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Old 11-03-2007, 09:01 PM   #526
Phil153
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Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

Quote:
From what I understand, bots cannot multitable. You know what I'm saying is true.
You've played high limit poker for years and yet you make an obviously absurd statement like this?
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Old 11-03-2007, 09:02 PM   #527
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Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

I hope no heads up players in the future play as well as an accused bot. poker bots must really know how to play huh. wonder who proggrammed them.
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Old 11-03-2007, 09:06 PM   #528
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Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

Dude the fact that you make it seem like you can't play on your account for 4 hours and then make the bot play for another 4 or whatever is stupid.

I seriously think you're either 100% guilty or 100% an idiot. Or both.

LOL bots can't multitable.

I could play on Pokerstars for 5 years, but if I botted for one day I'd expect them to ban my ass and take my money.
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Old 11-03-2007, 09:07 PM   #529
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Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

Quote:
Quote:
From what I understand, bots cannot multitable. You know what I'm saying is true.
You've played high limit poker for years and yet you make an obviously absurd statement like this?
oh i didnt even see that quote from sillysal

ive been pretty active in all these threads and i have absolutely no recollection of anyone ever saying bots can't multitable.

but thinking about it, i can't really recall ever seeing any of the bots multitable.

i guess sillysal is pretty familiar with how they work
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Old 11-03-2007, 09:09 PM   #530
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Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

Quote:

does anyone wanna link to the big beatme1 thread

Here we go...

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...rt=all&vc=1


Something that interests me is the age of the Sillysal 2p2 account - most of these type of things are accounts created on the day of the first post - Sillysal has been here for a long time, user# 818!

There are certain similarities between the two cases for sure - although I don't think we ever got to see stats for beatme1 like we have here. But Gehrig says they play the same so it would seem.

Either the two cases are running the same HU limit bot, or this also calls in to question the validity of the betame1 confiscations too.

SillySal - if you are not one and the same as beatme1 (did you ever play each other?) - it may be a good idea to meet up with her...
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Old 11-03-2007, 09:14 PM   #531
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Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
From what I understand, bots cannot multitable. You know what I'm saying is true.
You've played high limit poker for years and yet you make an obviously absurd statement like this?
oh i didnt even see that quote from sillysal

ive been pretty active in all these threads and i have absolutely no recollection of anyone ever saying bots can't multitable.

but thinking about it, i can't really recall ever seeing any of the bots multitable.

i guess sillysal is pretty familiar with how they work
So what about that pattern Fulltilt? Silly sal=multitable human programmed bot no multitable. Sounds fishy that silly would play herself and at the same time employ the human programed superior bot at another table to play. Wow never seen so many players scared of these human programmed bots, these bots must bluff real well and detect bluffs huh.
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Old 11-03-2007, 09:18 PM   #532
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Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

so obviously guilty
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Old 11-03-2007, 09:35 PM   #533
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Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

Im confused what the real evidence here is to make her "obviously guilty".

I mean given a large enough sample you will always have a few players with the same stats - so you can throw that out if it is unsupported with further details.

So, it comes back to Full Tilt.

Also - as i predicted way back on page 1, it is now clear that Crazy Mike is behind this being brought to the attention of FTP.

Anyway, i guess unlike some of you im waiting for Mike Haven (assuming i havent missed it) to come here and say "yeah, obv guilty" or "well, im no expert, but im not convinced" etc.
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Old 11-03-2007, 09:57 PM   #534
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Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

Crazy Mike was not involved in this investigation. I have asked that Mike Haven contact me directly but he is going to bed for the night. We have forwarded him on what I believe to be conclusive evidence, but I would prefer that he review it and respond directly. Personally I would have preferred a final review tonight, but that doesn't seem like its going to happen. I don't want to comment further on the case, but would prefer a trusted third party. For any legitimate questions contact me through PM.


Ephraim
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Old 11-03-2007, 10:03 PM   #535
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Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

Quote:
Here is an extract from the information FTP sent me.
It's important to realize that this statistical comparison is the tip of the iceberg of what FTP security may have done. They have all of the hand records with complete hole cards and a very large sample size. There are literally thousands of stats that can be computed if you are willing to write a little software to do the analysis. Examples for HU play:

1. Hero raises preflop from the SB/Button, bets and 3-bets the flop, and gets checkraised on the turn. Hero then:

Folds X%
Calls Y%
3-bets Z%

2. Hero defends the BB with suited cards and flops a flush draw. Hero then:

Bets out X%
Checkcalls Y%
Checkraises Z%

This process of creating and comparing new stats can go on-and-on until you get bored (or three weeks pass ). If two players are identical in every aspect of their game then the only reasonable conclusion is that they are the same player. It's not possible for two human beings to play a sophisticated game of poker in such an identical fashion. Indeed it is unlikely that the same player could play 100K hands and then play another 100K hands that looked exactly like the first. People change over time. Only software can be duplicated to produce multiple unchanging copies of itself.

The population of regular high-limit HU LHE players on FTP is very small, perhaps a few dozen at most. Go open up FTP sometime and take a look around. It's not like FTP searched all the people on Earth to find three identical players.

The case of the low-level NL grinders who were acquitted of botting despite identical stats is different in the following ways:

1. The system they were playing was deliberately designed to be a baby system that multiple people could learn to play identically.

2. It was alleged (never publicly confirmed but FTP probably checked) that they each played the blinds in their own personal way.

3. They all admitted to be related to each other. So far Sal has not made any claim that she and the other two players worked together to develop an identical style. In all likelihood the opposite is true. They probably carefully made their accounts look unrelated to hide their botting activity.

Sal is demanding to see evidence that a bot was running on her computer. That may never be forthcoming for the simple reason that the bot may not have been running on her computer. It's quite possible that the AI program ran on a different computer with Sal sitting at the computer providing the interface. That would allow her to handle routine chores like sitting down, posting, and avoiding scary opponents while the AI program did all the actual playing. Given the stakes the bot was playing it would be greedy not to monitor it at all times anyway.

If my hypothesis is correct it doesn't excuse anything. Using an AI program to make your decisions is cheating regardless of who is holding the mouse.
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Old 11-03-2007, 10:14 PM   #536
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Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

Its already been stated by inside security sources that
sites do take SCREENSHOTS.

There could be no basis to determine your using AI intelligence otherwise.


Did Sal ever post the exact screenname?
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Old 11-03-2007, 10:17 PM   #537
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Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

Quote:

If my hypothesis is correct it doesn't excuse anything. Using an AI program to make your decisions is cheating regardless of who is holding the mouse.

Um, no it isn't

As evidenced by nlnut et al - using computer-aided decision making is A-OK on FTP providing a human is at the controls and has the ability to override the bot's "suggestion"

Same goes for Stars regarding certain applications on the "allowed software" list.

Why on earth would a site deem "advisory" class applications a bannable offense?

The danger of poker bots is not that they play correctly - a trained human can do that - it is that they can play unattended 24/7 without tilt and can be replicated at will.

No?
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Old 11-03-2007, 10:29 PM   #538
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Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

Sal seems to be adamant that he isnt a pure poker bot.

I believe him, but somewhere you have to draw the line
on what is acceptable (pokertracker) and what isnt when
it comes to computer aided decisions.

By Sals reaction, he's clearly using alot of his own
judgement when to leave/enter games, and its probably
still alot of work to win $ via whatever method hes
using.

Im almost certain FT would have to have screenshots.
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Old 11-03-2007, 10:29 PM   #539
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Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

As others have said, surely it is not a convincing defence to just say “I am not a bot, because I have tilted / quit good games / don’t have timing tells”. Someone does not have to run bot software on their account 100% of the time; in fact if they were operating a bot some of the time it would be in their interests to have a pattern of play where they are exhibiting non-bot characteristics. This should be pretty obvious.

Also, the change in Sillysal's tone from “please post any data you have on me” to “this data does not prove anything, you need to prove I was running bot software” is strange to say the least.
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Old 11-03-2007, 10:29 PM   #540
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Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

I am one of the 30/60 , 50/100 HU regulars mainly on FT, and the thing that always made me curious about pokergirl z and daurgman is their relatively low VPIP from the button. Most HU regulars have AT LEAST 80 minimum from here, whereas I believe all the bots previous that were busted(bocaloca, bono1945) are all under this.

Raising only 65-75% from the button is definitely missing value preflop, and can be quite the mistake over time.

A few of the bots busted from the past:

Bobaloca: 66 VPIP , 74.77 VPIP from button, 1324 hands
bono1945: 63 VPIP, 74.76 VPIP from button, 1045 hands
Japinthesack: 65.29 VPIP, 75.85 VPIP from button, 3449 hands
FlopbeNice: 67.1 VPIP, 72.55 VPIP from button, 611 hands

It`s just amazing that any HU regular that has played for as long as pokergirl z has would not have recognized such an obvious mistake.


pok z : only 419 hands, 64.69, 75.92 VPIP from button


Look at some of the players like the bryce, gehrig, hoss, antonius, pretty much any regular over 10 20 have VPIPs from the button of over 80, almost all other regulars have VPIP from button over 80.


Pok z also lied earlier about using the grego777 account which has obviously been her other account, always logged on whenever pok z was logged on.

Pok z also talks exactly like beatme did, which is humorous.



Any thoughts on NiHaoMah, cenizo is weird too.
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Old 11-03-2007, 10:37 PM   #541
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Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

A question for the mid/high HU limit players. Are there regulars who play exclusively HU, or is it common for players at these stakes to also play 3-4 handed depending on game selection?

I am thinking back to earlier in the thread when a player mentioned Sillysal would immediately sit out on WPX when a game became 3-handed, even when playing a huge fish. Just wondering whether there is a class of strictly HU players for whom this is common practice or not.
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Old 11-03-2007, 10:40 PM   #542
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Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

Quote:
A question for the mid/high HU limit players. Are there regulars who play exclusively HU, or is it common for players at these stakes to also play 3-4 handed depending on game selection?

I am thinking back to earlier in the thread when a player mentioned Sillysal would immediately sit out on WPX when a game became 3-handed, even when playing a huge fish. Just wondering whether there is a class of strictly HU players for whom this is common practice or not.
Most of the mid/high HU limit players on FT play HU exclusively. Not all but most.
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Old 11-03-2007, 10:47 PM   #543
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Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

ryanski,

bono, flopbenice, bobaloca, lip2lip, daurgman 8 months ago etc all play exactly the same and all play good. they all have the same bot timing tells etc

grego, poker girl z, beatme1 and daurgman in the last few months all play exactly the same (but different from the first group) and all get the same obvious poker-stuff wrong. none of them have ever had bot timing tells that i've observed. this group is pretty much break-even at this point which shows a certain level of competence given the stakes they play.
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Old 11-03-2007, 10:55 PM   #544
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Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

Not to be rude but who are you? Are you a spokesperson of some sort?
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Old 11-03-2007, 10:59 PM   #545
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Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

Quote:
Quote:

If my hypothesis is correct it doesn't excuse anything. Using an AI program to make your decisions is cheating regardless of who is holding the mouse.

Um, no it isn't

As evidenced by nlnut et al - using computer-aided decision making is A-OK on FTP providing a human is at the controls and has the ability to override the bot's "suggestion"

Same goes for Stars regarding certain applications on the "allowed software" list.

Why on earth would a site deem "advisory" class applications a bannable offense?

The danger of poker bots is not that they play correctly - a trained human can do that - it is that they can play unattended 24/7 without tilt and can be replicated at will.

No?
I think when you get to the stage of allowing players to just follow the output of some poker AI and say it's ok so long as a human clicks the buttons, then that will be a sure fire way to kill online poker. It seems strange that in online chess/backgammon it is quite clearly cheating to use an engine to advise you (even if you press the buttons yourself...).

First NU LHE was targeted probably because of the availability of research papers, but I fear that next SNGs will be targeted in a similar way. I previously tried to bring peoples attention to this in this post, but was surprised at the level of apathy and the number of people who seem to think it's fine to use poker AI so long as "you click the buttons yourself".

If poker sites wish to allow realtime game-theoretic advisers for SNGs then I think they should also allow them for HU LHE. What exactly is the difference?

Juk
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Old 11-03-2007, 11:11 PM   #546
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Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

Quote:
ryanski,

bono, flopbenice, bobaloca, lip2lip, daurgman 8 months ago etc all play exactly the same and all play good. they all have the same bot timing tells etc

grego, poker girl z, beatme1 and daurgman in the last few months all play exactly the same (but different from the first group) and all get the same obvious poker-stuff wrong. none of them have ever had bot timing tells that i've observed. this group is pretty much break-even at this point which shows a certain level of competence given the stakes they play.

No arguments about pok z and greggo`s timing tells, barely watched them ever, but the 15 minutes I watched daurgman, guy paused every time it was his turn to act, preflop, postflop, whatever, it was very consistent.

Saw him bust a few times on other occasions as well, never reloading when with a few BBs left, and when completely bust his buyin, just sit there with no chat at all, no reload of any sort, nothing.

NiHaoMah is legit right É . I have no stats on him.
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Old 11-03-2007, 11:13 PM   #547
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Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

how long ago did u watch daurgman

when bobaloca etc were running daurgman was an obvious bot

in the last 3ish months i haven't noticed the bot timing tells but its not like i sweat his every session
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Old 11-03-2007, 11:16 PM   #548
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Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

Quote:
Pokergirl z
Pre-flop played %
65

grego777
Pre-flop played %
66

Daurgman
Pre-flop played %
68
It's very unlikely that these stats in particular came from the same player/bot. If the player's true stat is 65, then after 62K hands they will be within that ~.4 of the 65 95% of the time. It's about a one in ten million event that this player would have a 66 stat. It's virtually impossible for the stat to be 68 over the samples discussed. Of course, this type of analysis assumes things that may not be true such as static game conditions/inability of the bot to adjust. It also assumes that MH or FT didn't round 65.4 to 65 and 65.6 to 66. Even so, I felt it necessary to point out that appearances here maybe deceiving and that it's possible to draw the opposite conclusion from the data then is obvious from just looking at it.
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Old 11-03-2007, 11:16 PM   #549
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Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

Quote:
how long ago did u watch daurgman

when bobaloca etc were running daurgman was an obvious bot

in the last 3ish months i haven't noticed the bot timing tells but its not like i sweat his every session

It wasn`t long ago 1.5 months from today tops, most likely sooner, probably one of it`s last sessions on the site. Memory of the event is not the greatest though.

Probably watched pok z like twice for 5 minutes each, no weird timing tells there though.
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Old 11-03-2007, 11:17 PM   #550
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Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

Quote:
I think when you get to the stage of allowing players to just follow the output of some poker AI and say it's ok so long as a human clicks the buttons, then that will be a sure fire way to kill online poker.

i dont think dave's post is accurate. i think what he posted is the conspiracy theory the zoo agreed upon with those nl bots. but nobody knows the real truth.
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