Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it - Page 20 - Internet Poker

not to mention, its probably in ftp's best interest NOT to confiscate her 47k. if she's a high stakes LHE player shes going to generate a lot more than that in rake in one year.

I might be completely wrong, but I think it wouldn't be quite that high. She's a HU player, and they cap the rake on HU tables at $.50 per pot. So the fact that it's high stakes shouldn't make a difference on rake, especially compared to a 6-max player.

Although I really have no idea how much rake she generates, you're probably right that it's -EV long term to lock her account and "steal" her money (which they said they were planning on using to reimburse those who she has played against.

I'm looking forward to reading Mike Haven's opinion on the evidence that he has had presented to him.

QFT

a.) $47K isn't that much to tilt

b.) limit players even just heads up limit players generate GOOD amounts of rake, way over $47K in a 12 month timespan.

$100 says she was a bot...and I'll lay 2:1

11-03-2007 , 03:41 PM

#477

PoorLawyer

veteran

Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 3,319

Quote:

I think you might overestimate how easy something like a California court hearing on this matter would be.
FT isn't in the U.S. I don't know how possible it is but it doesn't seem terribly realistic.

Hopefully her lawyer may have an idea or two.

the only issue here is the legality of poker. It would be fairly easy to serve FT...as for collecting, it depends on where they have their assets. There are plenty of procedures in place to collect on foreign judgments in most countries.

Maybe FT should move all their assets to N. Korea to become judgment-proof against sillysal

11-03-2007 , 04:35 PM

#478

mbpoker

old hand

Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 1,272

Quote:

If they were a PR firm like Stars, they would have refunded the money and gone out of their way to avoid a situation like this in the first place (including appeasing the cheaters or giving them a warning first so they can hide what they're doing). This whole situation is going to cost them more than 50K in business and they knew that from the start, but stuck to their guns.

Stars just confiscated $1.2M so they don't exactly refund money to cheaters.

However the point that many in this thread made about how the case was handled not whether the final decision was right or wrong (which is not clear yet).

11-03-2007 , 05:54 PM

#479

Greg Miller

journeyman

Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 236

Quote:

As the old saying goes “justice must not only be done, it must be seen to be done”

Good choice of quotes. It nicely sums up the complaint that most people in this thread have with the way FTP conducts business.

11-03-2007 , 05:57 PM

#480

[Phill]

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 52,717

Quote:

Stars just confiscated $1.2M so they don't exactly refund money to cheaters.

I missed that post first time through - Phil53 (or whatever) youre really really ignorant.

11-03-2007 , 05:58 PM

#481

DMoogle

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 7,243

Quote:

Stars just confiscated $1.2M so they don't exactly refund money to cheaters.

Did I miss something? Link please.

11-03-2007 , 06:02 PM

#482

MicroBob

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 61,575

that thread was taken down from the NVG forum due to lawyers request or something. Although Mat Sklansky didn't make it clear WHOSE lawyers.

There is an article in cardplayer about it now I believe although it might not be in the online edition yet.

In short, the guy who won the WCOOP championship for $1.2 million was deemed to be playing more than one account so was stripped of his winnings and everyone was moved up one place.
I'm not even sure if we're allowed to say even that much on 2+2 since they took down a different thread about it.

11-03-2007 , 06:18 PM

#483

El_Hombre_Grande

old hand

Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 1,447

Quote:

I agree. FT can be easily served, and they are doing business in every state, if other states jurisdictional requirments are the same as the 12-15 I am familiar with. If they choose not to defend, they would be defaulted.

The biggest issue is probably whether she is in a state where internet poker is illegal.

I for one would love to see legal action, including a trial. You won't get to just send a terse e-mail and take $47K.

But I'm sure crazy mike would make a good witness. Its not like he's been wrong, repeatedly, and appeared to have ulterior motives at times, right?

11-03-2007 , 06:19 PM

#484

DMoogle

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 7,243

Oh yeah I heard about that, but I was sure I also read that they were distributing the money to all the other players in that tournament. It certainly seems uncharacteristic of PokerStars to simply keep it.

Sorry about going off-topic.

11-03-2007 , 06:26 PM

#485

rakemeplz

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 12,648

Quote:

Even if pokergirl z cheated, which i dont believe...

FT's rep getting rapêd all over the place < 47k $.

[x] Unfreeze the mobniez.

Doesn't this just speak to their integrity? If they were a PR firm like Stars, they would have refunded the money and gone out of their way to avoid a situation like this in the first place (including appeasing the cheaters or giving them a warning first so they can hide what they're doing). This whole situation is going to cost them more than 50K in business and they knew that from the start, but stuck to their guns.

The customer service side of things could be handled a lot better - they definitely need to say what they're investigating. Other companies do it and it's unacceptable that they stonewall completely.

Wow I'm shocked and dismayed someone responded positively to kamikazes absolutely ******ed comments.

We don't have any facts, and fulltilt has conducted a presumably extensive 3 week investigation, and concluded she was guilty of botting.

Yup! We should just ask full tilt to give her money back to a possible cheater and let the victims feel the burn, just because we dont like how they explain things related to their investigation to someone they think used a bot to steal money from them. Sorry for the runon sentence.

11-03-2007 , 06:30 PM

#486

MicroBob

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 61,575

Quote:

in that regard that is exactly what is happening here.

Stars redistributed the money that the WCOOP player had confiscated.
FT says they are going to redistribute the $47k that they confiscated from sillysal to the affected players.

11-03-2007 , 06:32 PM

#487

DMoogle

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 7,243

Oooooooooooooohhhhhhhh, whoops, I misread mbpoker's post:

Quote:

Stars just confiscated $1.2M so they don't exactly refund money to cheaters.

I read it as they don't refund money to those who were cheated. That's why I was wondering "WTF".

11-03-2007 , 06:39 PM

#488

runout_mick

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 5,171

Quote:

FT says they are going to redistribute the $47k that they confiscated from sillysal to the affected players.

Did I miss this? I didn't notice this.

11-03-2007 , 06:43 PM

#489

MicroBob

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 61,575

It's in the letter they sent her.

"
Your Full Tilt Poker account will remain permanently closed and the
remaining funds will be used to reimburse the victims of your use of
automated artificial intelligence software.

You are no longer welcome to play at Full Tilt Poker.

Regards,

Jeremy E
Security and Fraud
Full Tilt Poker "

11-03-2007 , 06:52 PM

#490

Josem

human chemical weapon

Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 18,189

Morning all,

I just wanted to clarify that those of us who are unhappy with FTP's handling of this matter obviously support their efforts to crack down on cheating. Cheating obviously hurts us all, and we obviously think it should be stopped.

However, at the same time, we think that even accused cheaters deserve a right to defend themselves against the allegations. If our society lets murderers see the evidence against them (despite the possible theoretical advantage to other would-be murderers from seeing how they were caught) then surely the same can apply to online poker players.

As the case of TeddyFBI's mum demonstrated, online poker operators are not infallible. They make mistakes - and $47k makes a big difference to Sillysal's life, so let's remember that.

P.S. Gehrig suggests, in the BBV thread on this, that the evidence against Sillysal is pretty damning. That may be the case - but it wouldn't change my view one bit. It's not possible to only have a fair process for innocent people, since someone's guilt needs to determined as a result of the fair process, not prior to.

On that note, if Gehrig - as a mere dataminer/observer - was able to figure out the evidence (as he suggests) then surely there is no secret issue involved here.

11-03-2007 , 07:15 PM

#491

gehrig

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 8,241

Quote:

On that note, if Gehrig - as a mere dataminer/observer - was able to figure out the evidence (as he suggests) then surely there is no secret issue involved here.

i didnt elaborate on what i know and i'm not going to

11-03-2007 , 07:19 PM

#492

Josem

human chemical weapon

Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 18,189

Quote:

i didnt elaborate on what i know and i'm not going to

Why?

11-03-2007 , 07:20 PM

#493

MicroBob

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 61,575

I don't think he will elaborate on why he won't elaborate.
I also don't think he will elaborate on why he won't elaborate about why he won't elaborate.

11-03-2007 , 07:22 PM

#494

Josem

human chemical weapon

Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 18,189

Quote:

I don't think he will elaborate on why he won't elaborate.
I also don't think he will elaborate on why he won't elaborate about why he won't elaborate.

If Gehrig won't elaborate because of an arrangement with FTP, then he only needs to say that.

11-03-2007 , 07:22 PM

#495

MasterLJ

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 13,684

Quote:

I don't think he will elaborate on why he won't elaborate.
I also don't think he will elaborate on why he won't elaborate about why he won't elaborate.

Nth level elaboration.

ELABROLEVELED!!!!!!

11-03-2007 , 07:24 PM

#496

___1___

old hand

Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,592

Quote:

If Gehrig won't elaborate because of an arrangement with FTP, then he only needs to say that.

More than likely it's b/c Crazy Mike gave him information under the condition it stay private.

11-03-2007 , 07:27 PM

#497

R*R

I wish I was Einstein

Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 12,753

Quote:

Uh Silly Sal. hello Silly Sal. Send us some evidence please. Should be on your computer.

I will post hand histories , I will contact the Kahnawake Gaming Commision. I have contacted 2 Lawyers, and I have made calls to involve the media. I have contacted the 4 moderators that were on staff at the time I received the letter from FTP.

I will do everything in my power and I will post everything I do to keep you all in the loop.

No HH yet. Could you take a minute to explain why?

11-03-2007 , 07:29 PM

#498

Mike Haven

Moderotor of Moderots

Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 14,546

Here is an extract from the information FTP sent me. (FTP and sillysal have given me permission to post it.)

FTP consider it to be very important to their case against sillysal:

Pokergirl z
172,075 hands
Flop 59%
Turn 43%
River 36%

grego777
85,403 hands
Flop 60%
Turn 44%
River 36%

Daurgman
62,148 hands
Flop 61%
Turn 45%
River 36%

*

Pokergirl z
Pre-flop %
Fold 20
Call 21
Check 3
Bet 55

grego777
Pre-flop %
Fold 21
Call 22
Check 3
Bet 54

Daurgman
Pre-flop %
Fold 21
Call 22
Check 2
Bet 55

*

Pokergirl z
Flop %
Fold 8
Call 27
Check 20
Bet 45

grego777
Flop %
Fold 8
Call 27
Check 20
Bet 45

Daurgman
Flop %
Fold 7
Call 24
Check 22
Bet 47

*

Pokergirl z
Turn %
Fold 7
Call 27
Check 38
Bet 28

grego777
Turn %
Fold 7
Call 26
Check 38
Bet 29

Daurgman
Turn %
Fold 8
Call 25
Check 30
Bet 37

*

Pokergirl z
River %
Fold 11
Call 24
Check 32
Bet 33

grego777
River %
Fold 11
Call 23
Check 31
Bet 34

Daurgman
River %
Fold 8
Call 26
Check 31
Bet 34

*

Pokergirl z
Pre-flop played %
65

grego777
Pre-flop played %
66

Daurgman
Pre-flop played %
68

*

Pokergirl z
Went to S/D & won %
48

grego777
Went to S/D & won %
47

Daurgman
Went to S/D & won %
47

*

Pokergirl z
Pre-flop aggression
2.6/4.0

grego777
Pre-flop aggression
2.5/4.0

Daurgman
Pre-flop aggression
2.5/4.0

*

Pokergirl z
Post-flop aggression
1.4/4.0

grego777
Post-flop aggression
1.5/4.0

Daurgman
Post-flop aggression
1.6/4.0