots are bigger per hand - but you've got a finite player pool and a finite amount of money per player - encouraging a bigger pot making players go busto faster is, I think, going to result in less hands played overall. Fewer hands, less rake. Fewer players (pissed at all the bad beats), less rake.

To make new players feel like they're skilled? A /rungood switch that runs out? Again, why? Give someone hope, then take it away, and you get anger. Bad customer service - and again, to what benefit?

Finally, as you said - we can capture data. Rigs have happened before and have been caught, because WE CAN CAPTURE DATA.

Any credible claim of rigging will be investigated. A crooked engine WILL be caught given enough data. Any CREDIBLE allegation of cheating will kill a site. So ... huge risk for the site, miniscule gain.

These ARE poker sites... you really think they're gonna make that big of a -EV play?

I missed you Monty.

Like I said before, lets get off the RNG. If you think Bovada is doing nothing to continue their crusade against winning regulars, thats on you. Its anonymous, no wait lists, no synced breaks, etc. Do you think they are going to stop at that?

We know their business model. Where does a company that is making money hand over fist in an unregulated market that doesn't know if it will be around in 1-2 years let alone tomorrow stop?

Your mindset says much more about yourself than about how most businesses operate. The vast majority of businesses don't systematically cheat their customers, and those who do usually don't last (hint: there a difference between cutting costs and cheating/lying). But it's well known that dishonest people tend to think that most others are like them.

Cool. If we do not reply to each other in over a week I tend to forget people like you, so thanks for keeping it fresh for now. If you do the stalker thing and follow me around, just remind me then which riggie you were in these chats. Use the nickname "Bovada Devil Riggie."

This is a rigged RnG thread. Bovada probably has its own thread here, and perhaps the chat about their business model (without the RnG riggie nonsense) happens there. I have never had an account, nor backed anyone on Bovada, so it is not a company I have much interest in.


I have yet to see proof of them rigging their deal with a rigged RnG, and I have a nice $5,000 reward out there for someone who can definitely prove it, so go for it if you like.


This has nothing to do with rigging. Many sites are changing the games they offer to appeal to more casual players, and those changes will continue. Post your concerns in the Bovada thread if you like.

Nothing to do with rigging (which again is what this thread is about). Feel free to read the posts I made about Lock Poker which was/is much worse than Bovada.

If these things concern you so much, why discuss them in a riggie thread that will never matter. Go to the appropriate threads and make your voice heard.

All the best.

These are offshore poker sites with uncertain futures. Are you guys serious? You are going to compare my mindset to a business like this? lol @ that.

Because we know nothing bad has ever come out of poker sites before. FT, UB, Lock were all very legit operations, its crazy to speculate that others wouldn't try.

I can't believe one would compare and offshore poker site to other honest business, or the one guy comparing poker sites to McDonald's. Laughable.

Monty again telling me to go to different threads b/c I have legit arguments.

As others have pointed out, not all sites are "offshore" for everyone. I assume this post means you trust sites regulated by the US, right?
And what do all 3 of those sites have in common?

They all just stole the money. They didn't set up elaborate rigs to defeat winning regs, they didn't shave a percent or two here or there, they stole the ****ing money. Laughable? You really think McDonald's uses all beef in their patties, or 100% white meat chicken in their chicken nuggets?

None have ever been shown to have tried rigging the deal. That is the essence of the product customers are buying, and as far as anyone knows all sites have delivered it. Sure they've done other bad things, but usually you have to at least deliver the product customers are buying. Nobody here has ever said any of these operators are saints, but without some evidence supporting it, jumping to the conclusion that the deal is rigged is just stupid.

Your points may or may not have some validity to them, but most have nothing to do with rigging, which is the topic of this thread. If you posted your points on the current conflict in the Middle East you may have valid or incorrect points, but it too would not be proper to post them in this specific thread.

Not really sure what else to tell you on that, learn to use the internet better or something.

Is there a reason why you do not actually post your non-riggie concerns with the Bovada business in the Bovada thread? That would seem the logical thread to bring your concerns with their anon tables and other non riggie issues you have with them.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/28...hread-1142716/

There is the thread.


All the best.

When I originally got lured into this blood sucking thread it was in response to someone else claiming it may be possible for Bovada/others to implement tactics that I have previously stated to increase their profits. I simply stated, "its scary this may be the wave of the future."

Now we're going to argue about where my valid points should be discussed? Really? In this thread people talk about rng and many other points sites may use in order to take advantage of players, my points are no different. In the Bovada thread that I check daily its people seeing when their bonus will be credited, site crashing for no reason, among other silly things.

Now can you really tell me that I should be posting in other threads?

My suggestion in future is take a bit more time to properly screen a person like that. You dismissed the crazy "off shore is riggedzors" all-caps nutjob, but the guy who "lured" you in made claims that were just as nonsensical, in fact some were mathematically impossible (like losing 200 BBs in limit poker in a few dozen hands).

When he was caught making up his numbers he dismissed that saying the numbers did not matter. Not much to debate after that. In the end he was was an emotionally unstable player who had the game pass him by, some part due to his not maintaining his skills, and some due to the game mix that changes over time (limit poker is hardly a growth game). He quit playing, which was by far the best choice for him.



If they have nothing to do with rigging then posting them in a rigging thread is pointless, unless you are being a weird type of troll.

When I had serious issues with Lock Poker and how they ran their business I posted extensively in the Lock Poker thread (and Shane from Lock was not a big fan of my posts). When Party Poker made some fairly strange strategic choices I posted in their thread.

I even complained in the Stars thread when they ran the crazy all Brits become a Supernova promotion (something they have never repeated), and posted support for the movement to reduce rake in turbo DoNs years ago (which Stars agreed to after seeing the complaints).

I could have posted all of my opinions on those topics and more in a riggie thread if I wanted, but since I would get no progress on any of my opinions in a riggie thread I chose not to waste that time on industry related issues that actually had some meaning.

You are welcome to talk about anon tables, and table limits, and game format changes, and charges for withdrawals (like Party's 3% fee) in this thread if you really want, but riggies will not care about those topics (as they link you to a youtube video or a riggie blog), and the shills will tell you it has nothing to do with the thread's topic as well.

By the way - I never said your non riggie points were valid, I said they may or may have some validity to them, however you would need to properly flesh them out in the appropriate forum/thread, which will not happen here. I see you declared them "valid" anyway, and suggested with your wording in your reply to me that I agreed with that. Not quite. Granted, that is a very common technique with riggies to alter reality in their minds, however you may find that does not work as well in an actual debate, if you ever choose to have one on those topics in the appropriate threads.


Nearly all of it has to do with a rigged RnG. Many disposable riggies toss in UB/Tilt/Enron as part of their general paranoia / hatred toward all forms of business, but those claims (without a riggie theory) get dismissed as having nothing to do with rigging, because this is a thread about rigging.

So the reason you are not posting there is because you do not believe your opinions about Bodog in the Bodog thread will be acknowledged? Instead you are choosing the riggie thread? Seriously?

Assuming your income is based on playing on Bodog, which seems to be the case, I would highly suggest you consider spending more time introducing your issues in that thread, and perhaps you will find others that agree with you and some momentum will build.

You can keep posting here if it makes you feel better or you are doing a bit of a troll routine. You will not change anyone's mind in this thread without proof of a rigging and your non rigging topics are misplaced here, which is why you are not getting much of a debate on them (which you interpret as nobody disproving you, which riggies use all the time as a form of reasoning).

If that process helps you emotionally then keep doing it, and you would not be the first riggie to go with that approach for a while, but you will never get anything accomplished in this thread, because nobody ever gets anything accomplished. It's a conspiracy light type of thread, nothing more.

All the best.

OK. So your "argument" (if you can call it that) only applies to "offshore poker sites" and no other businesses.

How much of your concern would you say is based on actual facts and how much on xenophobic paranoia? Like, 20/80?

Yet with my analogy of a bar watering down the beer you said that they "could be and probably are". So why aren't you outside a bar somewhere ranting at their potential customers? Because you know it's out of line making **** up? Or because there's no xenophobic angle there?

Monty- You are missing my point. I have no evidence. I never said they are doing any of these practices. What I'm saying is they have taken prior steps to implement something if they wish b/c it is much harder to detect with anon players and disappearing tables. This is a first in the industry. You guys cannot possibly argue against that.

Bingodingbatboy- I didn't respond to you b/c you say stupid things. I don't stand outside a bar telling customers not to go in b/c there is no benefit in it for me. A site like Bovada, in which I can make income, would be taking a benefit away from myself. Re-read that like 3 times before responding to make sure it makes sense. Jackass.

Party had anonymous tables before Bovada, but you said I couldn't argue against that, so I guess facts can **** right off.

U win.

To make more money. DUUUUUUUUH! HELLO MCFLY... IS ANYBODY HOME???

Would a crook stop at making lots of money if he had the power to make more without getting caught? AWVIOUSLY NOT... IF SOME PEOPLE ARE GONNA MAKE AT LEAST $50,000 A YEAR OR MORE BY SIMPLY (AND YES I SAID SIMPLY... BUT DON'T ASK ME FOR SOME COMPLICATED PROGRAMMING CRAP WITH EVIDENDE HOW SIMPLE IT IS ) CODING THE SOFTWARE WITH A HANDICAP TO KEEP THE ECONOMY OF THE SITE AS HEALTHY AS IT CAN AND HAVE A COSTINT FLOW OF RAKE, THEN THEY ARE GONNA FREAKIN' DO IT MCFLY....

I know online poker sites have lots of trusting fanboys, but you guys need to realize that it is not real random poker... Dream all you want, but you just never know which site is actually fair and random...

End of discussion...