We have temporarily suspended your Full Tilt Poker account pending a
review of your table play. This review should be completed within 96
hours.

Because the review is in progress, we will be unable to provide specific
information. An investigator may contact you during the course of this
review for additional information.

We appreciate your patience and will contact you with further details
when our review is complete.

Thank you for your cooperation.

Regards,

Jeremy E
Security and Fraud
Full Tilt Poker


Here's the original letter.

okay.
Yeah, the way you wrote that in the original sentence makes it kind of easy to misinterpret.

Awesome The truth comes out, Gatorade.

No, I'm not actually.

AND THEY DO SO WHILE COMMUNICATING WITH THE ALLEGED FRAUDSTER!

As I've said a number of times in this thread (and elsewhere) there is nothing inherently wrong with locking an account while it is investigated.

There is, however, something wrong with locking the account and not communicating with the person who has had their account locked.

We extend this courtesy to rapists and murderers. Why are poker players less deserving than rapists and murderers?

I don't believe your claim. Here's a local example where the investigators even put out a press release detailing the alleged crimes! This was just the first result on Google.

That's a far cry from FTP where they don't even tell the poor bloke who's had tens of thousands of dollars locked up what he's under suspicion of.

From http://www.aph.gov.au/library/pubs/b.../2000bd114.htm

"The Customs Act also stipulates when personal searches can be carried out. The stringency of the statutory regime varies according to the intrusiveness of the search. The requirements for carrying out an external search are briefly described later in this Digest. If a detainee does not consent to an internal search, an application for an order must be made to a judge. The judge must not make the order unless satisfied that there are reasonable grounds for suspecting that the detainee is internally concealing a suspicious substance...(15)"

The fact that FTP stated that they'd only need 96 hours to complete the investigation -- and that the investigation has now gone over two weeks, makes FTP look even more pathetic and incompetent.

But the OP shouldn't dare question how long the investigation has gone -- if she does, they've warned her that they'll "punish" her by dragging it out even longer.

I don't see how asking for answers in an email delays the process much more than a minute or two. I'm sure the CS just writes a memo to investigations and asks if so and so's investigation has any new info to be conveyed to the accused. They would simply answer yes or no. It can't possibly delay them in any meaningful way.

Odds are these investigations mostly just sit idle while time passes on for various reasons. Threes no way theres people working on them for hours each day trying to clear them up.

"OMGZZZ!!!! Reading yet another e-mail from this customer asking yet again why we're not responding to her has put me on such tilt. How come she keeps bugging me? This is interrupting my flow. Every time she writes I have to take a 5 hour break to recover from the stress and after that I can't remember where the hell I was on these hand-histories so I have to start over."

Yeah, exactly. It just goes to show you the kind of company you're dealing with when you get a response like the one that FTP sent the OP.

"Running this online poker company would be so much easier without customers"

I think there's a Yes Minister episode in this stuff.

This still isn't resolved? Wtf I read your first post and was astounded by the delay. 47,000 grand sitting there and they just let you flounder. What a [censored] up industry at times.

Lucky my stakes don't require me to leave more than $5,000 onsite. These investigations should not take this long or do we assume that the workload is just too heavy. Hey FT you want to freeze 47,000 then you should hire the friggin staff to investigate it quickly! When they unfreeze your account tell them to pay you interest cause that's what they are earning with your money right now.

If nothing else you would think they would resolve it one way or another to get this thread off of the first page... good job FT!

OP: sounds like you got a bit more information and a timescale. If you haven't, you should have done and I'd agree with CS guy that a lawyer's letter before action may at least jog them into committing to those two things if they haven't already, although a lawyer would not be saying anything you couldn't say yourself. I'd be glad to help you draft a suitable letter if you'd like. I definitely think you should get a commitment to pay interest as I said before.

Josem, I'm not going to get into an argument with you off topic. But you clearly have no actual experience of dealing with money laundering regs, or with customs. I'll just say that obtaining a search warrant or worldwide Mareva from your local Court does NOT presuppose sharing any information with the subject of the order. As to the duties of bank employees (and any other professionals for that matter) in this sort of situation, you might want to google the offence of "tipping off" if you're interested, which is certainly extant across the EU, I can't speak for Australia.

I doubt these are very useful parallels to draw in any case.

But, I do think it would be very helpful if someone from Full Tilt would give a PR explanation as to what exactly their policy is in relation to handling customers who are suspected of fraud or any other gaming irregularity. Also, what their duties are in relation to the suspected proceeds of criminal activity, is the money placed on deposit during investigations, if not why not? If there is criminal activity, are the police notified? And so forth. I think it would be beneficial to FT and the community in general to have a bit more transparency about these matters.

I think it would help all of us to know that there is actually a policy and not just a series of random decisions depending on who happens to pick up the file.

FTP Sean, could you help with that? You've made some helpful general statements in the past, but could FT provide some sort of charter or statement of terms so that anyone who does get caught up in this process at least has a clear idea of where it will end and what will happen.

The witchhunt of mid-high hu limit players on full tilt is making me uncomfortable. If poker girl z doesn't get her money back, then I will be pulling the rest of my funds from FT and moving them to stars.

I agree and we have Crazy Mike to thank. Unfortunately, what were likely good intentions in the beginning have since manifested themselves into outright paranoia. What was once simply an attempt to eliminate bots has turned into a personal vendetta against anyone who won't play Mike or anyone who beats Mike.

BTW Mike, you still haven't answered why you listed Dean as a bot on your site. Care to explain?

The intent of a lawyer letter is that it threatens a site with bad publicity. I would guess that a site like Full Tilt Poker that relies so heavily on marketing and PR as a strong part of its business model to not let a poorly handled fraud investigation bring it down. Imagine if this story breaks out into mainstream headline news.

This depends on the jurisdiction and the severity of the case. With big fraudulent cases, usually ones that exceed over $100,000 in fraudulent funds the FBI, Secret Service, Interpol and other international law enforcement agencies have been actively involved working together with the sites and the processors.

I am honestly concerned for sillysal. I really hope she at least hears something from FTP. Please keep us updated on this situation, I can only imagine what a nervouse wreck this had made you.

What/where is Mike's site?

I think that a letter from a lawyer can have a much stronger affect even if it says the same thing. Why? Well, first it tells FT that you are represented and getting serious, and that a lawyer may actually take action against them. The lawyer can send a series of progessively stronger letters setting timetables. If nothing happens, the lawyer can state that if certain actions do not occur, suit against FTP may be filed in state or federal court. This would really turn up the heat on them, imagine the publicity to FTP and online poker if the mainstream media picked up on this. A letter from you is likely to be disregarded.

Sillysal, if you decide to contact someone, you would want someone in your state which is where any legal action would likely be filed. If you are in one of those states where poker may not be legal, you have a big problem with that line of attack.

out of curiosity, what address would you send the letter to?

out of curiosity, which court do you think FTP would submit itself to?

You could send a letter to FTP online via e-mail, or find an address by other means. As far as FTP "submitting itself" to a court, they have no choice. US courts would decide that they have personal "long arm" jurisdiction over an entity like FTP that conducts business with it's residents. In fact, most states have long arm statutes that set forth conditions for such jurisdiction. This happens frequently with websites that have no physical assets in the US. You file suit, and serve the complaint. If they fail to show, you get a default judgment, which can then be enforced in the foreign jurisdiction. But it would likely never get this far. A lawyer could for example recommend the common strategy of filing the complaint without serving it, and then explaining such to the defendant with a suggestion of settlement.

but ftp won't respect the decision of the court....


all fine debating points, but the reality is that no US court has real power over FTP

Huh? They won't respect it? The process involves you taking the US judgment to a court where FTP is located and requesting them to enforce it. Whether such would happen depends alot on the country, as there are no treaties on enforcement of judgments. But the bigger threat is the negative publicity just the filing of such a suit would bring.

The US State Department website says the following re enforcement in foreign jurisdictions:
The general principle of international law applicable in such cases is that a foreign state claims and exercises the right to examine judgments for four causes: (1) to determine if the court had jurisdiction; (2) to determine whether the defendant was properly served; (3) to determine if the proceedings were vitiated by fraud; and (4) to establish that the judgment is not contrary to the public policy of the foreign country. While procedures and documentary requirements vary widely from country to country, judgments which do not involve multiple damages or punitive damages generally may be enforced, in whole or in part, upon recognition as authoritative and final, subject to the particulars cited above, unless internal law mandates a treaty obligation.

your thinking is dependent upon world wide recognition of US court decisions.

the rest of the world does not necessarily do this.