MOst of us were never posting "OMG she's innocent give her money back." It's just that hte process is [censored], regardless of whether she's innocent or guilty. I don't care what kind of evidence FTP has, tehre's no way they can be 100 percent positive, and to accuse someone and freeze their account for 3 weeks without ever telling them what they're accused of, and for the whole process to be final and without any sort of appeal to a third party or regulatory commission, is [censored]. Personally, I think she is probably guilty of botting, and that she probably deserves to lose the 47k. That doesn't change my opinion of how this has been handled by FTP.

I simply don't think this is true. I can think of many forms of evidence that would not leave room for any reasonable doubt. My guess is that FT's decision here took a long time because they were being careful not to make a false accusation.

I do agree that the time frame is still too long, even given that: I'm sure FT could have elevated the priority of the case and used more manpower to complete the investigation more quickly. That is what they should have done.

Nonetheless, I feel pretty comfortable that they are not carelessly stealing 47K from an innocent player, and I also understand completely why they cannot divulge the details of the evidence.

guilty.

I think a lot of early posts were implying that.

I do care - evidence if the cornerstone of a civilised society

I see nothing wrong here and nobody has come up with another way of doing it. If the account is not frozen once suspicous activity is detected then the funds will simply disappear by the cheater withdrawing

Agreed but this is the same for all sites.

Apart from initially stating it would take a few days I think this has been handled ok. Sillysal was replied to within 24 hours of her emails.

Once a site has detected possible cheating I think the only option is to freeze the account and tell the account holder that an investigation is under way. I see no benefit in telling the account holder what exactly is the problem because until their investigation is complete there is nothing to be gained. It may be that at the end of an investigation they conclude the player has done nothing wrong and they unblock the account.

IMHO FTP just need to do 2 improvements:

1. Give a more realistic initial timescale on how long the investigation is likely to last.
2. Put in place an appeal procedure if the player is deemed guilty.

If it makes you feel any better, I closed my Absolute account after this scandal broke, and I took almost all of my money off of Full Tilt a long time ago because of this kind of crap (I think there is still like $40 on FTP, and if they want to steal it, I won't even bother complaining about it).

So all of that hard work cost AP at least one player.

Stars does.
And we've mentioned many different ways of doing it in this thread.
They include communicating better with the player involved and not blowing them off.
And in situations where they probably were NOT actually waiting for charge-backs they should conduct the investigation more quickly and shouldn't give time-frames that aren't even close to what they intend on doing.

Telling her they are suspicious of her activity and are investigating whether or not she is using a bot is not going to compromise their investigation imo.
Telling her to just be patient and if she really didn't do anthing wrong she will get her money back is not appropriate.
Telling her to stop writing to them or they will just drag out the investigation longer is not appropriate.


Rek - the result of the investigation does not mean that you were right and everyone else was wrong.
FT still handled this pretty badly. And, in fact, I still think are continuing to do so.

OK there is no way I can read all of this right now. Would somebody please fill me in on whats going on here. At first, I really felt sorry for sillysal, I honestly did. But now, I'm hearing that she allegedly used a bot, Is this true? If so, than FTP clearly did the right thing, no? Could Microbob or somebody please give me just some cliffnotes on the last day or so? Thank you very much.

MicroBob, I would agree with you that Stars respond quicker. There will always be an industry leader in terms of customer service and with online poker Stars are tops. I have also stated that one of FTP's failures is not getting the initial timeframe correct. They need to improve this and there needs to be a system of appeal.

What I meant by this statement was that once a player is being investigated the only option is to freeze the account until the investigation is complete.

I know that you and others want the site to tell them exactly why the account is under investigation but what does this really achieve? Until the site actually complete their internal audits there is nothing you can actually do. There will be 2 outcomes; either the player is cleared and the account is unblocked or the account remains frozen. Only once the latter is known is there any point trying to defend yourself.

They replied to all her emails within 24 hours - nothing wrong here as far as I am concerned. And to be honest, if she was clogging up the enquiry with duplicate emails then she should be told that this is not helping in the speed of the investigation.

I honestly don't see that FTP handled it that bad. It could have been better I grant you.

Also I am not saying I was right and everyone else was wrong. Perhaps sillysal is innocent I really don't know but it is looking unlikely. But that really is not the point. As soon as sillysal made the post there was almost an immediate stampede of FTP haters blasting away. And all I could see was that an investigation was under way and a little time and patience was needed.

Keep comparing FTP with Stars customer service is not really the issue. Response times are quicker on Stars. My only issue is whether Stars would have investigated as fully as FTP seem to have done. Or would they have just appeased everyone?

Weeding out cheaters is something all sites need to make their highest priority. FTP are at least trying to make a stand here. As this thread shows it is costing some goodwill and indeed a substantial rake from a prolific player like sillysal.

I know that Stars sets an industry standard and am not expecting FT to live up to it. They don't have to be as good as Stars...just better than they are now.
They just fall WAY short of where they should be professionaly for a multi-million-dollar company where doing such things as making decisions about whether to confiscate someone's $47k is a semi-regular part of the operation.

It's almost like every time one of these situations comes up they get somewhat flustered like they practically are new at it. and that's inexcuseable to me considering that they aren't new at it and they should have enough money to hire enough people to take care of this stuff better.
"Oh...we made a mistake and said some unprofessional things and the delay was way too long. Well, sorry about that. But we're really trying super-duper hard to get this right."

Lets be real here. This is not some mom-and-pop operation with 5 employees who are apologizing for whatever delay is happening with some customer problem.

I do not want the site to tell them everything that is happening. Just SOMETHING in general would be fine.
What it achieves is that communicating directly with the player should be a routine part of the investigation imo.

One of the fundamental requirements for justice is that you are told the charges against you and you are allowed to present a defense, including cross examination of your accuser. Full Tilt does not disclose the charges against you until you are convicted and your funds seized, and then in only the most vague manner. Full Tilt has no provision for the accused to defend himself.

I'm going to suspend posting at this time because my case is being reviewed by an unbiased party.

fulltilt > sillysal...

i think its pretty obvious your guilty, time to give up.lol

FT arranged for this? Or they agreed to let Mike Haven or somebody look into it in more detail for you behind the scenes?
Or this is just something that you are trying to do on your own somehow even with limited info?

Wow that's pretty damning.

cliffnotes why everybody thinks shes guilty / proof? thx

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showth...mike's evidence

Lol at all the ppl with like 10 posts taking sillysal's side.

Cliff Notes:

1) FTP freezes Sillysal's account ($47k)
2) Sillysal makes OP; first 200 or so posts relate to that
3) FTP decide that Sillysal is cheating
4) Sillysal is told she is using some AI program


Basically, there appears to be a growing consensus that Sillysal probably was cheating. There also appears to be a consensus that FTP handled the communication of this very poorly.

People - almost identically to the Beatme thread - are arguing over whether accused cheaters should have a right to defend themselves against the accusation.

Thank you Josem this is what I was looking for.

Josem that is a good summary. I am now just checking this thread for posts by Mike Haven, Sillysal, or Fulltilt. I won't be holding my breath mind you.

RR - I already linked the relevant post by Mike Haven just a few posts above this one.

Wow ... maybe Mr. Gatorade's bot accusations were right after all ...