Even if the PVI system broke even to 1.0; it would still mean that GG is effectively taking the winnings of good players and redistributing them back to the losing players. Money is back in play, and everyone can sit at the table longer and churn more rake for the site. Rinse and repeat.

This is the basic scam being paraded as if it's good for the players.

And I'm a fan of GG.

Same. May have been at exactly the same time.

Since logging back in all my player markings are missing and I had a table just close on me.

im deciding if I should take black octopus RB which puts u at 35%

I'm currently silver whale. trying to complete 275000 fish buffet points in 60 days ( which looks like the GOLD whale qaulifcation). I normally just play tourneys on GG. its not do-able unless I play some ALL in or Fold to generate. I'm doing it because the 100 hands promo. So aint tooo bad , but its a grind.

Looks like black whale is flat 50% RB. Do I have to be a platinum whale before I hit black whale? or after I finish this period I will be a black whale?

You have to finish Platinum Whale to get Black Whale

nobody knows anything about "run 3 times" hands?

i just want an accurate database, but PT4 can't read those hands

its 2020, accurate databases are loooooooong gone

I see that PT4 has started to show the rake for GG, is it accurate?

I believe its Player Value Index

Thats pretty much what they are doing and I don't believe they deny it.

They aren't really taking winnings of good players, they are just redistributing some of the rake. Poker sites don't owe any player (winner or loser) rake back so to give those already winning less or losing a bit more rakeback to allow them to stay in the game seems like a good thing to me.

I certainly enjoy rakeback but have always felt that if I am relying on rakeback to be a profitable player, then I am simply not a profitable player and should probably work on my game.

When I started playing online poker there was no rakeback so I've always just felt that whatever I got was essentially a bonus and should not be used to determine my overall profitability.

That's not the point.

The point is they use a hidden formula and being completely opaque on what it does. Instead of being transparent and saying what PVI actually does, they try to deceive players. This is unethical and annoying.

As a user, I have no idea what my rakeback is even when GG says I have 50% rakeback because of blackwhale or what have you. No user have any idea what their rakeback is unless they spend time to guessitmate. Even then it's different for different game types and it can change any time.

What's the ****ing point of advertising x percentage but it actually ends up not x for any given user? And the user dont even know what it actually is?

That's like going shopping and the sign says 50% off. At checkout the receipt doesn't say what percent off at all. It just shows a seemingly random price. You ask the cashier, wtf? Cashier says they use a Customer Value Index. You say WTF! Next customer in line gets a different price.

THIS IS ****ED UP.

The fact that people are putting up with this **** shows the shitty state of poker industry right now.

If GG goal is to help losing players, there are many ways to do it without being deceitful and annoying. Simply give losing players deposit bonuses. Or simply tell people what exactly PVI is and each players PVI. Just don't be lying about 50% rakeback when it is clearly not.

No one is forced to play there....

Any reg knows about PVI

Hi all and sorry if it’s been asked before.. is there any hud working on Natural8 and/or hands review software?

So that makes the false advertising ok?

this is a lazy useless argument

Massively agree. The fact that GG are happy to be misleading is not OK, and should represent a worry to people about the direction of the poker industry.

First of all, it is really important to differentiate between 1) high rake, and 2) a misleading rakeback system, as these two things sometimes become confused. High rake is greedy, and not good for us. However, GG are allowed to make the rake whatever they want, as long as it is as advertised. It is NOT any way deceitful or a scam. However, what is not "as advertised," and is not OK, is the rakeback system.

"But all regs know about PVI?"

I don't think it is necessarily true that most regs understand all the relevant information about PVI, but even if they did, GG must have reasons to be misleading. Against all regs knowing about PVI, I would suggest:

1) A group of regs on a forum or you who talk to regularly does not accurately reflect all regs.

2) Many regs may see beyond the disguise after a while, but may be misled at first.

I have heard of two cases of the most likely suffering of initial naiveness to PVI- two players who knew they would be down before rakeback, but judged they could be in profit after rakeback given GG's major agents advertise "60% flat rakeback," without mentioning the crucial concept of PVI. These two players then after a while couldn't work out why rakeback was not as much as they had thought it would be. In at least one case, that gap between what they thought was 60% rakeback, and what was actually 24% rakeback with a PVI of 0.4, meant that they were a losing player, as opposed to a winner after rakeback that the advertised 60% would have made them. A confusing, stressful losing period because of the deliberate deception of GG

3) Some regs will know broadly about PVI, but still be fooled by something like the new Black Shark fish wheel system being advertised as "60% flat rakeback." That sounds very much, given there is no explanation, like they will now be receiving 60%, not the 12%/24%/30% that it actually is.

It is really important to remember that GG, until May 2019, DID rig the fish wheel, doing everything they could to present it as being random, short of explicitly stating that it was random. They then made it "fair," but simply achieved the same, by changing the speed with which players with different PVIs got to it. Meanwhile, they presented it as if it was some major change. This is the level of deliberate misdirection which we are dealing with. It adds up to deciet, and something not far from a scam.

gg pvi is the new ongame essence. they claim fishes are getting better rewards but who knows, maybe gg is pocketing it all.

Does anyone know the rake in bb/100 for Rush and cash? And what is the average pvi for winning regs?

10BB+/100hands

For anyone interested, played some 5/10 NL recently.

Im used to play mostly on stars where the effective rake at 5/10 is around 2.2bb-2.5bb/100~

Rake paid was 8bb/100
Not sure if HEM3 calculates the big hand jackpot or not so possibly higher (1bb per hand lol)

I roughly calculated my PVI comparing it to what I received in fish buffet vs rake paid and I was receiving roughly 15% of the 50%, so probably pvi 0.3

ps : im down money lifetime on GG, so I should have pvi 1.0 at least, pretty sure this pvi is pure bullshit and they don't associate it with winning / losing

So pretty much unbeatable or very low winrate vs other sites (especially that a lot of the fish are playing with 20bb and HNR)

They are just trying to swallow all the money trough rake like a private live game with 5 fish and 4 pro playing with the host money with a 3bb rake.

They don't just look at up or down, they look at how many tables you play at once etc etc and probably your vpip etc etc and they place you in reg category even if losing so your pvi will be in the dumpster. Your PVI is also different for different games and stakes. If you 4 table one stake then later try play 1 table of higher stake with nothing else you will see your PVI will start higher again at that game.

So ya there are more factors then just winning or losing. And I'm sure most players are dropped down to .2 or .3 etc

@sturutter
@CheckCheckFold

You both make great points and I agree that the lack of transparency is a problem and likely the biggest problem in the entire PVI / reward system.

If you simply told players exactly what they were getting then there should be no issue with the system. I reread a bunch of their promos and info pages and caught on to some of the wording like "up to 60%" and "player tendencies" making it pretty much open ended as to the amount you would receive and why you may not get the same as someone else.

I'm still happy with GGpoker as I think they have a great product but it certainly could be made a lot better if they would sort out the PVI system. As more players feel like they are getting screwed, the traffic they are so desperate to keep is going to start moving somewhere else. They are neck and neck with Stars from what I can see for traffic, would be a shame to see them screw it up by continuing to operate in bad faith.

They tried to right the situation of players getting banned (not sure it they succeeded) so it will be interesting to see if they change how PVI and the rakeback system works.

Was just looking at some old posts on pokerstrategy and came across a roadmap for GGPoker. Some interesting stuff. There is an ideas email you reach out to. Perhaps we can flood them with PVI ideas lol.

https://trello.com/b/0SSVUqgy/ggpoke...public-roadmap

PLO8 on the radar, that would be nice.

So I had this worry as well, it's like when stars pretended fish would get amazing chests and they would be redistributing the rake back in a more fair way which obviously turned out to be bullshit.


I had a PVI of around .2 I think at ggpoker.

I recently switched to a different skin and I am getting raped daily but as a new player my PVI is much higher. I am getting like 5 to 6 times more points then I am used to right now and pretty much every wheel spin is giving me the max amount.

PVI obviously sucks but it does appear they are giving fish a lot of RB.

I don't understand where my money is going. I'm looking at the graph of how much I win each session and it's more than twice as much as the money that is shown on my cashier. More like half is going towards rake? like I don't get it at all...?

It's by design, no one knows except GG.