Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Internet Poker Discussions of Internet poker venues, including RB & bonuses.

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-13-2007, 08:23 PM   #951
Moose
grinder
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Winnipeg, MB, Canada
Posts: 535
Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

I'm going to chime in completely out of left-field here, but heads-up limit poker seems to me to be a game where an expert player does his very best to impersonate a robot, and that the reason why you may be seeing such "similar stats" is because the game theory of heads-up limit has almost been completely solved.

I mean, imagine the FTP crew looking at a top-level chess tourney.. OMG so many of the games start the same way! They must be chess computers, one and all!
Moose is offline  
Old 12-13-2007, 09:10 PM   #952
StellarWind
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 7,324
Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrennen View Post
Security through obscurity is not universally accepted.
No online poker site has any effective barrier method of preventing bots from playing poker. Bot security is built around the law enforcement model: you can do it, but you may be caught and punished.

Thus when you speak of security through obscurity you actually have the roles reversed. The botters are the ones that are trying to secure their computers so that no trace of botting can be detected. FTP is in the role of hacker/spy trying to break through the botters' security system and expose them.

Hackers and spies look for holes in their opponent's security. When they find a hole they exploit it as long as they can. Eventually the hole is exposed and closed. It should go without saying that "obscurity" is a fundamental tool for the successful hacker. Publicly announcing a security hole that you are exploiting is ridiculous.
StellarWind is offline  
Old 12-13-2007, 09:43 PM   #953
Synergistic Explosions
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 4,170
Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

Can't the sites set up some tables for bots to play at? They can openly play other bots or real players who choose to sit at designated bot tables.
Synergistic Explosions is offline  
Old 12-13-2007, 10:30 PM   #954
mosquito
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Haven View Post
For the record, owing to your continued protestations that you are innocent and that there must be a huge error in FTP's primary records of your play, you know that I did my utmost to persuade the consultant and his team to allow you to travel to his offices to meet you and watch you play live for two days, to compare actions, timings and whatever else they might want to record, entirely at your own cost for travel and all fees, (which you agreed), but unfortunately the consultant felt that there was no point in accepting your offer. He is certain that as each of the various methods they used to determine bot-play indicated bot-play to such a high degree that there is absolutely no possibility, statistically-speaking, that you were not using a bot during the time you played at FTP.
That is enough for me to seriously doubt FTP's integrity on the issue. While I don't have anything more than a passing interest one way or the other (I do not now, never have and never will play for money on FTP) and will never know with any degree of certainty what the actual case was, the offer to go and play while absobing all the cost of the above is enough 'probable cause' to suggest innocence.

FTP simply could not afford to have her show up and play like her stats. I will concede that given the number of hands required to have statistical meaning, it would be more than a two day operation.

I'm out of popcorn again but looking for something else to entertain me now. This thread is pretty much finished.
 
Old 12-13-2007, 10:44 PM   #955
Crane
old hand
 
Crane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,293
Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

Should Full Tilt reveal their detection techniques? Of course!

Answer this: assuming online poker is legal, and therefore sites were hosted in the United States, and the same situation re: SillySal went to court--wouldn't the host site have to reveal the facts of their case? Of course they would.

But not in a dictatorship. You see Full Tilt has said there is an overwhelming probability. Big deal. You can't confiscate 47K over that. Period. You know how many innocent people are in prison based on overwhelming probability?

My feeling now is I don't care if she used a bot or not. A 47K confiscation is not a fit punishment. Since Full Tilt has remedies in place to detect bots, and they also are able to return the 47K to its rightful owners, then they also (or should) have the ability to determine exactly when and where SillySal used a bot and to what degree. They would know exactly how much money she won botting and how much she won otherwise. Confiscate the relevant amount if you must, but not the whole 47K.

Sue em SillySal. Push this as far as you can. Make them prove it in a court of law.
Crane is offline  
Old 12-14-2007, 12:04 AM   #956
MicroBob
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
MicroBob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 61,582
Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrennen View Post
As far as folks not wanting to play against a robot... I can show you rooms full of Vegas tourists who sit and play slot machines. Against a "robot". Willingly. Despite knowing that the odds are stacked against them. And like any form of gambling, some of them lose and some of them win.

The push against poker bots isn't from the fish who are probably going to lose anyway, and who probably don't see much difference between heads up poker against a bot and video poker (and they'll willingly play that). And in the grand scheme of things, there isn't much difference, is there?

It's not from the casinos/site-operators who are going to get their rake anyway, whether it's from a bot or from a human.

No, the push against poker bots is from the sharks who don't want to give up their current monopoly position. .


Man, I can't disagree with this more.

Have you ever played live poker with a bunch of fish while they're talking about internet-poker.
So many say they will never touch it because it's all rigged and/or a bunch of bots.

So many times somebody new who knows nothing about internet-poker finds out that I play full-time I end up getting asked, "How do you know you're even playing real people? Man, I would never do that. You just know that they're out to take your money."


It's the fish and the total noob's who are SUPER paranoid of bots and your hole-cards being seen by those who have the special program, etc etc.
MicroBob is offline  
Old 12-14-2007, 12:18 AM   #957
_dave_
_Pooh_Bah_
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: UK (or what remains of it)
Posts: 12,998
Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

Bob,

Quote:
It's the fish and the total noob's who are SUPER paranoid of bots and your hole-cards being seen by those who have the special program, etc etc.
The point I am trying to make is there is a world of difference between these two examples - bots and cheaters.

Fish do not care about playing bots imo - see Jbrennans video poker analogy above, or think of the people who pay good money for "WSOP 2007: XBox 360" and so on.

Fish may talk of bots, but only in the context that they are being cheated. Most fish I meet are far more concerned with a scummy site outright stealing there money (lol???) or being cheated by house players / collusion etc. Is this not your experience? When they talk of rigged - they are meaning the SITE is rigging it against them in favour of their preferred players, who may be "house bots"?

say: "How do you know you're even playing real people?" response: "I don't, and it does not matter. If I can beat a player, I don't care if they are real or not, their money is just as good. If I find myself against a player that I cannot beat - I don't care if they are real or not, I switch tables to find players I can beat".

Ser4iously, if you are beating up a table full of fish - do you even pause to consider how many of them may be bots?
_dave_ is offline  
Old 12-14-2007, 12:40 AM   #958
daisybreezey
enthusiast
 
daisybreezey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: adults only
Posts: 70
Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

Ok fwiw I am in contact with Gerald Boyle for those who dont know who he is , he was Jeffrey Dhamers/ Mark Chmuras criminal defense attorney. I was interested in knowing what if anything a US player on the net could do in this situation. He didnt get into great detail as hes a busy man but NOT MUCH. Internet gambling is illegal in the US. If you knowingly ingage in crimanal activities and are defrauded , you have very few legal rights. He said to advise against trying US courts, as you might find an attorney here who might take the case but in more cases than not it will cost you more in legal fees than the little or anything you would get back. The only alternative is to fight them in their country..But most of these offshore holding companies have so many ways to hide ..it.ll cost you more just to find who you really can sue. Since he didnt know more about Canadas laws he couldnt go much farther. Sorry this isnt incouraging.
daisybreezey is offline  
Old 12-14-2007, 02:38 AM   #959
MicroBob
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
MicroBob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 61,582
Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

"He didnt get into great detail as hes a busy man but NOT MUCH. Internet gambling is illegal in the US. "


Having defended Dahmer does not make him an expert on the UIGEA or the legality of internet-gambling in the U.S.
IOW, there are many people who disagree with his assertion including many lawyers.
Although his is a popular misconception that I'm sure is shared by many other lawyers who know virtually nothing about internet-gambling.
MicroBob is offline  
Old 12-14-2007, 08:34 AM   #960
Crane
old hand
 
Crane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,293
Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

Quote:
Originally Posted by MicroBob View Post
"He didnt get into great detail as hes a busy man but NOT MUCH. Internet gambling is illegal in the US. "


Having defended Dahmer does not make him an expert on the UIGEA or the legality of internet-gambling in the U.S.
IOW, there are many people who disagree with his assertion including many lawyers.
Although his is a popular misconception that I'm sure is shared by many other lawyers who know virtually nothing about internet-gambling.
Is it your contention that Internet gambling is Legal in the USA?
Crane is offline  
Old 12-14-2007, 08:57 AM   #961
Rek
HUZA 2008
 
Rek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: London
Posts: 10,035
Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crane View Post
Is it your contention that Internet gambling is Legal in the USA?
Is it your contention that Internet gambling is illegal in the USA?
Rek is offline  
Old 12-14-2007, 09:04 AM   #962
qpw
banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Pulling the tails of rigtards
Posts: 4,019
Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

I think that the correct statement is: "Internet gambling is not illegal in the USA"
qpw is offline  
Old 12-14-2007, 09:14 AM   #963
Mike Moon
centurion
 
Mike Moon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: ♠
Posts: 161
Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

Either your keyboard is missing some letters or you are using some alternative alphabet.

Suppose this is the daily fairy tale...
Mike Moon is offline  
Old 12-14-2007, 09:27 AM   #964
qpw
banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Pulling the tails of rigtards
Posts: 4,019
Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Moon View Post
Either your keyboard is missing some letters or you are using some alternative alphabet.

Suppose this is the daily fairy tale...
Can you not post in a coherent manner?

To whom is that comment addressed?
qpw is offline  
Old 12-14-2007, 09:47 AM   #965
Bobo Fett
2+2 Ad Man
 
Bobo Fett's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Canada, eh!
Posts: 48,259
Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

Quote:
Originally Posted by qpw View Post
To whom is that comment addressed?
QFT.

People really need to pay attention and take note of the fact that the new forum software does not show who you are replying to. If you are not replying to the previous post, you need to either quote the post you are replying to, or you should address your post to the person being replied to.

In this case, I assume our new all-star poster daisybreezey is being addressed. Hopefully he/she (daisy) improves in a hurry or bores of posting here, because his/her posts are like fingernails on a blackboard right now.
Bobo Fett is offline  
Old 12-14-2007, 10:57 AM   #966
daisybreezey
enthusiast
 
daisybreezey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: adults only
Posts: 70
Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

i never said you couldnt do anything it depends i guess on how much u are willing to go with it..every one has legal rights depends case to case..i just asked a broad question to him didnt get into details of anyone in piticular...some people might need to know just asked his office a question...they called back its free to consullt a lawyer and i happened to have groomed his newfies , not meant to be legal advise to anyone.everyone here that gambles on the net fears that something like this could happen to them .
daisybreezey is offline  
Old 12-14-2007, 12:36 PM   #967
Mike Moon
centurion
 
Mike Moon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: ♠
Posts: 161
Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

Quote:
Originally Posted by qpw View Post
Can you not post in a coherent manner?

To whom is that comment addressed?
daisybreezey
Mike Moon is offline  
Old 12-14-2007, 12:40 PM   #968
Mike Moon
centurion
 
Mike Moon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: ♠
Posts: 161
Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobo Fett View Post
QFT.

People really need to pay attention and take note of the fact that the new forum software does not show who you are replying to. If you are not replying to the previous post, you need to either quote the post you are replying to, or you should address your post to the person being replied to.

In this case, I assume our new all-star poster daisybreezey is being addressed. Hopefully he/she (daisy) improves in a hurry or bores of posting here, because his/her posts are like fingernails on a blackboard right now.
Ty for the tip. Quite right about who I adressed. "She's" the new star...

qpw: explain what you mean by coherent. Do I miss something? Are you levelling me?
Mike Moon is offline  
Old 12-14-2007, 12:48 PM   #969
Rek
HUZA 2008
 
Rek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: London
Posts: 10,035
Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

Am I the only one that would like to see sillsal and daisy get it together?
Rek is offline  
Old 12-14-2007, 01:47 PM   #970
Mike Moon
centurion
 
Mike Moon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: ♠
Posts: 161
Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rek View Post
Am I the only one that would like to see sillsal and daisy get it together?
lol...great idea
Mike Moon is offline  
Old 12-14-2007, 02:40 PM   #971
Mike Moon
centurion
 
Mike Moon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: ♠
Posts: 161
Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rek View Post
Am I the only one that would like to see sillsal and daisy get it together?
This thread is getting out of line but as an alternative to your suggestion I think daisybreezey and qpw has a higher entertainment value...
Mike Moon is offline  
Old 12-14-2007, 09:13 PM   #972
waq
veteran
 
waq's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: In love with Sugar
Posts: 2,700
Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

Quote:
Originally Posted by _dave_ View Post
Sorry, no time - only the first couple of points:



Unless they are cheating... how do they harm the game? just by being bots? do you assume all bots plays perfect winning poker?

Even if they did - so? Are they worse for the game than an expert human? Why?

dave.
How difficult is it for people to become an expert player?
How difficult is it to clone an expert bot?
waq is offline  
Old 12-16-2007, 12:03 PM   #973
Dan Druff
banned
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 318
Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

The innocent man (or woman) has nothing to hide. They want all the facts out in the open, so as to shame their false accusers and prove them wrong.

Sillysal apparently does not want all of the facts out in the open. This makes her position (and innocence) highly questionable.

For example, I asked Sal a simple question that she seems to have purposely ignored. She claims to have met fellow accused botter BeatMe1 (also coincidentally female, also coincidentally originated from Pokerroom) at the 2006 WSOP Pokerroom party.

There are tons of pictures of that party on their site, including many of Sillysal herself.

I asked her to point us to a picture of BeatMe1. Of course I got no response to that. I think that's very possibly because she made up the story of meeting BeatMe1 at that party -- and perhaps they have some association that we aren't supposed to know about.

She is also guilty of multi-accounting. That much is quite clear. However, Sal won't explain what other accounts she used, nor will she explain why she did it. Again, it's a strange information blackout that an innocent person is unlikely to engage in.

There's something very wrong with this situation, and something very fishy about Sillysal's story.

I'm all for protecting fellow poker pros from the heavy-handed tactics of online poker sites, but it looks like we're dealing with someone here who hasn't been forthcoming and may very well be guilty. I say we give Full Tilt a pass on this one.
Dan Druff is offline  
Old 12-16-2007, 06:48 PM   #974
MrEleganza
old hand
 
MrEleganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: U. Meyer's sad pizza, now happy.
Posts: 1,823
Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post

There's something very wrong with this situation, and something very fishy about Sillysal's story.
More than you cited, even. She said she passed along to the mods all of her stats and evidence, "even the bad stuff." What bad stuff? I also believe that the mods are not out to railroad anyone and will judge the situation fairly, so it's worth noting what side of this they came out on.

I've spent days lurking through this thread and I myself went from thinking "those bastards at FT!" to "looks like I was wrong about them (here)."

If she is a cheater, I'd say she realizes the importance of rallying people to your side while things are being decided to assist your cause. Even the FT spokesposter, at first, was dealing with her very sympathetically and apologetically.
MrEleganza is offline  
Old 12-16-2007, 07:00 PM   #975
MrEleganza
old hand
 
MrEleganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: U. Meyer's sad pizza, now happy.
Posts: 1,823
Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

Edited to add:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
The innocent man (or woman) has nothing to hide. They want all the facts out in the open, so as to shame their false accusers and prove them wrong.

This isn't unilaterally true. Someone accused but innocent of, I don't know, corporate money laundering, might want to supress facts that would absolve them but also reveal they are a low-level drug dealer. (Just an example. If you don't like it, I am sure you can think of another one).

But I think in this case, it's true, since I would think the scope of Full Tilt's investigation wouldn't reach beyond poker and her dealings with Full Tilt and other Full Tilt players.
MrEleganza is offline  

Closed Thread
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:35 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2017, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online