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Old 11-28-2007, 04:44 AM   #851
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Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

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Maybe now that the case is finally closed for good, we will hear more from sillysal?
I really hope we don’t.

If you seek support from people (whether they are friends, family or strangers) and they help you achieve your objectives the very least you owe them is the truth and keeping them informed of proceedings. She has received enormous support from this forum. Whilst I was in the minority who seemed to understand how FTP needed to do an investigation I did state that FTP could improve the way they handle such cases. Also I believe sillysal should have the right to counter any claims against her.

I don’t want to hear from sillysal ever again and when she finally came back and gave us the update on her age that was the final straw. I said I was no longer going to post on this subject but now the investigation is complete I think there is something that should be done.

FTP has been very secretive and silent throughout. Whether they have merely confiscated $47K from a cheat I don’t know but I hope that is the case. However, their procedures should be a lot more transparent and their information given to the player of a suspended account should be more accurate and timely.

Many players here no longer feel comfortable at FTP. Not because they doubt the honesty of the games but they are worried, if they are accused, their money will be seized with no recourse and no real explanation as to the charges against them. I think a petition should be organised that we can all put our names to and submit this to FTP:
• We want to know how we can have a fair “hearing” if we are accused of wrongdoing.
• We want an immediate email when the account is suspended as to what we are being accused of.
• We want a realistic timescale as to how long an investigation is going to take.
If a moderator here could organise such a petition I for one would put my name on it.

FTP cannot go into every detail of an individual case and for obvious reasons will not do so. They are however damaging their reputation by their silence.

Advice to future posters: if you seek support from a forum be prepared to sacrifice a little of your time to keep those supporters updated. It is polite and the least you can do.
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Old 11-28-2007, 06:53 AM   #852
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Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

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If a moderator here could organise such a petition I for one would put my name on it.



Posted here.
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Old 11-28-2007, 12:59 PM   #853
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Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

Here is what I have been permitted to pass on. I have asked for one more item of information to be released, and this will follow, if possible:

"Here is a summary of the pertinent details surrounding this case:

• Statistical profiling of the playing style of "pokergirl z" indicated some highly suspicious behavior, suggesting that the player could be using a computer program to make decisions.

• The player was questioned about this, and made a series of responses.

• The compiled evidence and the player's explanations were reviewed by senior staff of Full Tilt Poker, and presented to me for independent assessment.

• The player's arguments were found to have little or no merit, contained many inconsistencies and contradictions, and did not adequately explain the anomalous behavior.

• The player in question admitted to being dishonest in the disclosure of the circumstances surrounding the games in question.

• The player admitted to a violation of Full Tilt Poker policy by using multiple accounts, and initially lied about the use of those accounts.

• It was determined that gross misconduct had taken place, and it was decided that the seized funds should be redistributed to the victims.

From my perspective, the posts by "sillysal" to the 2+2 forums were highly selective, told less than half the story, and were clearly intended to mislead the 2+2 community.

The case is now closed.

Thank-you for your role in explaining the details of this case to the 2+2 community."
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Old 11-28-2007, 02:39 PM   #854
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Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

Sounds kinda like nabbing Al Capone for tax evasion. They took her money for "botting", couldn't prove it, found out she had multiple accounts, figured that would do, and used it as grounds to keep the money.

Meh, I think everyone looks pretty bad here.
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Old 11-28-2007, 02:49 PM   #855
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Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

I know I posted this before, but now with this update from Mike Haven, I will say it again... I am so naive, here I was honesetly feeling sorry for sillysal. I was scared to play at FTP. I said to myself "this poor honest woman has had all of her funds taken away for no reason at all". And now I read Mike haven's post. All I can say is "wow". From now on, I will wait until all the evidence is laid before Mike Haven or the 2+2 community. I have lost faith in the human race, but I will say good job FTP for your investigation. Take care.
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Old 11-28-2007, 03:13 PM   #856
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Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

Quote:
Quote:
The consultant recommended to FTP that they redistribute the seized funds to the victims.
Hopefully, we will soon hear from those whom sillysal victimized that they have received compensation from FTP.

What continues to mystify me is why sillysal, BeatMe1, ericjones, etc., continue to post these sob stories here when it should be quite evident that FTP is unlikely to be influenced by members of this forum in the conduct of its investigations of fraud and/or cheating. I've come to the conclusion that only a truly guilty person is going to waste their time pleading their case here since a truly innocent person would be making far better use of their time by pursuing whatever legal remedies are available.
I think they continue to post their stories for 2 reasons.

1) They hope that by some miracle Full Tilt will buy their stories and unlock their accounts. They are desperate and have no other recourse so they figure, if I spend a few minutes making a post something might come of it. They usually lose well over 20K. I think most people would devote a few minutes if they might get 20K back for it. Also as Microbob pointed out Full Tilt has unlocked accounts based on posts on this forum.

2) They want to know what kind of method Full Tilt and other places used to track them. This information could help them get better at cheating and make them uncatchable next time, which is always the goal.
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Old 11-28-2007, 04:09 PM   #857
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Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

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I think they continue to post their stories for 2 reasons.

1) They hope that by some miracle Full Tilt will buy their stories and unlock their accounts. They are desperate and have no other recourse so they figure, if I spend a few minutes making a post something might come of it. They usually lose well over 20K. I think most people would devote a few minutes if they might get 20K back for it. Also as Microbob pointed out Full Tilt has unlocked accounts based on posts on this forum.

2) They want to know what kind of method Full Tilt and other places used to track them. This information could help them get better at cheating and make them uncatchable next time, which is always the goal.
I think you are correct in 1) and you are wrong in 2)

I don't believe a bot was used.

What I think is that case is that someone developed poker playing program and is offering it to high profile players.

No botting - you click yourself. And the software should not neccessarily run on the same PC.

That's what I'm actually always saying. There is nothing evil in bots, in term of automated play. This (using bot) gives no advantage. You can't tilt - come on ... you win money on the 0.05/0.10$ and deplete the fishes - come on ... It is the same amount of effort as to become a pro player. And any rule based strategy is no different than a pro play - you need to continiously learn and change and adapt it to sustain winning.

The danger (or the imminent point) is when a game get solved, from game theory standpoint. And that is what will happen very soon to heads up limit. Then the game is dead. There is nothing in the world that can stop this, nothing. People will build hardware calculator, and any statistical attempts to catch it will be after many many many thousands of hands.

Even worse. Many HU limit players play very good, so good, like optimal play. Due to the amount of hands they play, they do mechanise most of their play. So it will be hard for a casino to really distinguish a winning player using computer from a winning pro.

Just look at the Polaris vs Laak match. Very few people know (you have to read Mike's thesis) that Polaris actualy beat the humans (this was HU Limit). The human won with statistical significance, but by removing luck that you can remove (theoretically) the bottom line was that the bots played better. So imagine how good Laak should have played ...

On the positive side, anything different than HU poker, and even HU no limit has many years to prosper. Bots are irrelevant to this prosperity. When these games get solved, they wll be dead, and will come the next one (for the online case).
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Old 11-28-2007, 06:39 PM   #858
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Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

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I know I posted this before, but now with this update from Mike Haven,
this is such incredibly bad thinking, and why Mike Haven shouldn't let his good name be used by FTP.

Mike Haven was just copying and pasting what the FTP consultant said to him.


If FTP wants to have a representative on these forums, they should employ one - and not sully Mike Haven's good name with their poor, poor, behaviour.

Quote:
And now I read Mike haven's post. All I can say is "wow". From now on, I will wait until all the evidence is laid before Mike Haven or the 2+2 community. I have lost faith in the human race, but I will say good job FTP for your investigation. Take care.
But NO EVIDENCE has been laid before the 2+2 community!
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Old 11-28-2007, 06:44 PM   #859
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Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

Are they going to redistribute the winnings Antonius has made using different usernames as well?
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Old 11-28-2007, 06:51 PM   #860
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Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

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They took her money for "botting", couldn't prove it, found out she had multiple accounts, figured that would do, and used it as grounds to keep the money.

From the limited info we have seen (ty ty Mike) - this is what it looks like to me too

It seems anyone who has used the family member / new account trick to illegally get FTP rakeback should now seriously fear any investigation
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Old 11-28-2007, 09:07 PM   #861
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Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

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But NO EVIDENCE has been laid before the 2+2 community!
This is false. The stats post showing three nearly identical players was certainly evidence.

It seems reasonably clear that the same person or bot was playing on several accounts. If this was a bot then she's 100% guilty: close all the accounts, keep the money, and blacklist the owners.

Let's assume that all she did is use three accounts during the same time period (but not at the same table). Some have compared this with the socially accepted but rule-breaking action of creating a different account for rakeback. Sorry, I don't see it that way. A HU player sitting at tables under three different names is taking gross advantage of the other players. It isn't a fair fight the second time we play. She has a whole session of experience with me and I have no idea we even played before. For those of you who don't play HU, let me emphasize this is a huge advantage.

I understand that some networks do permit multiple accounts or screenname changes, but FTP isn't one of them. Someone who breaks the rules and gains a major advantage over other players is a cheater.

The way I see it, the *best* case for SillySal at this point is:

1. She's not a botter, she's merely a rule-breaker and high-stakes cheat who victimized other players out of a lot of money.

2. She's a liar who took advantage of the Zoo. She always had a very good idea why FTP might be investigating her. Probably all of here accounts were frozen at once. Certainly she wasn't an innocent victim.

3. She's a libeler who has smeared the reputation of FTP and online poker in general. FTP may have been insensitive and bungling but she is a malicious wrongdoer who created the whole situation in the first place.

If she had been upfront when the investigation started I would have supported mercy. But she lied, stonewalled them, and dragged their name through the mud. If FTP mistakenly concluded she's a botter instead of a multiaccounter then whose fault is that? She's the one who concealed the truth.

Cheater, liar, libeler, rule-breaker. Confiscation of funds is completely appropriate even if she isn't a bot. The rules say they can do it and the punishment fits the crime.

I'll save my tears for when a truly innocent person comes here and no one believes a word they say. That person will be another victim of SillySal.

PS: Don't misunderstand this post. I still think she's probably a botter. Alternative explanations are far-fetched.
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Old 11-28-2007, 09:26 PM   #862
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Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

StellarWind,
Quote:

Let's assume that all she did is use three accounts during the same time period (but not at the same table). Some have compared this with the socially accepted but rule-breaking action of creating a different account for rakeback. Sorry, I don't see it that way. A HU player sitting at tables under three different names is taking gross advantage of the other players. It isn't a fair fight the second time we play. She has a whole session of experience with me and I have no idea we even played before. For those of you who don't play HU, let me emphasize this is a huge advantage.
I agree with most of your points, however it is well documented that certain "high profile" players (Antonious, Bennymine?, certainly others) FTP is A-OK with having numerous accounts.

Certainly plenty of 2p2 have more than one FTP account, although this presumably without FTP's blessing.

Botting or not - if the final justification was "well, we can't prove any other offence - but you had multiple accounts so ty4themonies, bye." - then a good few 2p2ers should be very concerned.

And very annoyed at the hypocrisy of certain "blessed" accounts being allowed multiple usernames.

dave.
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Old 11-28-2007, 09:27 PM   #863
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Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

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Sounds kinda like nabbing Al Capone for tax evasion. They took her money for "botting", couldn't prove it, found out she had multiple accounts, figured that would do, and used it as grounds to keep the money.

Meh, I think everyone looks pretty bad here.
+1

FTP comes off as, "Something's rotten here, we're not sure what, and we can't prove much of anything. The accused is evasive and inconsistent, a sure sign of guilt. She's used multiple accounts in the past, so if we simply revoke her playing privileges and release her funds, there's a good chance she'll be back under a different screen name and we'll be none the wiser. So since we don't want her playing her, and because it's really tough for us to stop her (history of multiple accounts), we can just leave such a bad taste in her mouth about playing here (by confiscating the funds) that she won't want to come back. Oh, and we'll say that we're giving the money back to the 'victims' to help us look good, even though we're not really sure what crime was committed other than multi-accounting, and even though funds confiscation is not part of our policy for dealing with multi-accounting."

Just my humble opinion... And I'm really not much of a cynic in general, but this whole thing stinks to me.
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Old 11-28-2007, 09:40 PM   #864
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Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

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StellarWind,
Quote:

Let's assume that all she did is use three accounts during the same time period (but not at the same table). Some have compared this with the socially accepted but rule-breaking action of creating a different account for rakeback. Sorry, I don't see it that way. A HU player sitting at tables under three different names is taking gross advantage of the other players. It isn't a fair fight the second time we play. She has a whole session of experience with me and I have no idea we even played before. For those of you who don't play HU, let me emphasize this is a huge advantage.
I agree with most of your points, however it is well documented that certain "high profile" players (Antonious, Bennymine?, certainly others) FTP is A-OK with having numerous accounts.

Certainly plenty of 2p2 have more than one FTP account, although this presumably without FTP's blessing.

Botting or not - if the final justification was "well, we can't prove any other offence - but you had multiple accounts so ty4themonies, bye." - then a good few 2p2ers should be very concerned.

And very annoyed at the hypocrisy of certain "blessed" accounts being allowed multiple usernames.

dave.
have players such as antonius been allowed to have multiple accounts at the same time or has FTP allowed them to delete an old account to start up a new one? i'm aware of the latter happening but not necessarily the former. clearly there should be a distinction though.
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Old 11-28-2007, 10:32 PM   #865
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Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

Full Tilt Poker are nothing but a pack of hypocrites. Mike Matusow can use every profanity known to man, and it's fine. High rollers can have multiple accounts and it's fine. Full Tilt can confiscate funds with no redress and it's fine.

It's not fine. It's total BS. I don't care if she's guilty or not. Is the punishment total confiscation of funds for something that others have done? Don't think so.

That's what happens when you deal with offshore illegal sites. They don't have to follow any laws, there are no governing agencies, and they can take your money and tell you tough luck, which has happened to two friends of mine who play the horses on offshore accounts.

I wouldn't ever put a nickel into Full Tilt Poker.
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Old 11-29-2007, 01:09 AM   #866
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Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

Quote:
Quote:
I know I posted this before, but now with this update from Mike Haven,
this is such incredibly bad thinking, and why Mike Haven shouldn't let his good name be used by FTP.

Mike Haven was just copying and pasting what the FTP consultant said to him.


If FTP wants to have a representative on these forums, they should employ one - and not sully Mike Haven's good name with their poor, poor, behaviour.

Quote:
And now I read Mike haven's post. All I can say is "wow". From now on, I will wait until all the evidence is laid before Mike Haven or the 2+2 community. I have lost faith in the human race, but I will say good job FTP for your investigation. Take care.
But NO EVIDENCE has been laid before the 2+2 community!
I think Mike Haven is the best mod on all of the 2+2 forums, so this is not ruining his name for me. I was just posting how I feel. Have a good evening...
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Old 11-29-2007, 02:33 AM   #867
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Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

This is another good example of why Stellar Wind is consistently one of the best posters on this site.
Even if you want to take issue with any particular point it's such a well thought out well written post.
I'm not going to bother wondering any more whether sal was botting or simply engaged in clear bad behavior of another sort at Full Tilt.
Either when combined with a misuse of the valuable forum we call the zoo is enough for me to stop caring.
That doesn't clear Full Tilt of what I believe are real and ongoing communication problems between them and their customers.
This thread focalized the debate on that issue, and I think we need to go forward with our thoughts on that while leaving sal and her case behind.

imo.

fwiw.


edited to add: I wasn't a regular in the zoo until some relatively short while ago, but holy hell Mike Haven is da man.
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Old 11-29-2007, 10:13 AM   #868
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Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

FTP has now agreed that I may release the following paragraph from the Consultant's e-mail. In my opinion, this is probably the most important factor in the entire saga, and had we been allowed to know this at a much earlier stage, this thread might have taken a totally different course:

"As you are probably aware, statistical profiling of the player suggested that a computer program was being used to make the playing decisions. What is not known to the public is that a completely separate analysis of physical action times has also been conducted, and that analysis has confirmed that the play was well outside the range of normal human behavior. This provides independent corroboration that an automated process was being used."

Whilst confirming that I could post the above, the Consultant added:

"On judging the balance of probabilities, I believe there is overwhelming evidence that pokergirl z was in direct violation of the site policies. It was found that she was not making decisions for herself, and she later admitted to that fact. The timing data independently verifies that her physical actions were outside the range of normal human behavior."
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Old 11-29-2007, 10:53 AM   #869
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Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

R.I.P. sillysal

FTP seems like it has done a good job in catching a cheat. If only they could improve communication most people would be happy. Lets hope the petition prompts them to do so.
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Old 11-29-2007, 10:57 AM   #870
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Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

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Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it and disabled my innocent bot
f'in jokers.
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Old 11-29-2007, 11:55 AM   #871
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Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

Thanks Mike.

I've been following this from the start and I was seriously skeptical until your last post. I feel much better now. I was considering leaving Tilt in 2008 for Stars, but now I'm less inclined to.

K
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Old 11-29-2007, 12:00 PM   #872
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Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

Definitions of silly on the Web:

* cockamamie: ludicrous, foolish; ..."a silly idea";
* airheaded: lacking seriousness; given to frivolity;
* pathetic: inspiring scornful pity;
* a word used for misbehaving children; "don't be a silly"
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Old 11-29-2007, 01:23 PM   #873
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Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

Quote:

It was found that she was not making decisions for herself, and she later admitted to that fact.

Did I miss something?
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Old 11-29-2007, 01:29 PM   #874
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Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

he's referring to their personal correspondance and evidently some sort of admission of something else being involved in decision-making. Perhaps something that she didn't think technically qualified as a bot but they did or something like that. Just speculation though.

obviously she didn't mention it in this thread and we have no idea what specifically she admitted to them privately.
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Old 11-29-2007, 02:29 PM   #875
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Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

Quote:
he's referring to their personal correspondance and evidently some sort of admission of something else being involved in decision-making. Perhaps something that she didn't think technically qualified as a bot but they did or something like that.
Bob for MicroMod.
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