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Old 10-26-2007, 02:02 PM   #101
Tachyon
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Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

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Dear FT,

The longer you go without even contacting this customer while she is VERY POLITELY begging you to do so regarding her $47-FREAKING-K...the more potential customers you will scare away.

For $47k being locked-up I believe this customer deserves a phone-call or three updating her on the situation.
Yeah yeah yeah...you don't normally have phone-support. But obviously your e-mail stuff is pretty darned slow and I think somebody over there can take time out of their busy schedule to keep this customer informed. Sorry if it breaks up your day and all and you really don't feel like doin git because you have better things to do like fixing your laggy software or something. And I think it's great that guys like Doug and Sean make up for some of the lack of contact with your customers by appearing on these forums every once in awhile. But people are getting kind of sick of reading of all the situations like this where the communication is practically zero.

Several months ago there was a commitment made on these forums to improve in matters such as this. Well, picking up the phone and calling your customer who is likely really freaking out about their $47-FREAKING-K would be a nice way to START to make good on such a commitment.
Nothing has changed, other than the broken record that is played every time something like this happens to a player.
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Old 10-26-2007, 02:43 PM   #102
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Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

It's pushing three days since Sean posted and no new word, not even some "we still don't have all the info we need but we haven't just forgotten".
Is that how I'm reading it at this point?
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Old 10-26-2007, 02:54 PM   #103
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Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

sillysal posted right after sean that she had just heard from somebody in support right as Sean was replying.
Perhaps Sean thought this meant she was satisfied for the time-being and that she no longer needed to hear back from him or something like that.

But I think keeping the customer updated practically every day wouldn't be too over-the-top for a situation like this. And the customer shouldn't have to hound/beg you all the time just to get updates.

And the customer shouldn't have to sit there and think, "Has it been long enough since the last e-mail I sent? I don't want to bug them too much since they do have my money afterall. Okay, I think it's been long enough now."

One starts to get afraid that FT is going to get ticked at the customer asking them over and over, "any update? can I have my money yet?"
The customer shouldn't be made to feel that FT is pretty much thinking/saying, "just be patient and please stop bugging us about it."

And this whole business of saying they'll get back to you within 2 days or whatever and then NOT doing it is really pathetic. Then you respond a day or two after that saying, "It's now been 4 days and you said you would get back to me in 2 days. Please let me know what's going on."
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Old 10-26-2007, 03:19 PM   #104
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Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

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sillysal,

I'll touch base with the security team on your case. While I don't know the details of your situation, it's likely they are waiting on information from other sources.

This doesn't excuse you being kept in the dark though. I'll see what I can find out by tomorrow.

Sean
It is inexcusible. I've read several of these threads and every person is kept in the dark. That's like getting tried for murder, but not knowing what teh charge is until after the jury has made the verdict.
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Old 10-26-2007, 03:19 PM   #105
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Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

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It's pushing three days since Sean posted and no new word, not even some "we still don't have all the info we need but we haven't just forgotten".
Is that how I'm reading it at this point?
Yes, that is how you read it. Just about 15 minutes ago, Sean PM'd me and said that FTP invetigation team would be contacting me later today. I appreciate him contacting me.

I was writing about once a day and then got a letter back from them saying that I was actually slowing down the investigation. So I chilled for 4 days and then started posting after I heard nothing from them.

I don't want to be a FTP basher. I have up to this point had no problems with this site and have actually had some complaints I've made turn to my favor. I received bot money back during the whole bot scandal and while they have been slow in the past in returning e mails, overall it's been a good relationship.

However, I just know that if I was holding 47 grand of theirs they wouldn't accept "please be patient" and "we understand the situation this is putting you in" . Nor would they accept NO contact for 4 days.

I want online poker to survie and thrive. I want the sites to be diligent in our protection. By the same token, when situations like these arise communication is vital. I've made myself 100 % available to FTP. I will keep you all posted and again thanks for the support.
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Old 10-26-2007, 03:25 PM   #106
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Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

There is almost a DAILY thread on here how FT has screwed someone one way or the other. Is rakeback such a benefit that people would play on such a shady site over earning FPPs at Stars?

FWIW I have never or will never play on Full Tilt so I have no experience with this but there are SO MANY threads like this it would make me never trust this site.

Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice...
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Old 10-26-2007, 03:54 PM   #107
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Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

My guess would be there timing sucks ass to because they had one of there down times soon after they locked your account.

Basically this is the first time ihave ever emailed and not gotten fast responses even though people always complain.

This really sucks i just dont get why full tilt seems to do this so randomly.
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Old 10-26-2007, 06:33 PM   #108
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Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

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I was writing about once a day and then got a letter back from them saying that I was actually slowing down the investigation.


OMG OMG OMG OMG!!!!

This is SOOOOOO pathetic.
FTP - YOU SUCK YOU SUCK YOU SUCK YOU SUCK!!!!


FWIW - if all they're doing is waiting around for somebody's charges to clear or for someone else to send in ID then I don't see how sillysal's e-mails can be slowing their investigation at all.

And if it's really a matter of these e-mails getting in the way of their work or checking HH's or whatever and that reading and writing to their customers is really so time-consuming then that implies that they are taking an abnormally long time to do whatever the hell it is that needs to be done.


The more likely scenario is that they have to sit around and wait for some charge to clear or something but that they just don't want to deal with their customers' e-mails.


So they fire back a good old "the more you write to us, the longer we're going to take...nyah nyah nyah!!!"

Maybe if they actually responded within 3 days or whatever when they say that's what they're going to do they wouldn't have to deal with their customers always saying, "It's now been a week since you told me I would hear from you within 2 days. Please let me know you haven't forgot about me."


Seriously...tellling their customer to STOP WRITING TO THEM because it will make their investigation take longer is so horrible.

FTP Sean and Doug - I know I've been tough in my criticisms of you before but I really have been pulling for you guys because I think FT's success would be good for all of online-poker and I think the more options in safe and secure sites everyone has the better off everyone is.
Believe it or not, I have actually been restrained in some of my previous criticisms as you may be able to tell by my rapidly changing tone through this situation.

but I'm kind of sick of being polite I guess. You guys are not only keeping your own player in the dark but somebody there actually told her to stop bugging them or else they would take longer to get her the money back.

i think there are some serious customer-service issues that FT needs to address right-away. Not of the "we're looking into it and hope to make it better within a few months..." but now.
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Old 10-26-2007, 07:32 PM   #109
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Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

Am I the only one here that sees a possibility that FTP has strong evidence that OP violated some rules? I'm not saying OP is or accusing or anything, but PERHAPS there is reason FTP did this to a 47k customer. Its pretty easy to jump on the "i hate ftp" bandwagon, but lets say that they come out with information in a few days that shows OP used a bot, or cheated somehow. Then, would you still bash FTP for the way they handled this situation?

I'm not trying to insinuate anything, but I just think theres a reason FTP security is doing things the way they are, and I feel its for protection of players. I've never heard of them to take anyone's money without cause.

OP if you have done nothing wrong, then you really do have nothing to worry about. imo
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Old 10-26-2007, 07:42 PM   #110
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Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

"Then, would you still bash FTP for the way they handled this situation?"


Yes. There is no excuse for not communicating with their customers.
There is even less excuse for the statements they actually are giving when they do bother to communicate which include:

"Be patient. We'll contact you in 72 hours" when they apparently won't and possibly had no intention of doing so as evidenced by their failure to follow-through on such a promise in previous situations...or...
"Stop bugging us or we will freeze your money even longer" which is essentially what they said.


Yes, there's a chance that OP really did do something wrong.
But they've had this kind of lack of communication and really lengthy delays in the past for perfectly innocent players.
And whether guilty or innocent I think the site has an obligation to inform their players of what is going on and to actually RESPOND to e-mails.

Your point is valid though that they apparently haven't confiscated funds from innocent players in the past or, at least, don't seem to have a history of it,
Off the top of my head, the poster LimitNinja might disagree with that but despite his protestations to the contrary a few months ago I don't think many people here believed that FT nabbed an innocent dude in that situation.
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Old 10-26-2007, 07:47 PM   #111
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Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

Quote:
Am I the only one here that sees a possibility that FTP has strong evidence that OP violated some rules? I'm not saying OP is or accusing or anything, but PERHAPS there is reason FTP did this to a 47k customer. Its pretty easy to jump on the "i hate ftp" bandwagon, but lets say that they come out with information in a few days that shows OP used a bot, or cheated somehow. Then, would you still bash FTP for the way they handled this situation?

I'm not trying to insinuate anything, but I just think theres a reason FTP security is doing things the way they are, and I feel its for protection of players. I've never heard of them to take anyone's money without cause.

OP if you have done nothing wrong, then you really do have nothing to worry about. imo
I am not somuch bashing FT but you have to admit that due to the sheer number of FT SCREWED ME threads that something is up. I never see such a thread about Stars. Either Stars
> FT or there are lots more shady players there.

Either way FT sure catches a lot of heat and where theres smoke.....
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Old 10-26-2007, 07:52 PM   #112
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Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

Perhaps FTP has done this to innocent players before, and that is definitely wrong.

But I do disagree with "And whether guilty or innocent I think the site has an obligation to inform their players of what is going on and to respond to e-mails." If the party is very guilty and the website has proven evidence, then I don't think that they owe anything to the player.

I guess my point is.. It woudln't be hard for FTP to tell the customer what is at the heart of the investigation, so I believe that in certain situations, the customer is kept in the dark for a reason. I've never really heard of FTP (at least not within this year) not responding to players within 2-3 days in normal situations.

I guess I rather wait and see what the outcome is, before I pass judgement. If sillysal is innocent as she proclaims, then I will agree that FTP was very wrong in this situation, to scare a customer, and to waste 2-3 of their playing time. But if she is guilty of some fradulent activity, then I will have had no problem with how they handled it.
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Old 10-26-2007, 07:56 PM   #113
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Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

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Quote:
Am I the only one here that sees a possibility that FTP has strong evidence that OP violated some rules? I'm not saying OP is or accusing or anything, but PERHAPS there is reason FTP did this to a 47k customer. Its pretty easy to jump on the "i hate ftp" bandwagon, but lets say that they come out with information in a few days that shows OP used a bot, or cheated somehow. Then, would you still bash FTP for the way they handled this situation?

I'm not trying to insinuate anything, but I just think theres a reason FTP security is doing things the way they are, and I feel its for protection of players. I've never heard of them to take anyone's money without cause.

OP if you have done nothing wrong, then you really do have nothing to worry about. imo
I am not somuch bashing FT but you have to admit that due to the sheer number of FT SCREWED ME threads that something is up. I never see such a thread about Stars. Either Stars
> FT or there are lots more shady players there.

Either way FT sure catches a lot of heat and where theres smoke.....
I understand where you are coming from, but like i said above, I dont believe anybody has truly ever been "screwed" by FTP. Maybe mistreated, yes. Also, If you take a look through all of the "FTP screwed me" threads.. you'll notice a certain trend of "newcomer OP" complaints, and the usual "FTP SUCKS STARS RULES" posters.

I'm not an FTP cheerleader by any means, and i'm sure PokerStars customer service is overall better than FTP. But I think FTP is still fairly new at being one of the BIG poker sites, and I think they have improved very much in service.
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Old 10-26-2007, 07:58 PM   #114
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Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

She could be the most guilty bot or multi-accounter or colluder on the planet and that would still be no excuse for them to say, "if you don't stop bugging us we'll just make it take longer" or "we'll contact you within 72 hours....SIKE!!! Ha. Not Really!!"

Yes, they've had a history according to other posters on this forum of not responding to e-mails within 2-3 days. And also being very evasive in their responses.

They should be welcoming of a dialogue.
They should be willing to talk to their players.
They should assume some chance that the player is innocent and that confiscating $47k can be a huge burden on someone and that somebody in such a situation deserves better than the treatement FT is giving them.
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Old 10-26-2007, 08:56 PM   #115
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Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

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She could be the most guilty bot or multi-accounter or colluder on the planet and that would still be no excuse for them to say, "if you don't stop bugging us we'll just make it take longer" or "we'll contact you within 72 hours....SIKE!!! Ha. Not Really!!"
If she is the most guilty bot, or multi-accounter, or colluder, i can care less how FTP treats them lol.

I understand where you are going with the "we'll contact you within 72 hours" and then not, but I think you're taking it a bit far when you say you think she/he deserves anything if they are the "most guilty bot or multi-accounter or colluder on the planet".

I'm sure if she/he were guilty in cheating you of your money, and FTP was investigating it, that you could give two &#%#'s less how they treat him/her.

but maybe thats just me
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Old 10-26-2007, 09:33 PM   #116
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Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

Full Tilt does this regardless of whether the person turns out to be innocent or guilty.
It's their default bad support model.
This isn't an ends justify the means thing.

I hate feeling like I'm piling on, but people are correct- you simply don't get stories like this from Stars where their support simply go missing for days on end about a serious topic.
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Old 10-26-2007, 09:40 PM   #117
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Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

I think that a little piling-on is a decent idea in this situation if people would like to see change.

FT likely just looks at me as some hyper, over-vocal wind-bag who whines and bitches about everything anyway. Besides, I haven't even played on their site in forever.

I sispect they are more likely to listen if more people voice their opinion.
The less people complain the more they can think, "well, it only bothers a handful of players so doing things the same way we always have seems to be good enough for now."
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Old 10-26-2007, 09:50 PM   #118
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Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

Well, the last thing i wanted was for this thread to be hi-jacked into another redundant "stars vs ftp" or "stars > ftp", and to be taken away from the OP's original post, so i'll agree to disagree and be on my way

but surely since people can voice their opinion against FTP, I can voice mine for them. I've been very happy playing at both FTP and Stars, and have found my overall poker experience more profitable than Stars. I've always received polite and fast replies within hours, and have had a few situations resolved rather promptly.

OP, i'm sorry if you're proven innocent and your time has been wasted. FTP says that they are investigating you after watching you play for 96 hours, so there has to be some reason they are looking into this, your fault or not. Hope everything gets resolved!
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Old 10-26-2007, 11:18 PM   #119
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Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

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Yeah yeah yeah...you don't normally have phone-support.
What is this, a [censored] joke?
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Old 10-27-2007, 12:45 AM   #120
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Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

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But I do disagree with "And whether guilty or innocent I think the site has an obligation to inform their players of what is going on and to respond to e-mails." If the party is very guilty and the website has proven evidence, then I don't think that they owe anything to the player.
There's a huge problem with this mindset. If a player is "under investigation", does that not mean their guilt or innocence has not been proven? IF FT knows they are guilty, their account will already be locked permanently, end of story. If they are under investigation, FT needs to communicate properly and come to a resolution as quickly as possible. How do you propose they communicate to the innocent and not to the guilty? They don't know if the person is guilty or innocent until AFTER they have or have not been treated well. You couldn't have a justice system where the innocent were given a fair trial and the guilty went straight to sentencing. The trial needs to come first.

Quote:
I guess my point is.. It woudln't be hard for FTP to tell the customer what is at the heart of the investigation, so I believe that in certain situations, the customer is kept in the dark for a reason.
Not being able to share information with the player due to an ongoing investigation does not mean you tell them one thing and do another, and it does not mean you drag an investigation out without at least communicating with the player.

Quote:
I've never really heard of FTP (at least not within this year) not responding to players within 2-3 days in normal situations.
Then you obviously don't read these forums on a regular basis. I haven't seen one of these threads in a while, but there have been a few this year. And of course I'm sure there's plenty more that DON'T post here.

Quote:
I guess I rather wait and see what the outcome is, before I pass judgement. If sillysal is innocent as she proclaims, then I will agree that FTP was very wrong in this situation, to scare a customer, and to waste 2-3 of their playing time. But if she is guilty of some fradulent activity, then I will have had no problem with how they handled it.
Again, this makes no sense...the ends justifies the means? It will be OK that she was treated poorly if she is guilty, but if she is innocent...oops, now we have a problem?
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Old 10-27-2007, 05:40 AM   #121
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Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

If you play at FT, just play there knowing that if there is an account investigation you can kiss your sanity goodbye for at least 4 weeks during the silent period.

After 4 weeks, then it's time to start the process to get some answers within the next two weeks.

That's just the way they operate, and they've proven they will never change. If you can't handle it, you shouldn't be playing there. They have demonstrated time and again this is how they do their investigations. Nobody should be surprised by it at this point.
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Old 10-27-2007, 06:22 AM   #122
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Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

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Quote:
tell me again why ppl play anywhere else but stars.
I know why, they can't handle not having rake back.
I agree with you, not worth rake back anymore
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Old 10-27-2007, 06:40 AM   #123
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Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

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Quote:
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tell me again why ppl play anywhere else but stars.
I know why, they can't handle not having rake back.
I agree with you, not worth rake back anymore
This is just not true. Without wanting to get into the rakeback v FPP's again, rakeback is huge for many people. I havn't played there for a few months but did play at FTP for about a year with no real problems. I never had my account blocked and they did reply to emails (albeit, slower than Stars).

We get a few posts here complaining and everyone jumps on the bandwagon saying how bad they are. We don't know the full details so the delays may be reasonable.

Microbob, before you start bashing me for what i have said, I do agree that lack of replies in this case are inexcusable. If any FTP rep is reading this please just keep the OP informed. A dialy email is not too much to ask even if it just says the investigations are still proceeding and you are awaiting other information.
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Old 10-27-2007, 09:34 AM   #124
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Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

I see nothing bash-worthy here. Looks all well and good to me.

FWIW - it's not just a matter of everytime this happens at FT we all go crazy and jump on the bandwagon and it's all FT bashing from all the Stars lovers.
If Stars did something like this to one of their customers I would be tearing into them and their inapprorpiate conduct just as much if not moreso. Although the phrase, "this is the type of thing I would expect to see at FT" might pop in there at some point.

Anyway, I don't even go so far as to not recommend people stop playing there and I'm a little surprised at some of those who are so turned off by this incident that they say it isn't worth playing there at all. But if it puts you at ease of mind that your money won't get locked then I suppose it's pretty understandable.
But for those who want to play there I hardly advocate abandoning them entirely over something like this. It's a pretty small risk overall obviously. Especially if you don't do player-transfers and probably also true if you don't play very much heads-up.
However, if you're a high-volume player-transfer and heads-up kind of guy then it seems you run a higher risk but I still think it's more likely to just end up being a major inconvenience and a lot of stress without REALLY having to worry about them stealing your money if you really didn't do anything wrong.

I do think people should continue to speak up though which is I guess what ends up looking like 'everyone jumping on the bandwagon'.
FT's behavior on this has been pretty bad. They might not think they have done anything wrong and that people like me are over-reacting. But if nobody else speaks up and they are allowed to get away with continuing to think that they're doing things just fine then they will just keep on doing it.

And anyone who deigns to actually ask FT why they haven't been responded to within the time-frame that FT themselves previously gave will continue to be told that they are being kind of a pest and that the money will be frozen for even longer if they don't stop.
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Old 10-27-2007, 11:51 AM   #125
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Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

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I was writing about once a day and then got a letter back from them saying that I was actually slowing down the investigation.
Wow, that is messed up.

Situations like described in this thread are the exact reason I never play at Full Tilt.
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