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Old 12-29-2017, 01:14 PM   #401
MShkreli
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Re: GGNetwork: Natural8, etc

Quote:
Originally Posted by ontheupandup View Post
Is all-in insurance genuinely fee-free? I'd like to use it sometimes if it really does offer the same EV with reduced variance. I keep meaning to look into it but never get around to it.
Insurance is EV-. Just another way to screw players.
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Old 12-29-2017, 04:04 PM   #402
vicyafos
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Re: GGNetwork: Natural8, etc

Quote:
Originally Posted by ontheupandup View Post
Is all-in insurance genuinely fee-free? I'd like to use it sometimes if it really does offer the same EV with reduced variance. I keep meaning to look into it but never get around to it.
Not my post, credit Kyyberi

The calculations are there.

Juice is the amount that insurance pays over the EV0 amount. If EV0 insurance would pay $5, then if you pay $5,50 for it there is $0,50 juice. The one who gives the insurance makes profits from the juice.

In the example there is an all-in on the turn, 100bb stacks and hero has 85% equity.

Let's repeat the situation 100 times and hero wins 85 of those.

Without the insurance

85 times hero wins pot of 200,5bb = 17042,5bb
15 times hero loses 100bb stack = -1500bb

After 100 repetitions hero has 15542,5bb

With insurance

85 times hero wins pot of 200,5bb, but pays insurance of 17,7bb = 15538bb
15 times hero loses but keeps his stack = 0bb

After 100 repetitions hero has 15538bb.

Difference is about 0,05bb per hand. If the insurance cost is 1c lower, it would be the same difference but benefits the player. So it's uite understandable that it's rounded up.

I can't explain it any clearer. Insurance is EV0 so it doesn't affect your winnings directly in the long run.
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Old 12-29-2017, 05:20 PM   #403
NINzent
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Re: GGNetwork: Natural8, etc

So you're telling me ALL THIS TIME I could've just used it?
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Old 12-29-2017, 10:29 PM   #404
ontheupandup
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Re: GGNetwork: Natural8, etc

Quote:
Originally Posted by vicyafos View Post
Not my post, credit Kyyberi

The calculations are there.

Juice is the amount that insurance pays over the EV0 amount. If EV0 insurance would pay $5, then if you pay $5,50 for it there is $0,50 juice. The one who gives the insurance makes profits from the juice.

In the example there is an all-in on the turn, 100bb stacks and hero has 85% equity.

Let's repeat the situation 100 times and hero wins 85 of those.

Without the insurance

85 times hero wins pot of 200,5bb = 17042,5bb
15 times hero loses 100bb stack = -1500bb

After 100 repetitions hero has 15542,5bb

With insurance

85 times hero wins pot of 200,5bb, but pays insurance of 17,7bb = 15538bb
15 times hero loses but keeps his stack = 0bb

After 100 repetitions hero has 15538bb.

Difference is about 0,05bb per hand. If the insurance cost is 1c lower, it would be the same difference but benefits the player. So it's uite understandable that it's rounded up.

I can't explain it any clearer. Insurance is EV0 so it doesn't affect your winnings directly in the long run.
Nice, thank you/Kyyberi.
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Old 12-30-2017, 11:53 AM   #405
vicyafos
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Re: GGNetwork: Natural8, etc

Quote:
Originally Posted by NINzent View Post
So you're telling me ALL THIS TIME I could've just used it?
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Old 01-02-2018, 12:40 AM   #406
Mr.DjiSamSoe
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Re: GGNetwork: Natural8, etc

Have anyone's check Highstakes Poker room (GGskins) which offer VIP almost like the old FTP system (or like Stars now) you can get direct cash rebate by buying stuff on the HS Store..can some one check it and calculate the RB..

Level Bronze - Silver - Gold - Platinum and Red

Rake $1 = 100 pts

$10 cash rebate for 6.250 points
$100 cash rebate for 50.000 points
$1k cash rebate for 375.000 points
$10k cash rebate for 3.000.500 points

Thanks
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Old 01-02-2018, 07:07 AM   #407
Kropotking
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Re: GGNetwork: Natural8, etc

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.DjiSamSoe View Post
Have anyone's check Highstakes Poker room (GGskins) which offer VIP almost like the old FTP system (or like Stars now) you can get direct cash rebate by buying stuff on the HS Store..can some one check it and calculate the RB..

Level Bronze - Silver - Gold - Platinum and Red

Rake $1 = 100 pts

$10 cash rebate for 6.250 points
$100 cash rebate for 50.000 points
$1k cash rebate for 375.000 points
$10k cash rebate for 3.000.500 points

Thanks
You got the numbers, now do the math
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Old 01-02-2018, 12:16 PM   #408
Adolfphin
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Re: GGNetwork: Natural8, etc

Does anyone know how you can get into the VIP rooms? i see 3 vip rooms, Mariana bay sands and formosa poker club and slurpeez, I've heard that there is really good action in the VIP
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Old 01-02-2018, 05:26 PM   #409
the4bettingmonk
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Re: GGNetwork: Natural8, etc

so what is the rake on cookie freerolls? Hard to find out what the effective percentage is.

edit: also what times are the best traffic numbers at?
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Old 01-04-2018, 11:04 AM   #410
Adolfphin
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Re: GGNetwork: Natural8, etc

i found a guy who sells handhistory for ggnetwork, will i get banned if i use it?
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Old 01-04-2018, 01:15 PM   #411
vicyafos
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Re: GGNetwork: Natural8, etc

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adolfphin View Post
i found a guy who sells handhistory for ggnetwork, will i get banned if i use it?
imo it seems v likely as getting caught using a HUD would mean perma ban
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Old 01-04-2018, 03:34 PM   #412
Bobo Fett
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Re: GGNetwork: Natural8, etc

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adolfphin View Post
i found a guy who sells handhistory for ggnetwork, will i get banned if i use it?
So you're asking if you will get banned for cheating?

How about - don't cheat, whether it will get you banned or not.
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Old 01-05-2018, 05:57 AM   #413
soL-10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vicyafos View Post
Not my post, credit Kyyberi

The calculations are there.

Juice is the amount that insurance pays over the EV0 amount. If EV0 insurance would pay $5, then if you pay $5,50 for it there is $0,50 juice. The one who gives the insurance makes profits from the juice.

In the example there is an all-in on the turn, 100bb stacks and hero has 85% equity.

Let's repeat the situation 100 times and hero wins 85 of those.

Without the insurance

85 times hero wins pot of 200,5bb = 17042,5bb
15 times hero loses 100bb stack = -1500bb

After 100 repetitions hero has 15542,5bb

With insurance

85 times hero wins pot of 200,5bb, but pays insurance of 17,7bb = 15538bb
15 times hero loses but keeps his stack = 0bb

After 100 repetitions hero has 15538bb.

Difference is about 0,05bb per hand. If the insurance cost is 1c lower, it would be the same difference but benefits the player. So it's uite understandable that it's rounded up.

I can't explain it any clearer. Insurance is EV0 so it doesn't affect your winnings directly in the long run.

Are you sure about this? After reading this I told myself, why not swing less and take the insurance.

Came this pot in PLO :


All-in on the flop for a total pot of : 1091.54$

I didnt pay too much attention to the numbers they gave, as they go quickly and quoted text above said it was almost neutral ev, if not neutral ev.
Using cardsplayer odds calculator,

my equity on the flop: 67.44%
his equity on the flop: 32.56%

Pot on the flop : 1091.54$

my equity value : 736.13$

my insurance payout : 543.27$

Which represents almost half of the value of the pot. Hmm?

I lost the pot, got 543.27$, winner got 1091.54$, as per HH. I also dont understand when in the HH the rake is taken.

Anyhow, there is a massive difference in my insurance money : 543.27$ and my equity money : 736.13$

And we said above; is it almost neutral EV to take insurance? What am I missing?


*

^


Ahhh, I could edit above but I get it.

You dont get your equity, nor your equity minus a fee.

If you lose, you simply keep your stack.

Got it. Misread or got confused, Ill leave the top post for information, just in case it helps somebody if he scrolls this.

Last edited by Mike Haven; 01-07-2018 at 05:31 AM. Reason: 2 posts merged
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Old 01-31-2018, 11:19 AM   #414
NINzent
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Re: GGNetwork: Natural8, etc

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/2.../#post53421647

Essential read for everyone playing on the network!
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Old 02-03-2018, 12:06 AM   #415
ZeroZero
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Re: GGNetwork: Natural8, etc

Thanks for the heads up. This is my first time joining any site for Online. Do you have alternate recommendations? Im just playing with around $100 to get my feet wet so maybe this site is fine for me?
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Old 02-11-2018, 06:16 PM   #416
BanGGNetwork
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Re: GGNetwork: Natural8, etc

Asking questions gets you banned from GG Network. Attempting to comply is equivalent to transgressing. You can't know the rules. But if you break them, you'll lose your money.


tl;dr:
GG: If you break our rules, you’ll be banned and we’ll confiscate your funds.
Me: What are your rules?
GG: None of your business.
Me: Are you serious?
GG: You’re banned.

Email screenshots:
https://ibb.co/cQKoFn

text:

Quote:
GG:
We would like to inform that in a previous email of warning sent on the 6th, we had outlined the security policy as well as point out the fact that you had violated our policy by committing the act of ratholing. After the email of warning was sent, we had unlocked your account; we had investigated the gameplay records after you had checked our email. However, when we had investigated your records, we had found that you had ignored our warning to recommit the act of ratholing. As such, in accordance with the policy that we had outlined in our previous email, your account will be suspended for 30 days from today. If we find that you had created a new account to login to our network or violated our policy in some form during your suspension, then we will have no choice but to proceed in accordance with our policy and confiscate your balance.

In addition, if we find that you have participated in any acts that may cause harm to our network after the suspension period, then we will have no choice but to follow our security protocol and proceed to permanently lock your account and confiscate your funds. We hope that you will abide by our security policy.
--
Me:
I have not harmed your network. I am wondering whether you care about your network, considering how little regard you are showing for one of its biggest customers.
Can you give me at least one example of a rule violation? Anything I have done has always been allowed by your software. If there are grounds for suspension, I suspect you will be suspending and alienating many other players as well, including some big losing players. I will keep an eye out to make sure they get the same treatment I am getting.
I have not ignored your policy. You have not defined what a short stack is. Now that you have suspended me and cost your company $4000 and me my livelihood, can you at least clearly define a “short stack” after the fact? Or are you going to give a b.s. obscure reply about “network security”? What is a short stack? 50bb? 75bb?
--
GG:

The security team applies the network rules to all players of the network fairly, and due to the fact that its disclosure would may be a possibility of circumvention or abuse of the investigation, we are not allowed to disclose the detailed information about the investigation and its process. Therefore, please understand that we are not allowed to share the detailed information about the investigation and evidences. We ask for your understanding and cooperation regarding this issue. In addition, the handling of violations will commence in accordance with our Security and Ecology Agreement which can be found at http://www.ggnetwork.com/security-and-ecology-agreement

We would like to inform you that we had investigated your game records after we had sent you an email of warning on 6th with regards to the act of RATHOLING. Upon reviewing your game records, we had confirmed that you had engaged in the act of RATHOLING. The conclusion was based on your game records like session hours, table in / out records, buy-in, etc., and we would like to inform you that our decision is final and that it will not be overturned. If we find that you had created a new account to login to our network or violated our policy in some form during your suspension, then we will have no choice but to proceed in accordance with our policy and confiscate your balance.

In addition, if we find that you have participated in any acts that may cause harm to our network after the suspension period, then we will have no choice but to follow our security protocol and proceed to permanently lock your account and confiscate your funds. We hope that you will abide by our security policy.
--
Me:
Okay, you don't want to give details about what I did that caused this.

Whatever I did, I'm pretty sure the user "*******", to name one, is equally guilty, and I trust that you will or have already proceeded to warn and/or suspend that person. Free of charge, I will help you in the future by recording and reporting every possible violation I see.

But you didn't answer my question about what constitutes a short stack. I want to know your rules, so I that don't inadvertently violate them in the future, and so that I don't waste time reporting players to you if they have not committed an offense.

If it is complicated, I still would like to know, to protect both myself and your network.
--
GG:
As we have mentioned, the Security team applies the network rules to all players in a fair manner. Due to the possibility that the disclosure of the details of the investigation may be susceptible for abuse or circumvention of our investigation, we are not allowed to disclose any information pertaining to the investigation or any details of the investigation process. In addition, we are using a term 'short stack' as commonly defined in all the poker networks. The rules that you had violated are as follows:

11. RATHOLING
Ratholing includes, without limitation, where a player sits at a table with short-stack and upon hitting a certain threshold, he or she deliberately leaves the table, and sits at a new one with a short-stack. If a player is suspected of engaging in ratholing, GGNetwork shall warn the player against such activity. GGNetwork reserves the right, in its sole discretion, to suspend the player for 30 days if repeated breach occurs.

In addition, we have separately investigated each accounts related to the violation of our policy, and as such, each case will be handled separately. Therefore, we are investigating the content that you have reported to us as a separate case. The Security team's investigation will only be conducted directly with the player and no third party will be involved during the investigation process. We hope that you will abide by our network rules which we have warned you about.
--

Me:
• GGN: You’re suspended for breaking our rules, and if you break them again, you’ll be banned and we’ll take your funds.
• Me: Wow, that sounds serious. What are your rules?
• GGN: None of your business.

That you would threaten to confiscate funds in this manner and without embedding your rules into your software is mind-blowing. You are putting players in an impossibly unfair situation.
Revealing what is and is not allowed on your network is too risky for you? Well, you either have rules or you don’t. I’m sure your job has its challenges, but GGN is being trusted with many thousands of dollars. Don’t you owe some clarity to the vast majority of your customers, myself included, who are not malicious? You are free to modify your rules as needed. But to suspend and confiscate funds without any clarification? Does that sound like the “safe” environment you claim to provide? A person would have to be insane to play on your network knowing that this is how you operate.
Perhaps GGN’s objective is to suspend and confiscate as much as possible. In that case, then yes, me trying to clarify your rules could dangerously circumvent that objective. If that is your objective, put it on your website to avoid confusion. Then I won’t try to “abuse” or “circumvent” you anymore. I won’t play on GGN, and I will let others know your objective.
Continued refusal of all clarification will lead to the logical conclusion that GGN has no rules which it enforces consistently, and it simply suspends players and confiscates funds on a whim.
At the risk of wasting even more time trying to reason with you, below are a dozen rewordings of very similar questions. What you appear to be doing thus far is so shocking to me that I just need to inquire a little more before confirming that this is real and that player funds are not safe at GGN.
1) At 2/4, I take $120 and run it up to $500. I leave the table, eat dinner, and come back 30 minutes later. Previous table is full. Can I play on a different table? If yes, what are my buy-in options? What if I went from $120 to $300 on the previous table? What would be my buy-in options? What is the formula?
2) At what % or $ increase of my stack am I not allowed to leave and join a new table with the same original buy-in? What if I buy in for $120 and leave with $125? Am I allowed to join a new table with $120? What is the formula?
3) At 2/4, I take $120 and run it up to X amount, and the table becomes 3-handed, or heads up, or breaks. Can I leave a 3-handed or heads up table and buy in at a new table with $120? If I leave to join a new table, what are my buy-in options? What is the formula?
4) I buy in for $400 at 2/4. The maximum. I run it up to $550 or $600 or $800 or X amount. I leave and join a new 2/4 table with $400. The maximum. Is that a violation? If it is a violation, and if you will punish a player in this situation, then:
• From GGN rule #11 “…he or she deliberately leaves the table, and sits at a new one with a short-stack”. You said in your previous email: “we are using a term 'short stack' as commonly defined in all the poker networks”…
• There is not one human alive that defines 100bb as a short stack, much less “all poker networks”...
• So, if in fact you would punish a player when he leaves Table 1 and buys in for 100bb on Table 2, then you didn't say the truth when you said “we are using a term 'short stack' as commonly defined by all poker networks”. And this lack of truth on your part could inadvertently cost a player his entire account balance. How could any player trust GGN?
5) I’m winning “X” dollar amount or % on Table 1. I then join Table 2 with the same amount I bought in for at Table 1, so now I’m playing on two tables. After I start playing on Table 2, can I leave Table 1? If not, how long do I need to wait before I can leave Table 1 without you threatening to confiscate my funds? What is the formula?
6) Your client allows me to buy in for whatever I want after being away for 1 hour. Obviously, the fact that your software allows it doesn’t mean that I won’t be punished for it. So, how long do I need to wait after leaving a table before I can freely choose my buy-in at a different table without you threatening my funds? Does that depend on how much I won at the previous table? If yes, what is the formula?
7) I buy in $150 at 2/4 and run it up to $300 or “X” amount. I then want to leave and join 5/10, 3/6, 1/2, or 0.5/1. What are my buy-in options? Does that depend on how much I won at the previous table? If yes, what is the formula? Will you punish me for leaving 2/4 with $300 and buying $200 at 1/2 or $100 at 0.5/1?
8) I buy in for $150 at 2/4 Omaha, run it up to $300, leave the table and want to play Hold’em. What are my buy-in options?
9) What if I leave a 1/2 table with more than $400 and want to join 2/4? Can I do that? What are my buy-in options at 2/4? Must I buy in for $400?
--
GG:
As we have mentioned, the security team applies the network rules to all players of the network fairly, and due to the fact that its disclosure would may be a possibility of circumvention or abuse of the investigation, we are not allowed to disclose the detailed information about the investigation and its process. For instance, if the user who violated the policy know detailed information like formula you have mentioned, the user may avoid to apply the policy using that information. Furthermore, if it became known to others, they will be able to abuse it, and other normal users will be harmed.

We have provided you a guide of the security policy, and a link which is includes our policy. In addition, the policy on the link is what a normal user can understand and comply with. However, you are asking for more details, rather it is intended to obtain information for the purpose of circumvention. Aforementioned actions have been deemed as harmful to our network and thus your account cannot be tolerated. Therefore, we regret to inform you that you are no longer welcome to play on GGNetwork as you requested, and by our policy. Please do not attempt to return to play at GGNetwork. If you do so, we will have no choice but to to block and confiscate your accounts without an advanced warning.
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Old 02-11-2018, 11:30 PM   #417
Schlager233
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Re: GGNetwork: Natural8, etc

They have so many bots and superusers playing there, they could care less about any winning regs. Especially winning regs who have half a brain to question their arbitrary implementation of the "rules". Seems they are 1 step away from sending all the winning accounts to go grind .02/.04 in gulag work camps.
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Old 02-13-2018, 07:35 PM   #418
AndreasAU79
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Re: GGNetwork: Natural8, etc

GGPoker's house rules state that players are allowed to play a maximum of 4 tables at the same time, can anyone verify that? I was unaware of it since I played there for the first time today and the software didn't prevent me from sitting on a 5th table, which I assume would have been the most logical thing.

https://www.ggpoker.com/house-rules/

Also is there a way to calculate rake paid? When I figured out that PokerCraft doesn't include rake I tried to calculate the rake based on the FPs I collected. I got 550 FPs today, which corresponds to $5.50 in rake, if I'm not mistaken (1 FP for $0.01 https://www.ggpoker.com/poker-promot...uffet-rewards/). Adding that to the $4.31 I lost (based on PokerCraft) + $0.50 I got as rakeback I should have lost $9.31, but my balance is missing $10.38.

So either PokerCraft isn't tracking results correctly or something is off with FPs received & rake generated, or money is magically disappearing somehow?
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Old 02-14-2018, 05:11 AM   #419
ontheupandup
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Re: GGNetwork: Natural8, etc

Quote:
Originally Posted by AndreasAU79 View Post
GGPoker's house rules state that players are allowed to play a maximum of 4 tables at the same time, can anyone verify that? I was unaware of it since I played there for the first time today and the software didn't prevent me from sitting on a 5th table, which I assume would have been the most logical thing.

https://www.ggpoker.com/house-rules/
Wtf really? I was completely unaware of this 'rule'.
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Old 02-14-2018, 07:10 AM   #420
AndreasAU79
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Re: GGNetwork: Natural8, etc

Quote:
Originally Posted by ontheupandup View Post
Wtf really? I was completely unaware of this 'rule'.
I was stunned when I read it, even more stunned that the software doesn't automatically stop you from sitting at more tables. (which Unibet does for example)
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Old 02-14-2018, 02:29 PM   #421
the4bettingmonk
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Re: GGNetwork: Natural8, etc

Fairly worrying that every email from GGnetwork looks like it was written by a lawyer. It's as if they expect the feds to bust the door down any minute.
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Old 02-15-2018, 08:10 AM   #422
AndreasAU79
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Re: GGNetwork: Natural8, etc

Regarding the multi-tabling rule I mentioned yesterday, I informed a streamer who was unaware of it and he contacted Support, turns out it was an old rule and they have just changed it to the following:

"GGPoker allows players to actively play as many tables as they want on desktop, and up to a maximum of four tables at the same time on mobile devices."
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Old 02-15-2018, 05:57 PM   #423
Kyyberi
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Re: GGNetwork: Natural8, etc

The other thread where OP said that GGnetwork stole $5K from him as about "predatory behaviour" rule. That rule says that players are not allowed to exploit opponents to gain monetary advantage.

That is just so silly, as poker is all about exploiting strategies.

So I contacted GGnetwork security, and asked them three simple questions:

1) Am I allowed to color code players according to their skill level?

2) Am I allowed to try and play against the less skilled players, as an example when there are two tables to choose from and I always choose the one with the ”fishes”?

3) Am I allowed to leave table if I estimate that the table is -EV for me (as an example a table full of good players, due to high rake)?

Their reply was "please see our T&C". I replied that it doesn't help, that's why I am asking. So they gave me reply:
"As we have mentioned, what we can inform you is your request can be regarded as violation 'Bum Hunting and Predatory Behavior' of our policy. If a player move from a table to other table in common-sense point of view, it is not considered as violation of the rules. But we would like to inform you that moving tables to avoid playing against specific players or moving tables to target specific players can be regarded as acts of bum hunting."

It is still unclear what is allowed and what is not. What bothers me is that they can't just simply say it. They have the option to make notes and color code players, and you can select your table. And at the same time they say that you can't target specific players. That means that you shouldn't even table select. So why do they have these features in the software?

Now common sense says that I am just making a big thing out of nothing. If GG had common sense, that might be the case. But when you look at the threads about them taking the money when someone is accused of predatory behaviour, it's clear that they work with different policies than other sites.

Too many shady stories, and the total incompetence to say if I am allowed to table select or use color codings turned the scale to "too risky" for me.

P.S. The reason why I wanted to have clear answers was because I streamed live games from one of their sites. As the "evidence" is available, I wanted to make sure that the stuff I am doing in the stream is allowed. I explained this to them at my emails.
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Old 02-22-2018, 06:48 PM   #424
Eselsbrucke
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Re: GGNetwork: Natural8, etc

I would be very careful about doing business with this site. I have had several friends tell me they have had their accounts closed and money taken. They seem to use a vague definition of bum hunting or "predatory behaviour" to justify the bans. I know a couple of them were indeed bum hunting to a minor extent but some of them were almost certainly not. I get the feeling they basically ban winning regs who they feel cash out too much from the site. They also refuse to give detailed explanations to justify the decisions to ban players and take money and will refuse to consider reversing the decision.
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Old 02-22-2018, 10:15 PM   #425
ArnijsBarnijs
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Re: GGNetwork: Natural8, etc

isn't Natural8 regulated in UK? so why not fill a complain?
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