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Old 11-03-2007, 07:36 PM   #501
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Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

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who are grego777 and daurgman?


is it surprising that people with similar pre-flop stats have similar post-flop stats?

obviously FT alleges that they are accounts that use the same bot.
It was previously speculated that greggo was another account of hers earlier in this thread.
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Old 11-03-2007, 07:37 PM   #502
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Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

i wasn't told anything about daurgman being connected here

but that account was very obviously a bot back when lip2lip and BobaLoca and all the other accounts that are accepted as bots were running. he had all the same characteristics as them.

when all the accounts were killed and daurgman was still standing i was pretty shocked

ive played him recently and he hasn't shown all the characteristics he used to
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Old 11-03-2007, 07:39 PM   #503
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Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

I think the PF%, W$SD% and AF's all don't tell you very much.
I have to think lots of heads-up players are in that range.

The other stuff I'm really not so sure. Would be interesting to get some input from other heads-up players as to how unusual they think it is for the 3 players to have such similar stats.
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Old 11-03-2007, 07:40 PM   #504
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Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

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who are grego777 and daurgman?


is it surprising that people with similar pre-flop stats have similar post-flop stats?
Don't forget this is simply an extract of what I assume is a mountain of information. Obviously FTP isn't simply looking at stats, or else the information in the other FTP thread a couple of months ago about the supposed 1/2 NL FR bots would've come out with the accused guilty. But instead they were said to be innocent.

Again I'm looking forward to Mike's conclusion.
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Old 11-03-2007, 07:41 PM   #505
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Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

If Full Tilt is banning people due to similar poker stats im about ready to withdraw.

I if i go threw poker tracker looking at winning players with large amounts of hands they stats all line up similar and you can find several people with the same thing.

There has to be more good evidence that can actually prove something
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Old 11-03-2007, 07:45 PM   #506
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Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

It would be nice if you could get permission to post more info. Even one or two more pieces of corroborating evidence might help. I think any info that would not give away Fulltilt technical and secuirity systems would be good if they have such info.
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Old 11-03-2007, 07:51 PM   #507
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Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

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If Full Tilt is banning people due to similar poker stats we should all withdraw.
FYP
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Old 11-03-2007, 07:53 PM   #508
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Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

So looking at the stats Mike Haven has posted, sillysal's stats certainly do look similar to the other two players.

What I'd like to know is, how much MORE similar sillysal's stats are to these players, as compared to all other LHE players on FTP. Similarity is certainly not proof when there are millions of accounts on FTP, and where at least one of those accounts will randomly have stats similar to known bots.

If this is FTP's "evidence" then it's statistically very weak.
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Old 11-03-2007, 07:53 PM   #509
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Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

How does having the same stats PROVE I was using illegal software? I'm interested in other high stake winning players stats. Can we post those as well? How does this make me a bot?

Anybody ever see me have weird timing issues? How many of you seen me tilt and run away. I'm kind of known for that. What bot runs from action? LOL.

I want to see the PROOF that they found any type of illegal software running on my computer. That's the kind of proof I'm demanding. Posting my stasts is just not gonna cut the mustard FTP.
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Old 11-03-2007, 07:55 PM   #510
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Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

Quote:
It might be because you use 2 accounts...
grego777 and pokergirl z
-Crazy Mike



I knew I had seen the name grego777 before.
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Old 11-03-2007, 07:57 PM   #511
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Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

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How does having the same stats PROVE I was using illegal software? I'm interested in other high stake winning players stats. Can we post those as well? How does this make me a bot?

Anybody ever see me have weird timing issues? How many of you seen me tilt and run away. I'm kind of known for that. What bot runs from action? LOL.

I want to see the PROOF that they found any type of illegal software running on my computer. That's the kind of proof I'm demanding. Posting my stasts is just not gonna cut the mustard FTP.
Interesting switch in tone. I'm leaning towards more likely than not you were cheating, but how FTP handled/is handling this is still atrocious, because more likely than not is not enough to justify seizing 47 grand.
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Old 11-03-2007, 07:57 PM   #512
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Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

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I think the PF%, W$SD% and AF's all don't tell you very much.
I have to think lots of heads-up players are in that range.

The other stuff I'm really not so sure. Would be interesting to get some input from other heads-up players as to how unusual they think it is for the 3 players to have such similar stats.
Oh boy, I was really hoping FT wasn't ONLY going to give this information.

This is really tough, b/c if you were going to come up with a simple, basic strategy I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that stats of a bunch of different players could mirror one another (even this closely).

With that said, its been quite obvious to us who have played these games for a while that pokergirl z and greggo77 play just about the same as the bots who were previously busted. How much that means or doesn't mean I'm not sure.

I really think it's pretty scary if FT is simply going of the stats of these players without any way of determining how statistically significant those numbers actually are. You can't just say "oh they have identical stats so they must be bots". Of course it makes it more likely but I just can't see it being damning.

Also, 3-4 months ago I thought Daurgman was a bot (and actually made a post about it which I later deleted as most people disagreed). As recent as a month ago his play was much different and not consistent with "botish" play.

Also, to gehrig and anyone else who plays these games...I have to imagine "cenizo" has an almost identical style to these guys. Are we convicting him as well?

I just really hope there's more information that this. Like I said, it's really difficult for anyone to say how statictically significant these numbers are.
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Old 11-03-2007, 08:00 PM   #513
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Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

So you do not deny having multiple accounts?

EDIT: You guys are overlooking the fact that those stats are simply an EXTRACT of what Mike was given. I'm quite confident that their decision was definitely not based on stats alone.
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Old 11-03-2007, 08:02 PM   #514
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Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

In a game like limit, wouldn't better players gravitate towards very similar stats in the long run?

This seems like a huge witch hunt.
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Old 11-03-2007, 08:02 PM   #515
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Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

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So looking at the stats Mike Haven has posted, sillysal's stats certainly do look similar to the other two players.

What I'd like to know is, how much MORE similar sillysal's stats are to these players, as compared to all other LHE players on FTP. Similarity is certainly not proof when there are millions of accounts on FTP, and where at least one of those accounts will randomly have stats similar to known bots.

If this is FTP's "evidence" then it's statistically very weak.
I haven't read the whole thread.

FT has some info that we don't, the complete knowledge of the hole cards. I don't doubt that there are several people with nearly identical stats to mine playing the same limits - but there are going to be differences in the hole cards that are played.

I'd certainly hope that FT isn't going to freeze accounts on stats alone, given that they have access to perfect information that is unavailable to the general public.
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Old 11-03-2007, 08:04 PM   #516
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Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

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Interesting switch in tone. I'm leaning towards more likely than not you were cheating

Yeah, my thoughts too. But I'm still open-minded about this.

Will be interesting to hear from Mike Haven if FT had more to it than just that. I assume they did.

Honestly, it seems like sillysal is perfectly willing to let FT say ANYTHING about the investigation. She has waived her privacy stuff and doesn't mind ANY of the information being out there.
In fact, she is begging for it to be publicized.

So I really don't know why we need Mike Haven in the middle of all this necessarily.
FT can just let everyone in on whatever additional info they choose without having to go through a middle-man.

So even this aspect of the information release is being handled a bit ridiculously imo.
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Old 11-03-2007, 08:09 PM   #517
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Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

MicroBob: The reason for Mike is because, as they said before, they don't want the public knowing how they detect cheaters. So basically by having a middle man they're only letting one person (Mike) know how they detect cheaters with him giving his opinion on the evidence.

And everybody, don't forget that they ended up saying that the 3 or 4 accused players in the giant thread about 1/2 NL FR bots were innocent EVEN THOUGH their stats were extremely similar, and there was much more evidence than what we have been presented with here in this case so far.
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Old 11-03-2007, 08:11 PM   #518
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Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

Seems like you're a cheater, SillySal.

Maybe FTP didn't handle the situation properly, but perhaps we should recognize that it seems they did make the right decision and I think they have a right to be annoyed if an obvious cheater sends them dozens of emails claiming their innocence.
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Old 11-03-2007, 08:12 PM   #519
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Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

cenizo plays the same as all the old bots, never adjusts and gives me all the action i want, which most humans dont (but the old bots always did). he doesnt have obvious timing tells like the old bots.

i don't have any evidence either way beyond that

pokergirl z and grego played the same as each other but don't play like the old bots. there is one other account they play the same as.
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Old 11-03-2007, 08:17 PM   #520
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Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

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MicroBob: The reason for Mike is because, as they said before, they don't want the public knowing how they detect cheaters. So basically by having a middle man they're only letting one person (Mike) know how they detect cheaters with him giving his opinion on the evidence.

And everybody, don't forget that they ended up saying that the 3 or 4 accused players in the giant thread about 1/2 NL FR bots were innocent EVEN THOUGH their stats were extremely similar, and there was much more evidence than what we have been presented with here in this case so far.


yeah, I get that they can give it all to Mike and then Mike can say, "I approved of this message. It all makes sense to me."


But as for the stuff they want to make public....FT should be doing that themselves. Mike shouldn't have to ask FT if he can say this or that...and then ask sillysal if it's okay for him to say this or that.

Sillysaw has already given cart-blanche approval for FT to say ANYTHING about this. She is begging them to.
FT should be able to speak for themselves and could just as easily have posted those stats themselves.

In the end I guess it works out the same. I guess their reluctance to do speak for themselves just annoys me more than anything else.


Would Stars go to Mike Haven and say, "Hey Mike, tell 2+2 we said it was okay to give these stats."
I think Stars would speak for themselves if they were involved in a remotely similar issue.
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Old 11-03-2007, 08:25 PM   #521
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Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

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cenizo plays the same as all the old bots, never adjusts and gives me all the action i want, which most humans dont (but the old bots always did). he doesnt have obvious timing tells like the old bots.

i don't have any evidence either way beyond that

pokergirl z and grego played the same as each other but don't play like the old bots. there is one other account they play the same as.
ok, i guess its safe for me to say that beatme1 is the other account that plays exactly like poker girl z and grego
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Old 11-03-2007, 08:35 PM   #522
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Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

does anyone wanna link to the big beatme1 thread

i bet beatme1 posts like pokergirl z too

what could it all mean oh my god i just dont know
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Old 11-03-2007, 08:36 PM   #523
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Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

Quote:
cenizo plays the same as all the old bots, never adjusts and gives me all the action i want, which most humans dont (but the old bots always did). he doesnt have obvious timing tells like the old bots.

i don't have any evidence either way beyond that

pokergirl z and grego played the same as each other but don't play like the old bots. there is one other account they play the same as.
Oh please gehrig, You know damn well I'm not a bot. So does your pal the Complainer. But I bet you like that I'm not on the site so you can monopolize it. I wouldn't be surprised if you're part of this whole witch hunt.

From what I understand about Bots.. they'll play anybody. Well, Gerhig, you know I don't play you and I dont because there is no money in it. There are a lot of players I won't play for the same reason. Lets see, how many times have you seen me playing mulitple tables? So many times you wouldn't be able to count them. From what I understand, bots cannot multitable. You know what I'm saying is true.

If you believed I was a bot then why haven't you spoke up before now. I've been on FTP for almost 2 years but now all of sudden I'm a bot??. I was a player at Pokeroom as well and there was a whole lot of talk about bots there but did one person accuse of being a bot? No they did not. How many bots win their way into the WSOP 3 years in a row? How many bots are on teampokroom?? HUH????

There are far too many people who have met me or played me to know that I am not a bot. Your're fueling the flames because you don't want me on the site as I'm a winning player and I take food out of your mouth. Plain and simple. But go ahead, you will only discredit yourself by contuining to support out and out lies.

I DEMAND ,AS SHOULD EVERY PERSON WHO HAS AN ACCOUNT AT FTP, TO SEE THE PROOF.

FTP this is not going away. I am not stopping until I'm exonerated.
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Old 11-03-2007, 08:39 PM   #524
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Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

lololol

my favorite part was when u called crazy mike my pal <3
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Old 11-03-2007, 08:52 PM   #525
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Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

SillySal - are you and beatme1 the same person?
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