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Old 06-18-2018, 08:14 AM   #1
theSimonman
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Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 245
GGnetwork confiscates funds accusing reputable poker player of using a bot

Hey guys,



GGnetwork has accused me of using a bot on their site, which would be a clear breach of their ToS. They have informed me that my account will be closed, funds confiscated and that their decision will not be overturned.
As you may or may not know, you are not allowed to track your hands on GGnetwork, so it is quite hard for me to prove that their accusations are wrong. However, in this specific case I think I can prove enough to show that their accusations can be questioned by anybody who is willing to trust my logic, my integrity and who takes a good look at what I can gather in my defense.

So let me first tell you the story of how I came to play on GGnetwork:

(CLIFFS of story:
- I have never cashed out
- I never played there much
- Volume last 18 months: Up to 5-6 hours a week of 9-14 tabling, some of this backed by affiliate data, which makes it provable)

A couple of years ago I was working with a chinese poker player who told me about this very soft site that he wanted to play on. He asked me whether I would stake him, I did, and he made a nice profit within a couple of months.

This was around when I started travelling (more on that somewhere here: https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/1...96/?highlight=), so when he asked me whether I wanted to play there too I was interested (Up to that point I had mostly played on Pokerstars with the motivation of investing a lot of time, playing against good players and improving my game), as having a chance of generating a nice profit without investing many hours per week sounded really good to me while travelling.

It turned out that you could only deposit on this site if you had a chinese bank account (It's still like that. This is the site: http://www.tianlongasia.com/index.html), so I sent him the money via an e-wallet and he deposited it for me (support helped us doing this, so we weren't breaking any rules). Probably wasn't a good idea, but oh well.

In hindsight, I wish I had considered how I would ever get my money off the site again, but I probably thought that my chinese friend could help me with this, which seems reasonable. I had known him for a couple of years, and I trusted him. Until he disappeared.

Yea, he disappeared. I was a bit disapppointed and sad, I hoped he would show up on Skype again, but he didn't. I took a close look at the site again (called Tianlong, a GGnetwork skin), realized that I couldn't cash out, and said goodbye to around 6k USD that I had on there.

Oh well. Fast forward two years or so. I cleaning up my accounts and wondering where I wanted to play, and that's when I stumbled upon Tianlong. And OMG, the 6k was still there. This was the first time when I considered whether somebody could maybe help me withdraw my money. I had never even thought of that before. So I looked for an affiliate, and after a while I found somebody who agreed that if I rake enough, he can help me withdraw.

Fast forward another year or so. I wasn't playing much, I was very interested in self-development and spirituality, so I slooowly raked a bit on Tianlong here and there, I had probably raked 10k or so in a year.
Our deal was that I would be able to cash out 20% of what I raked at any time, and some time in 2017 I finally asked him to help me withdraw 2k.

Long story short: It didn't work. Tianlong had told him things that weren't true, my money was still stuck there. To this day, I have never cashed out from Tianlong, because I have no means to. Maybe now you're wondering whether I should simply have tried to chipdump to another account on a different skin. Yea, somebody asked me whether I had never considered that. I hadn't. I don't want to break the ToS. Never did, still don't. So the money was still stuck.

Fast forward to last week, mid June 2018. I have spent months without playing a single hand of poker. But occasionally I still felt an urge to play my favorite strategy game (In case you're wondering: poker), so I would log on to Tianlong and play some micro stakes plo for an hour or so, maybe two. When I tried doing just that, I noticed that my account was locked, and following the instructions in the notification, I contacted GGnetwork for the first time:

Hello,
When logging in on Tianlong on the account "xy" I received a noticiation that the account was blocked for security reasons, and that I should contact this address.
Please let me know what's up and how I can help to unblock the account.
Kind regards,

Simon



I did receive a reasonably prompt reply:

Dear Babahahaha,

Your account is currently locked due to a security issue. We require a picture of your government issued ID and proof of residence, please submit the following documents to us.

1. Main Verification Documents Photographic ID:
A copy of a current photographic ID with your name cleary writtem in english is required. This photographic ID can be in the form of a copy of a Passport, Driver’s License or National ID card. Specifically, it is the photograph page of the ID that we require for our verification checks. Please ensure that your name, photograph and signature are visible on the document.

2. Proof of residence:
This may be submitted in the form of a utility bill, a bank statement, a credit card statement. It should be a recent (recent 3 months) document showing your full name and address as registered on your account with us. If you provide a credit card statement, please ensure that you blank out the eight middle numbers of the credit card. We do not accept a government issued ID as a proof of residence.

Thank you for your cooperation.

Best Regards,

GGNetwork Security



Hey,

That's easy enough. Attached to this email you'll find a bank statement from June 2018 and a copy of my government ID.
Please send me a quick email once you've received the requested documents and the security issue is solved.
Kind regards,

Simon



Dear Babahahaha,

We have received the identification documents that you have sent. But we require additional documents for verification. Please send us another paper document which proves the country that you currently reside in. We accept following document as a proof of residence document.

Proof of residence:

This may be submitted in the form of a utility bill, a bank statement, a credit card statement. It should be a recent (recent 3 months) document showing your full name and address as registered on your account with us. If you provide a credit card statement, please ensure that you blank out the eight middle numbers of the credit card.

Thank you for cooperation.

Best Regards,

GGNetwork Security



Hey,
Attached you'll find a credit card statement that's less than three months old, as requested.
In order to avoid any confusion, let me help you spot my country of residence, as the statement is in German:
1) At the top of the credit card statement you'll find, in light grey, the German word for Germany: "Deutschland".
2) You'll also find that my address, as on the last statement, is located in "[address]". This city in combination with this postal code only exists in Germany. (You can see this for yourself here: https://worldpostalcode.com/search/)
Please let me know if this document proves my country of residence to your satisfaction or if you need additional assistance.
Kind regards,

Simon



Dear Babahahaha,

In order to verify that the user is indeed the owner of the account, we will request for the ID verification of a user who is undergoing investigation. Furthermore, we may ask for additional documents for complete verification. All of the proof of residential documents that you have provided have the issued period from the same statement. In addition, as we have mentioned previously, the format of the documents that you have provided are susceptible to tampering, and the documents appear to have been printed out.

As such, it is difficult for us to trust all the residential documents that you have sent thus far; therefore, please send us a proof of residency document from a different utility.

Thank you for cooperation.

Best Regards,

GGNetwork Security



Hello,
I have to admit that I do not understand your policy, and I am wondering whether you have many customers from Germany, as you seem hesitant to accept documents that have so far been accepted as proof of residence by Pokerstars, Neteller and Skrill among others.

I am confused about this statement: " All of the proof of residential documents that you have provided have the issued period from the same statement." What exactly does this mean? The documents that I sent you are less than three months old and clearly show my address.

"the format of the documents that you have provided are susceptible to tampering, and the documents appear to have been printed out.". I did not "tamper" with these documents beyond blanking personal data, like what I spent money on, that I do not want to share with you. They also haven't been printed out.

Attached you will find my last electricity bill.
At this point, you will have received all three things that you asked for.
Kind regards,

Simon



(And this is what brings us to...)

Dear Babahahaha,

We would like to inform you that we had locked your account in order to conduct an investigation of a security-related suspicion, and after the locking, demonstrated an uncooperative attitude with the Security team's investigation. In addition, upon a thorough investigation of your game records, we had verified that you had used a bot, which is a violation of our network's policy. Your uncooperative behavior was regarded as intentions to circumvent the security investigation. As such, we will proceed to handle this case in accordance with our security policy. We would like to inform you that your account will be permanently locked, and your account balance will be confiscated. Please do not attempt to return to GGNetwork. If you do so, we will have no choice but to immediately lock your account and confiscate your funds.

Best Regards,

GGNetwork Security



Hello,
This leaves me baffled. I am sure there is a way to work this out, otherwise I will go public. But first, let me make something very clear:
I have not used a bot on GGnetwork, nor on any other poker site, ever. I have been a reputable poker player for many years. I am happy to share my screen while playing, or comply in any way, to prove that I played every single hand on your site by myself. I've used statistical analysis tools for many years myself, and those tools will prove quickly that I play the same style as I've ever played on your site.
In addition to that, I would like to strongly object to this:
" demonstrated an uncooperative attitude with the Security team's investigation."
and this:
" Your uncooperative behavior was regarded as intentions to circumvent the security investigation."
True, I am still trying to satisfy your request for a document that proves my country of residence, but please check back through what I've sent you:
With every single email that I've sent, I have attached a document that, according to what you asked for, proves my address. It's true that you weren't satisfied with the documents, so I kept sending you different ones, as you asked me to. How does this fit uncooperative?

I am sure that you, whoever you are, who reads this, has some power over the proceedings here, or can at least forward this email and this issue to a supervisor.
I strongly urge you to do so, as I will go public otherwise and share this issue with the whole poker community, where I am well known.

I will wait for a reply to this email for 3 days, in which I expect you to make it abundantly clear what evidence you claim to have that I used a bot. I will also expect an apology for insulting me by claiming that I behaved uncooperatively, when I tried my best to send you exactly the documents that you asked for.

Kind regards,

Simon



(At this point, I started contacting people on Skype who I hoped might be able to help me, or give me advice. On the next day, I sent the following email)

Good day to you, guys.

To you reading this message:

Hope you're having a good day. Please help me by forwarding this message to a supervisor, or to somebody who I can cooperate with to solve this. Maybe you are that somebody. Please help me solve this issue, as serious accusations have been leveled against me.

To the GGnetwork security Team:

I am outraged at the severity of your accusations. You accused me of using a bot and tampering with documents regarding my residence, now you want to close my account and confiscate my balance.
There are $10,000 USD on my GGnetwork account. I only played on GGnetwork once or twice a week on average for less than three hours each time. I can prove this for an extended period of time, because I was working with an affiliate, who tracked the amount that I raked per week. In addition to this, I have NEVER cashed out, because I'd need a chinese bank account to do that, and I don't have one.

I am willing to do anything to help you get clear that I have in fact played every hand on GGnetwork myself, without any help from software of any kind.
I am hoping that this is still a huge misunderstanding. It all started with your request to see documents that I am living in Germany. Find attached to this email one such proof - A recent utility bill, less than one month old. I am happy to prove this in any way I can if this still isn't enough. Please give me the chance to cooperate with you on this issue, as I've done my best to do up to this point.

Kind regards,

Simon



Dear Babahahaha,

We have explained regarding a format of the proof of residence several times. As we have mentioned previously, the format of the documents that you have provided are susceptible to tampering, and the documents appear to have been printed out. Therefore, we asked you provide us with a paper version of the documents, but we haven't received. We consider this as uncooperative attitude.

All decisions made by the Security team is based upon the collection of evidence handled in accordance with our Security and Ecology Agreement. As we have mentioned, we would like to inform you that we had locked your account in order to conduct an investigation of a security-related suspicion. Upon a thorough investigation of your game records, we had verified that you had used a bot, and there is no doubt about the investigation result. Furthermore, based on the sufficient evidence and records, we would like to inform you that our decision will not be overturned. Please note that if we find you have attempted to reconnect to our network, then we will have no choice but to lock the corresponding accounts and confiscate all funds.

Best Regards,

GGNetwork Security



Dear GGNetwork Security Department,

I hope that you, the one reading this message, are having a good day. From what I understand, both you and me are concerned about safety when it comes to playing poker online. Our strategies however seem to be drastically different.

I have already asked for clarification regarding what you request is in a previous email, and received none. Instead, you have copy/pasted what types of documents you accept as proof of residence.
Unfortunately, I fail to understand what most of the sentences that you write might mean. I assume that you're not a native speaker, nor am I, and it is very hard for me to cooperate if I do not understand what you want.


Therefore, I followed the instructions that I could understand: The paragraph that you copy/pasted several times:

"Proof of residence:

This may be submitted in the form of a utility bill, a bank statement, a credit card statement. It should be a recent (recent 3 months) document showing your full name and address as registered on your account with us. If you provide a credit card statement, please ensure that you blank out the eight middle numbers of the credit card. "

Let me now address the issue of you accusing me of using a bot. You write this:

" Upon a thorough investigation of your game records, we had verified that you had used a bot, and there is no doubt about the investigation result. "

I have not used a bot. I am willing to cooperate with you in any way imaginable to prove this. If your investigation claims that I have used a bot, then your investigation is mistaken.

As you have given me no instruction as to how we could possibly cooperate to solve this issue, and as you have now repeatedly made accusations that I know are not only false but cannot possibly be based on sound evidence, I will now publicize this issue, all emails and my personal deductions.

Kind regards,

Simon



This is my story. The GGnetwork security team accuses me, somebody...

- who has been a reputable poker player for many years
- who had an account with one of their skins and was unable to cash out 10k USD
- who indeed NEVER cashed out (this seems obvious, but I still want to state it explicitly)
- who was at a maximum playing 5-6 hours a week on their site
- who, when his affiliate stopped working with Tianlong, kept that up with no rakeback whatsoever
- who was winning at a steady rate
- who is willing and capable of proving that he has played every single hand on their network by himself without any assistance by any software

... of using a bot (for, as it seems, no personal gain whatsoever, but at the risk of getting banned on the entire GGnetwork).

I am anxious and unhappy about posting all of these personal emails publicly, and about putting my integrity on the line, when all I have to back it up are a couple of emails and a story. But I am doing this because I need cooperation regarding this issue. If you think you can help me, or cooperate with me in some beneficial way, no matter who you are, please reply. Thank you!
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Old 06-18-2018, 08:30 AM   #2
krabis
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Re: GGnetwork confiscates funds accusing reputable poker player of using a bot

Quote:
Originally Posted by theSimonman View Post
Dear Babahahaha,

We have received the identification documents that you have sent. But we require additional documents for verification. Please send us another paper document which proves the country that you currently reside in. We accept following document as a proof of residence document.

Proof of residence:

This may be submitted in the form of a utility bill, a bank statement, a credit card statement. It should be a recent (recent 3 months) document showing your full name and address as registered on your account with us. If you provide a credit card statement, please ensure that you blank out the eight middle numbers of the credit card.

Thank you for cooperation.

Best Regards,

GGNetwork Security
I got same email sent to me after my account was blocked.

First i sent them bill what i had used on other rooms to verify account but they did not accept because this strange "not includes country" thing.

If you go to your bank/login to your internet bank you can request English(!) statement from your bank what include proof of your residence (It will include country in most cases but you can ask specifically about it to bank). It should take 1-3 days to get this statement from bank.
(This is not simple balance statement or similar what you can get for free but paid statement what is signed and stamped by bank officials, it might be called bank certificate or similar).

I got it and send them and then they asked to photo all docs in same pic with memo and then they asked explanation about some accusations and when they was happy with my explanation then they unblocked my account.

Hope it helps.

Last edited by krabis; 06-18-2018 at 08:59 AM.
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Old 06-18-2018, 08:33 AM   #3
theSimonman
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Update

For the sake of transparency, I have just sent them this email:

Dear GGnetwork security department,

I have just made this post:

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/2...g-bot-1715156/

From this moment onward, every email that is being sent regarding this issue will be made public by me.
I am informing you of this for the sake of honesty and fairness.
I hope that you're having a good day.

Kind regards,

Simon
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Old 06-18-2018, 08:47 AM   #4
Carl Trooper
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Re: GGnetwork confiscates funds accusing reputable poker player of using a bot

Assuming you are truthful (and I do believe you) I feel like this is the sort of stuff that makes people snap.

ESP when they give no evidence on how you were using a “bot”

Seems like an easy cash grab for a company to just seize funds.

I’d probably find out where they operate from and pay them a visiit if it wasn’t too far away. So scummy.

Goodluck, hope you get your $ back
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Old 06-18-2018, 09:03 AM   #5
theSimonman
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Re: GGnetwork confiscates funds accusing reputable poker player of using a bot

I took a look at the GGNetwork site and sent this email to contact@ggnetwork.com:

Hello,

I hope you're having a good day. Please be advised that this matter is being handled publicly by me because of a lack of cooperation by somebody acting in the name of the GGsecurity department regarding this case.

I have received statements that repeatedly state that I was using a bot on your network, or specifically, on the Tianlong skin. As I know that not to be the case I am worried about potential tampering with my playing statistics by said skin, or other means of faking an investigation.
I have not used a bot, and I believe that I can make a strong case to prove that.

Read more here:

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/2...g-bot-1715156/

I am hoping that we can resolve this issue to our mutual satisfaction. In order to make progress I would be grateful if a native English speaker could get back to me in order to discuss how we can cooperate in order to solve this issue.

Kind regards,

Simon
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Old 06-18-2018, 09:24 AM   #6
krabis
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Re: GGnetwork confiscates funds accusing reputable poker player of using a bot

I don't want defend poker rooms much as they tend to do some pretty shady things but in this case you have not provided them with paper version of the documents what proof your address what they have asked repeatedly. Also me getting similar requests seem indicate it just common practice for them not one time case.
You can get that from your bank/utility services for free/15$ max depends where you get it. (They accepted my paper bank statement with bank signatures/stamps ect.)

Why have you not been able provide this information if you live where you are supposed to live?
I am not trying to attack you in any way, maybe you was just not aware of theses option as they are very shady and confusing as don't tell you about theses options.

p.s. I still think ggnetwork is very shady and you should keep as little money possible with them.

Last edited by krabis; 06-18-2018 at 09:42 AM.
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Old 06-18-2018, 09:35 AM   #7
kamuz
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Re: GGnetwork confiscates funds accusing reputable poker player of using a bot

‘GG’ network
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Old 06-18-2018, 11:15 AM   #8
pmarrsouth
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Re: GGnetwork confiscates funds accusing reputable poker player of using a bot

Another poster here has also been accused of the same thing. He is trying to sort it out with GG before posting here.

They submitted 0 proof to him in their 2 emails about it. He will also happily record himself and talk to them on phone/skype while playing his usual 10-12 tables

They suspended his account after his first cashout request and followed up a week later saying that they look at all his hands & determined he is a bot. He sent a follow up with information about showing them his play, info about him playing on other sites, etc and they pretty much sent the same email in reply to it

“Good” that others are in the same situation and not just him. Redic situation of course
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Old 06-18-2018, 11:28 AM   #9
theSimonman
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Re: GGnetwork confiscates funds accusing reputable poker player of using a bot

Quote:
Originally Posted by krabis View Post
Why have you not been able provide this information if you live where you are supposed to live?
Thanks for letting me know how I can clarify my position.
I'll do my best to answer why I haven't provided the paper documents, and why I can:

In their 3rd email, they made this request:
"Please send us another paper document which proves the country that you currently reside in."

Their use of "another" was probably what confused me here. I had already sent them one, and they needed another. That was easy for me to do, and I wanted to comply quickly, so I found another (paper) document and sent it over. Keep in mind that I had no idea what this "security issue" was about, and acted under the assumption that it's a fairly common check of identity and residency. I figured that they would be able and willing to clarify what they mean if any document that I send them still doesn't meet their criteria.

Fast forward to their 4th email:

"In addition, as we have mentioned previously, the format of the documents that you have provided are susceptible to tampering, and the documents appear to have been printed out."

This is their explanation why they aren't happy with what I sent so far. Apparently, one problem is that the documents that I sent so far "appear to have been printed out". They also mention that they "mentioned this previously" ,"this" being the potential tampering. Well, as you can read for yourself, they hadn't mentioned it previously. Alright, well, the documents that I sent them haven't been printed out, so at least I can state that in my reply. Then they make another request:

"As such, it is difficult for us to trust all the residential documents that you have sent thus far; therefore, please send us a proof of residency document from a different utility."

Alright, so they want something that isn't susceptible to tampering (I don't know which documents are susceptible to tampering) and they want something that doesn't appear to have been printed out (I apparently don't know how to spot this, as the documents that I sent them don't look printed out to me). And their request is that they want me to send them something from a different utility. No mention of a paper document here.
Well, I complied with what I thought they requested, and I also addressed their issues about the tampering and the printing out (as you can see in my reply).

Now, the way I read your question you assume that because I haven't sent them a paper document (meaning, apparently, a letter that was sent to me by a bank or a utility company) I can't. Well, I didn't send them one because I didn't understand that that's what they wanted. I've had to prove where I live to many poker sites and e-wallets before, and so far this had always worked. I probably didn't even give these emails 100% of my attention. I looked for a clear request and did my best to comply reasonably quickly, and I saved the options that would take the most time and effort for later (as, I believe, most people do). I wish I had known that this was about a potential breach of ToS, in that case I would have made very sure that I give them exactly what they want, and quickly. But I did not.

Now, I could easily send them a paper document, and I would, if this was still about proving to them where I live. (As an aside, if you guys think it's important for me to prove where I live, I am happy to show three reputable twoplustwo-members as many paper documents as they wanna see).

But this issue isn't about where I live anymore. They have accused me of using a bot on their network. How does proving where I live prove that I haven't used a bot?
So, at this point, I am trying to prove to them that I have never used a bot.

Please let me know if I was able to make myself clear, and thanks again for your post.

Last edited by theSimonman; 06-18-2018 at 11:43 AM.
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Old 06-18-2018, 11:47 AM   #10
Knittle
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Re: GGnetwork confiscates funds accusing reputable poker player of using a bot

Quote:
Originally Posted by theSimonman View Post
Thanks for letting me know how I can clarify my position.
I'll do my best to answer why I haven't provided the paper documents, and why I can:

In their 3rd email, they made this request:
"Please send us another paper document which proves the country that you currently reside in."

Their use of "another" was probably what confused me here. I had already sent them one, and they needed another. That was easy for me to do, and I wanted to comply quickly, so I found another (paper) document and sent it over. Keep in mind that I had no idea what this "security issue" was about, and acted under the assumption that it's a fairly common check of identity and residency. I figured that they would be able and willing to clarify what they mean if any document that I send them still doesn't meet their criteria.

Fast forward to their 4th email:

"In addition, as we have mentioned previously, the format of the documents that you have provided are susceptible to tampering, and the documents appear to have been printed out."

This is their explanation why they aren't happy with what I sent so far. Apparently, one problem is that the documents that I sent so far "appear to have been printed out". They also mention that they "mentioned this previously" ,"this" being the potential tampering. Well, as you can read for yourself, they hadn't mentioned it previously. Alright, well, the documents that I sent them haven't been printed out, so at least I can state that in my reply. Then they make another request:

"As such, it is difficult for us to trust all the residential documents that you have sent thus far; therefore, please send us a proof of residency document from a different utility."

Alright, so they want something that isn't susceptible to tampering (I don't know which documents are susceptible to tampering) and they want something that doesn't appear to have been printed out (I apparently don't know how to spot this, as the documents that I sent them don't look printed out to me). And their request is that they want me to send them something from a different utility. No mention of a paper document here.
Well, I complied with what I thought they requested, and I also addressed their issues about the tampering and the printing out (as you can see in my reply).

Now, the way I read your question you assume that because I haven't sent them a paper document (meaning, apparently, a letter that was sent to me by a bank or a utility company) I can't. Well, I didn't send them one because I didn't understand that that's what they wanted. I've had to prove where I live to many poker sites and e-wallets before, and so far this had always worked. I probably didn't even give these emails 100% of my attention. I looked for a clear request and did my best to comply reasonably quickly, and I saved the options that would take the most time and effort for later (as, I believe, most people do). I wish I had known that this was about a potential breach of ToS, in that case I would have made very sure that I give them exactly what they want, and quickly. But I did not.

Now, I could easily send them a paper document, and I would, if this was still about proving to them where I live. (As an aside, if you guys think it's important for me to prove where I live, I am happy to show three reputable twoplustwo-members as many paper documents as they wanna see).

But this issue isn't about where I live anymore. They have accused me of using a bot on their network. How does proving where I live prove that I haven't used a bot?
So, at this point, I am trying to prove to them that I have never used a bot.

Please let me know if I was able to make myself clear, and thanks again for your post.
Yeah, at this point who cares about the documents. They're accusing you of cheating, and that's the reason your account is locked.

There is something very fishy going on with this site, although I haven't played on it myself something about this whole thing doesn't seem right.

I hope it works out for you Simon.
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Old 06-18-2018, 11:48 AM   #11
krabis
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Re: GGnetwork confiscates funds accusing reputable poker player of using a bot

Quote:
Originally Posted by theSimonman View Post
Now, the way I read your question you assume that because I haven't sent them a paper document (meaning, apparently, a letter that was sent to me by a bank or a utility company) I can't. Well, I didn't send them one because I didn't understand that that's what they wanted. I've had to prove where I live to many poker sites and e-wallets before, and so far this had always worked. I wish I had known that this was about a potential breach of ToS, in that case I would have made very sure that I give them what they want, and quickly. But I did not.

Now, I could easily send them a paper document, and I would, if this was still about proving to them where I live. (As an aside, if you guys think it's important for me to prove where I live, I am happy to show three reputable twoplustwo-members as many paper documents as they wanna see).

But this issue isn't about where I live anymore. They have accused me of using a bot on their network. How does proving where I live prove that I haven't used a bot?
So, at this point, I am trying to prove to them that I have never used a bot.

Please let me know if I was able to make myself clear, and thanks again for your post.
Yes, i was very surprised about their verification system also as all other poker rooms/e-wallets was accepting regular bills ect.

If i had not been previously using banking letter to verify different poker room account i would also be super confused about what they are asking and how to shut them down, it just speculative guess but it might be planned tactic from them.

Also usually they ask lot individual documents, photos of documents together ect. before asking explanations about accusations (Least in my experience). Maybe they want solid evidence it not some random multi-accounting/player who can't proof address to their standards (again this part is very shady from them and i might be just lucky one who got right papers at right time)/underage player before asking and talking about accusations.

They already said "we would like to inform you that our decision will not be overturned" so not sure what is chance to get any money back, i would think it pretty low. But if you want try you might try get this bank letter/similar document and see if they want talk with you more about overturning case but i would not bet my money on it.

Last edited by krabis; 06-18-2018 at 12:09 PM.
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Old 06-18-2018, 04:16 PM   #12
Lemon93PCTSure
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Re: GGnetwork confiscates funds accusing reputable poker player of using a bot

They ban winning players and confiscate money from the table for tableselecting AFAIK too
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Old 06-18-2018, 04:39 PM   #13
sixfour
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Re: GGnetwork confiscates funds accusing reputable poker player of using a bot

So apart from those 5-6 hours a week where you were playing a lot of tables, you didn't play there much
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Old 06-18-2018, 09:39 PM   #14
NINzent
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Re: GGnetwork confiscates funds accusing reputable poker player of using a bot

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemon93PCTSure View Post
They ban winning players and confiscate money from the table for tableselecting AFAIK too
Youre referring to what happened to me, yes, that was the case. Only thing you got wrong was I wasnt tableselecting.

Sorry to hear OP, dont know much else to say
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Old 06-19-2018, 07:41 AM   #15
SirDehi
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Re: GGnetwork confiscates funds accusing reputable poker player of using a bot

Thread is a reminder to include scam equity when deciding to go play on an obscure room
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Old 06-20-2018, 10:03 AM   #16
theSimonman
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Re: GGnetwork confiscates funds accusing reputable poker player of using a bot

Dear Babahahaha,

Your account has been under investigation for a possible breach of our Security & Ecology Agreement clauses 6 & 13, which are Use of Proxies and VPNs, and Use of Artificial Intelligence. As we were conducting an investigation into your account, we had verified that you had used a virtual machine when you had logged in, and the IP that you had used to log-in from indeed is under suspicion for the use of a VPN. We would like to emphasize that the use of a VPN is considered harmful to our network and is in fact, a direct violation of our network policy. In accordance with our security policy, we do not support the usage of any of these methods to connect to our network. Therefore, we had requested the exact information regarding your proof of residence, and further in this regard, requested a credible document to prove your residency. As such, with regards to the first residential documents that you had submitted, we had responded by clearly requesting that your resubmit residential documents in the paper format, to which you sent us the previously submitted documents again in the same pdf format; additionally, your resubmitted documents were the same bank statement. Furthermore, in order to protect your personal information, you had blanked out this information from the first bank statement; this action is susceptible for manipulating the information on the document you have submitted.

Sending us the documents in the paper format via postal mail or receiving the document directly from the institution have no room for manipulation and allow us to trust these documents as reliable sources. However, you had not once sent us a document in its paper format when we had continuously requested documents proving your residency, and the documents you had submitted 3 times were all in pdf format. Moreover, we had concluded that you were exemplifying behavior intended not to cooperate with the Security team's investigation by continuously trying to persuade us with the documents that you had submitted. In this regards, you had used a VPN and logged in with a virtual machine in order to disguise your login information, and we have concluded that you had used bots.

All decisions made by the Security team is based upon the collection of evidence and handled in accordance with our Security and Ecology Agreement. The Security team does not reveal any of the collected documents of evidence due to the fact that it may abuse by users with negative implications if disclosed. As such, we do not disclose any parts of the investigation, statistics, or details of the case. Further, it is intended to prevent the bot creating sites and users from updating their programs if the investigation details and processes are disclosed to the public. Furthermore, based on the sufficient evidence and records, we would like to inform you that our decision will not be overturned. Please note that if we find you have attempted to reconnect to our network, then we will have no choice but to lock the corresponding accounts and confiscate all funds. In addition, we would like to reiterate that we had clearly provided an explanation of the handling of your account, and have decided that the differences in our opinions is at a standstill. Therefore, we will no longer respond with regards to your case, which has already been closed.

Best Regards,

GGNetwork Security
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Old 06-20-2018, 10:07 AM   #17
theSimonman
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Re: GGnetwork confiscates funds accusing reputable poker player of using a bot

Dear GGnetwork Security Team.

Thank you for this reply. And thank you for finally making some clear statements that I can reply to.
Unfortunately, the clear statements that you have made in this message look to me to highlight that...
...you have jumped to conclusions using insufficient evidence.
...you have NOT dealt with this case in line with your own Security & Ecology Agreement.

This is a case of proving or disproving that I have used a bot, and there is $10,000 at stake. Instead you write about proof of residence, and now you have added use of VPN and Virtual Machines into the mix. Your diversion tactics will not work.

The person who I dealt with, who was responsible for communicating to me what you wanted from me, was not a native English speaker. His requests were extremely confusing and whole sentences did not make any sense to me, which I pointed out clearly and unambiguously: I quote from the email that I sent to you on the 13th of June:

I am confused about this statement: " All of the proof of residential documents that you have provided have the issued period from the same statement." What exactly does this mean?
End of quote.

Clauses 15 and 16 of your Security & Ecology Agreement clearly state the importance of receiving proper documents, and it clearly states that a player's account and balance is at stake at the sole discretion of GGNetwork. With all that at stake, you left this matter in the hands of somebody who is not a native English speaker, and you do not account for the fact that statements made by this person might be ambiguous, and players might not know exactly what he requests. Let me quote what the person who I was dealing with, who acted in the name of GGNetwork Security Department, requested of me:

(email 1 sent to me on 11. of June)

2. Proof of residence:
This may be submitted in the form of a utility bill, a bank statement, a credit card statement. It should be a recent (recent 3 months) document showing your full name and address as registered on your account with us. If you provide a credit card statement, please ensure that you blank out the eight middle numbers of the credit card. We do not accept a government issued ID as a proof of residence.


(email 2 sent to me on 12. of June)

Please send us another paper document which proves the country that you currently reside in. We accept following document as a proof of residence document.

Proof of residence:

This may be submitted in the form of a utility bill, a bank statement, a credit card statement. It should be a recent (recent 3 months) document showing your full name and address as registered on your account with us. If you provide a credit card statement, please ensure that you blank out the eight middle numbers of the credit card.


(email 3 sent to me on 13. of June)

therefore, please send us a proof of residency document from a different utility.


And that's it. In your second email to me, you clearly requested another paper document, implying that the first document that I had sent to you was a paper document, too (Paper document is NOT a technical term. "Signed letter from a bank, credit card company or utility company, clearly showing your address" is a clear description of what you probably wanted from me.)

Now, you address this issue in the following way:

" to which you sent us the previously submitted documents again in the same pdf format; additionally, your resubmitted documents were the same bank statement. "

At this point, I am baffled. Haven't you even looked at what I have sent you? I first sent you a bank statement, and then I sent you a credit card statement (from the same bank). Those are NOT the same documents. They don't even look similar, except that they are from the same bank. How much time did you take to (falsely) determine what I was sending you? Is this how you surmised that I wasn't cooperating?

Let's move on.

You write this: "Sending us the documents in the paper format via postal mail or receiving the document directly from the institution..."

This is what you wanted from me? Where is the address that you wanted me to send the documents to? Without an address, I cannot possibly do what you are requesting of me! I have attached to this email a screenshot of your 2nd email to me, the first email where you use the term "paper document". In the email that you sent me, you did not give me an address. It was impossible for me to comply with your request. It still is, to this day.

And this: "we had concluded that you were exemplifying behavior intended not to cooperate with the Security team's investigation by continuously trying to persuade us with the documents that you had submitted."

What does this mean? I was sending you a different document with each email. You have received 4 such different documents, stating my address. I did my best (as I have shown, in this email, and publicly) to comply with somebody's unclear and contradictory requests. It is NOT usual or normal in any way to request paper documents sent per mail to an unknown address. You also did NOT share the reason for your inquiry with me, so I did NOT know what was at stake. My assumption was that maybe on the next day, I would receive an email from somebody with better English, or that in subsequent emails things would get clear.

To the next point. From your email:

" As we were conducting an investigation into your account, we had verified that you had used a virtual machine when you had logged in, and the IP that you had used to log-in from indeed is under suspicion for the use of a VPN. We would like to emphasize that the use of a VPN is considered harmful to our network and is in fact, a direct violation of our network policy. In accordance with our security policy, we do not support the usage of any of these methods to connect to our network. "

Let me quote from your Security & Ecology Agreement:

6. USE OF PROXIES AND VPNs
Any use of Proxies or VPNs is not supported by GGNetwork. We will not support any connection using these methods. Players using such methods will be warned against their use, and upon second breach, the account will be suspended for 30 days.


Your own agreement states explicity what happens if a player logs in using a VPN.
Let's say that I indeed had logged in using a VPN. You did NOT send me a warning.
Also, there was no second breach
(as proven by the fact that you have NOT suspended my account for 30 days).
It looks to me like you have NOT acted in accordance with your own Security & Ecology Agreement.

IS this why you keep mentioning the fact that you are unwilling to provide me with any degree of transparency? Because now that you do, it immediately becomes obvious that you did not deal with this matter in accordance with your own Ecology & Security Agreement?

Let me help you find out what you are requesting from me:

1) Do you still want me to prove to you where I live? In that case, kindly send me the address that you want me to send the documents to. You have not given me one so far, so I could not comply with your requests.

2) How can I assist you in determining that your accusations are false and that I have never used a bot on GGNetwork?

You have given me a good glimpse at your ethics when it comes to handling my case. With that in mind, here are my demands:

I demand a re-opening of this case, and I demand that it be handled in line with your own Security & Ecology Agreement.

I demand that you give me the chance to deal with somebody who can make clear requests in English, and who does not withhold the information that I would need in order to comply with his requests.

I demand that you give me the chance to prove to you that I have not used a bot.

Once I have done that, I demand that you re-instate my account and pay me back my money.

I also demand an apology for the way that you have dealt with this matter and for the time and effort that I had to spent in order to help you get to the right conclusions.


As I have already made you aware of, I will proceed to publicize this email and my own conclusions drawn from it.
Kind regards,

Simon
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Old 06-20-2018, 10:07 AM   #18
pmarrsouth
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Re: GGnetwork confiscates funds accusing reputable poker player of using a bot

What address did they provide to you in their emails to you when asking for documents?

—-

I guess we posted at the same time. Solid work on not providing you a postal address, but continued requesting the documents over and over. Hopefully someone internally higher up has been made aware of these cases by now, and will have them properly looked at

Last edited by pmarrsouth; 06-20-2018 at 10:18 AM.
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Old 06-20-2018, 10:18 AM   #19
theSimonman
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Re: GGnetwork confiscates funds accusing reputable poker player of using a bot

Dear GGNetwork contact department,

I was recently made aware of the fact that your Security Department failed to handle my case in line with the GG Security & Ecology Agreement.

After observing that I used a VPN once to log into my Tianlong account, they failed to send me a warning.
6. USE OF PROXIES AND VPNs
Any use of Proxies or VPNs is not supported by GGNetwork. We will not support any connection using these methods. Players using such methods will be warned against their use, and upon second breach, the account will be suspended for 30 days.

Instead, they used that knowledge to construct a false case, in which they accuse me of having used a bot.

You can read more about the whole issue here:
https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/2.../#post53957909

And a precise description of the disastrous way they dealt with me and the matter of my account and my money on GGNetwork here:
https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/s...9&postcount=17

Kind regards,

Simon
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Old 06-20-2018, 01:39 PM   #20
theSimonman
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Re: GGnetwork confiscates funds accusing reputable poker player of using a bot

What's up guys.

Just to highlight further how much time and attention the "GGNetwork Security Department" allocated to this issue, that would potentially result in my account being locked, me being banned from the entire GGNetwork and my balance of $10,000 confiscated, here are the two documents that they describe as "the same bank statement":

"we had responded by clearly requesting that your resubmit residential documents in the paper format, to which you sent us the previously submitted documents again in the same pdf format; additionally, your resubmitted documents were the same bank statement."





Some clues that would help you spot that it's not the same "bank statement":

- There's two and a half months between those two dates.
- The second one isn't a bank statement, it's a credit card statement.
- The two don't look the same.
- I tell them, clearly, in English, what I am sending them:
"Attached to this email you'll find a bank statement from June 2018"
and then in the 2nd email:
"Attached you'll find a credit card statement that's less than three months old, as requested. "

And it was misunderstandings like this one that then led them to conclude that I was being "uncooperative".

Last edited by theSimonman; 06-20-2018 at 01:54 PM.
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Old 06-20-2018, 03:18 PM   #21
goodsaint
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Re: GGnetwork confiscates funds accusing reputable poker player of using a bot

Quote:
Originally Posted by SirDehi View Post
Thread is a reminder to include scam equity when deciding to go play on an obscure room
+1
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Old 06-25-2018, 08:17 AM   #22
theSimonman
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Re: GGnetwork confiscates funds accusing reputable poker player of using a bot

Dear Babahahaha,

We would like to inform you that the bot-player had not only disrupted the network ecology of GGNetwork, but the corresponding bot-player additionally had caused extreme harm to the general players. As we have explained previously, we have come to the conclusion that you had used a VPN and manipulated the ID verification documents in order to use a bot. In addition, you had blanked out the information from the first bank statement which is susceptible to manipulation of the information on the document you have submitted. Although you claim that you had submitted the proper documents, you failed to submit the documents in the proper format that we had requested. The residential documents that you have submitted thus far, similar to the first document that you had manipulated, are all susceptible to manipulation of your address and name. The paper document that you have raised is not an unambiguous statement, and you will be able to comprehend the contents if you are a normal user. However, you did not even inquire or ask us about the paper documents we had requested and proceeded to send us the documents in a pdf format. Therefore, you had ignored our request and was uncooperative with the investigation by continuously sending the documents in the same format. Furthermore, you had circumvented the Security team's investigation by manipulating the ID verification documents.

As we have mentioned, all decisions made by the Security team is based upon the collection of evidence and handled in accordance with our Security and Ecology Agreement. Of the rules that you have violated, the most severe violation of our network ecology is the use of bots. After we had verified your use of bots, we had immediately blocked your account in accordance with our policy. In addition, when you ask why we had not provided a warning with regards to the use of VPN, further proves that you had indeed used a VPN and VM. As we have explained earlier, the use of VPN and manipulation of your ID verification documents were attempts to hide your personal information and uncooperative with the investigation for the sole purpose of using bots. As such, based on all the rules you have violated, we have come to the conclusion that you had used bots in a harmful and intentional manner, and our decision will not be overturned.

Best Regards,

GGNetwork Security
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Old 06-25-2018, 10:53 AM   #23
theSimonman
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Re: GGnetwork confiscates funds accusing reputable poker player of using a bot

Right now I am tired of receiving emails that do not address the issues that I am raising. I will proceed to contact the regulatory bodies that issued licenses to GGNetwork, and I will document every step I take here.

Two more cases of GGNetwork confiscating funds have now come to my awareness. One very much like my own, the other reasonably similar:

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/2...le-5k-1702944/

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/2...k-usd-1715598/

Wish me luck!

Last edited by theSimonman; 06-25-2018 at 11:18 AM.
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Old 06-25-2018, 11:44 AM   #24
theSimonman
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Thoughts on benevolent cooperation

When you communicate about any issue, a certain degree of benevolence is necessary in order to avoid misunderstandings.

Benevolence asks questions: Why did you once use a VPN? How would you prove to us that you haven't used a bot? Why were you confused about what documents to send? Why did you keep sending PDF-documents? What wasn't clear to you about the term "paper document"? It seemed clear to us. Please explain.

GGnetwork doesn't ask those questions. Instead, they inform me, the one who played all those hands, the one who tried sending the right documents, the one who tried to cooperate, of what actually happened:

Without benevolence, it's crystal clear that I have once tried out a Virtual Machine not out of curiosity or because I wanted to run their software on an apple computer, but solely in order to use a bot on GGNetwork. It's obvious that I sent the wrong documents not out of confusion, but out of a desire to be uncooperative, and in order to circumvent a security investigation. I am not a normal user, they inform me. A normal user would have understood the term "paper document", or at least inquire about the paper documents that they request.

I clearly didn't blank out personal details out of concern for my privacy. No, I manipulated documents in order to use a bot.

Without benevolence, I, the bot-player, who is not a player but a bot, obviously have not played a winning poker strategy successfully. No, I have disrupted the network ecology of GGNetwork, and I have caused extreme harm to the general players.

The fact that I highlight that their own Ecology & Safety Agreement clearly states that they are required to give me a warning upon single use of a VPN only highlights that I used a VPN. My use of VPN and my manipulation of identification documents, this unnamed GG-representative explains to me, were attempts to hide my personal information for the sole purpose of using bots.

His own story, of which he informs me so eloquently in this last email, has lead him to conclude that I have used bots in harmful and intentional manner.

I have not used a bot. What can I say?

Last edited by theSimonman; 06-25-2018 at 11:49 AM.
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Old 06-25-2018, 12:44 PM   #25
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Re: GGnetwork confiscates funds accusing reputable poker player of using a bot

Quote:
Originally Posted by theSimonman View Post
Right now I am tired of receiving emails that do not address the issues that I am raising. I will proceed to contact the regulatory bodies that issued licenses to GGNetwork, and I will document every step I take here.
Hopefully without coming off as too critical, what are you really trying to accomplish here? I obviously understand it must be highly frustrating to be accused of something you haven't done, but logically speaking:

- As far as I understand, you don't even have a Chinese bank account. So your chance of cashing out the funds are extremely small, right?

- Accusing reputable player of being a bot: I'm sure you are a reputable person, but it's not like you are a known name or anything like that. Overall no one's gonna be bothered about you being accused of being a bot at some hillbilly Chinese site no one has ever heard of.

- The site have no interest nor obligation to discuss the matter further with you. And since they accuse you of being a bot, they do not want to inform you how they arrived at the conclusion. Sharing that information would only make it easier for actual bot-makers to avoid detection in the future.

- Given this thread has 20-something posts, it's hardly like their reputation is being tarnished by you taking this 'public'.

In short, I think you have about 0.01% chance of actually getting some kind of proper answer from them and you are very likely wasting your time with becoming upset by it. Because if you cannot cash out the funds, then I don't really see much to make a big fuzz about.

(just my two cents)
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