Wow, it takes FTP 3 weeks to come up with 3 players that have similar stats, which, as presented is in no way proof of botting at all. Then sillysal is expected to mount a defense within hours and damned for the inability to work out a defense 100 times quicker than the prosecution could present a case. Now to me the real damming evidence against FTP is they claim they will distribute sillysal's bankroll to the other participants but no mention of redistributing the rake off all those thousands and thousands of hands.

Yep, really above board actions. < sarcasim intended >

Yeah, im sure FTP isnt basing everything on what is presented - but a lot of people are not keeping an open mind here when they were pretty vocal about her innocence at the start of the thread. All that has really changed is some largely useless info that shows nothing bot related was released and FTP has said "yeah, she is guilty and stuff".

I dunno, im kinda done with this thread - im coming across as defending someone who on the balance of evidence likely is guilty. But ultimately what we know is if a site wants to take your money and tar you as a cheat then there is no recourse you have legally and that ultimately you wont even find out what you are accused of or the evidence that has been used to "convict" you.

Ive no idea if Sal has recieved more evidence than that email and the MH post - but if that is all she has been given then that is a pretty worrying conclusion imo.

Can you [censored] ******s who are complaining about FTP making this decision based only on those stats posted please STFU. Can you people read? Haven said that it was only an excerpt from the evidence they sent him. Also, I'm not sure if this is the case, but FTP probably didn't even send him ALL of the evidence they have. So those stats aren't even close to the full evidence. Stop [censored] bitching for once for wait for his review.

I'm pretty sure that everyone here with a clue understands that you're criticizing the process, not defending the accused. All the people on the "ZOMG she's innocent!" and "ZOMG she's guilty!" bandwagons are being simple. Neither they, you, or I have the information needed to make such judgements.

Also, how the hell did this get dropped into MH's lap. It seems like a ton of hassle for little reward. Props to Mr. Haven for his work on this.

Interesting thread, anymore updates?

I do agree that these poker sites need to disclose some information when situations like this arise. They can't just say "we will not release any information" and close accounts at will b/c it certainly looks like robbery.

yeah i played with pokergirl z before and lost and i didnt get no moeny.

So you got money, then?

Seriously, grammar nitting aside, it's a little too soon for that. FT only just seized the money, I doubt you'd see anything the very next business day even if they do find you are entitled to some. Plus, hopefully they are allowing a little time for any possible appeal or response from pokergirl before they start handing money out.

Ive no idea if anyone has emailed FTP or if they have a rep watching this thread, but ive a question i think might be important:

Assuming the judgement is true, and that Sillsal has been using multiple accounts and running a bot - at what point did this start?

Sal has stated she has been a player on FTP full time for aproximately a year - why wasnt she caught earlier, is this a new thing she has done and if its long term how many people are going to be refunded? If we are talking a year of cheating, why wasnt she caught earlier?

If she has been cheating for one year at high stakes limit, then surely we are talking figures well in excess of 47 grand - will the site fund the difference?

Obviously no info will be released on the investigation and i suspect most of what i ask is unanswerable whether by choice or ability, but i think the follow up to this judgement should be elaborated on by the site if nothing else.

from Mike Haven above...

Guilty or innocent, this is not leaving a good taste in the mouth

FWIW I compared my stats on every street to those given for the player(s) in question, and my numbers are VERY similiar. I play lots of HU on a smaller site at much lower limits. I sure hope they had much better evidence than some similiar stats.

possibly FT dosnt wanna disclose how they catch ppl in order to prevent botters from adapting to the security measures.

Do we have any reason to believe FTP uses any technique other than "similar stats" to determine "bots"?

This is like a major bank having the passcode of "1234" on their vault, getting broken in to - and rather than changing their code and implementing more thorough security measures, simply continuing as-is and stating they cannot divulge how the thieves accessed their vault since it may help future thieves.

No?

that's almost certainly the most likely reason for FTP's secretiveness (the other possibility is general incompetence) but we don't apply such thinking to any other rule breaking in society.

lol, very true. If sillysal is proven to be a bot, they caught her after only 172000 hands.

the fact that she got up consistnely after 5 - 10 bets EVEN AGAINST A FISH, is pretty good evidence she is in fact a bot. also someone mentinoed earlier she only played HU and even if a fish sat 3 handed crazysal would sit out. seems suspicious to me

I guess I'm losing faith in the human race, or maybe I'm just naive... It is sounding more and more like she is guilty. I honestly believed in the beginning she was innocent. I wanted to believe it was all a big mistake, and that she would be getting her money back and everything would be fine. From now on, I am just going to wait until the forum can get as many facts as we can before I pass judgment. Anyway, I just had to vent, that's all.

Online poker rooms face a constant onslaught from criminals. Colluders, credit card thieves, botters, hackers, extortionists, money launderers, spammers, and confidence men. They attack the rooms, they attack the money transfer sites, and they attack the players.

Whatever else we may think about security at FTP and other poker rooms, we shouldn't delude ourselves into thinking they have an easy job. It's a very hard world out there.

Saw this posted in a cheater's bot forum, I wonder if it has anything to do with their new methods -

'Darse Billing (one of the University of Alberta's computer poker research group leads) got employeed by full tilt. dunno if that's going to be good or bad for the game.'

Stellarwind I agree that security at poker sites have a very difficult job. I'm sure they see a lot of stuff behind the scenes that we don't even know about. Kudos to them for doing a good job when they catch a bot.

Given the number of hands involved in the comparison Mike H posted, it seems to me the stats diverge quite a bit. I don't see any evidence of botting there.

Has anyone who's seen the rest of the evidence posted an opinion yet?

Nothing yet as far as I am aware. I think they are trying to resolve this privately now. Would be nice to get an update though.

All these guys saying that due to the current evidence it looks as though sal is guilty are jumping the gun IMO. We have seen a tiny amount of information, how can you judge upon that? I certainly can't, I will wait until more comes to light before I make my judgement.

I am not saying sillysal is guilty, I'm not saying she's innocent. I am just saying FTP has evidence that they are hiding from the public, for security reasons. We obviously won't get to see all of the evidence so how can we (the public) make a fair judgment.

I know you have not made a judgement, but it does seem as though quite a few people already have. I agree we will probably never know, but it is fair to say FT have made mistakes before.....

How can you not be certain? Let's review the facts:

1. Sal came under investigation for having stats similar to a CONVICTED BOT!

2. Further investigation showed Sal's stats were in fact similar to the CONVICTED BOT!

Therefore, Sal must be a bot.

Thankfully, the information released didn't confuse the issue with any of that statistical jargon like standard deviations or what not. That kind of talk bores me to tears.

In an unrelated note, I tried to compare my own stats to Sal's. Our preflop raise from the button was within 1%. I'll stick to Stars.

In over 170k hands they never said anything, what makes you believe they really have some other methods of detection, didn't Crazy Mike tip them? The PLAYERS ARE POLICE-ING THE SITE. So when they get tipped the freeze her and then go investigate, the investigation should have been first, not last.