I agree 100%, them ignoring the situation helps no one

Its worth noting, because he probably won't, and not everyone itt knows who he is.

Clamper is a "plankton" who volunteered hundreds of his hours on the full tilt forums trading section when it existed years ago to help keep Full Tilt players financially secure (a task full tilt isnt willing to undertake even for the piles of money they make)

I'm not mad, it just adds an element of risk. I play because it's fun and I make money. If I have to factor in a possibility that I'll win money, but have money sucked out of my bank account, that makes playing there either less +EV, or -EV. I don't play -EV games.

Do you use credit cards because of the expedience or always use cash? Do you have a bank account? What happens if money were taken from you bank account because Victoria Secret took money from you? Have you ever shopped at victoria secret? NO. But somehow they took your money. Would you want to find out how/why they got to your account? Stop being stupid and move on clown

Wow i just cannot believe this thread. lolfulltilt. Removing all funds from fulltilt and putting on stars. Cannot wait to get off this **** ******* ***** site.

Lol.

Is there cliffs anywhere in this thread? I dont wanna read thru 658 posts, but id like to know if im at risk.

Cliffs: Check your bank statement

Cliffs: If you want to avoid a possible future headache, close the bank account you have associated with FTP and open a new one.

For some more detailed information, see the very first post ITT by The Palimax.

sorry for the hijack earlier but yea i am just saying ftp is slow at responding anything these days to any issues. i mean its not like we are asking hard questions. u guys are a multi billion dollar industry and u guys cant even answer some simple questions...

I still have not received an email from Fulltilt warning me to check my bank statements. The ONLY reason I know about it is because I was reading something unrelated on 2+2 and someone said something about fulltilt being a dirty site like UB, so I went looking.

Why hasn't fulltilt sent emails to all players alerting them to this issue?

I know you can do it. You just sent one yesterday teaching me how to "float" in NL.

Hi all,


While I may not be posting in the thread on a regular basis, I am continually monitoring it, and ensuring that all of the necessary parties here at FTP are aware of all of your feedback. I will continue to do this until we fully resolve the issue once and for all.

There still seems to be concern around the sharing of information. When we process transactions we must interact with third parties and banks. The data is fully encrypted. Our team is working with the bank to get to the bottom of exactly how the affected transactions were then charged by PMI and who exactly has been impacted. FTP aren’t benefiting in any way from these transactions and is working to confirm that it won’t happen again.

We have been advised by the bank that refunds have been issued. We need your help to determine if this is not happening. If you have not received a refund please email our cashier department at: cashier@fulltiltpoker.com

We will continue to push hard for a timely resolution. I will also continue to monitor the issue closely, and post again when I have an update.

Sean

The statement I put in bold and underlined in your statment is MEANINGLESS Sean, I don't think anyone is arguing that FT is benefitting in any way from this... It's totally beside the point however, the main point of it all is this:

FT's customers HAVE been impacted by one of three things:

1) A breach of the security of their private banking information.
2) A deliberate attempt to STEAL from FT customers by a 3rd party.
3) An accidental (very unlikely given the facts itt) set of charges.

In ANY of the three cases FT is being at the least negligent and at worst complicit in not informing ALL FT customers so that they can check their bank accounts for these charges. Sorry Sean, these "It's not our fault" BS statements just don't cut it.

Clearly this is not happening, so if your scenario is true, then the bank is not being honest.

Nobody, and I repeat NOBODY received a refund automatically. They had to notice the fraudulent charges, contact their bank (with varying degrees of success), track down PMI, and repeatedly call PMI until they got through to dispute the charges. Only then was any money refunded.

Still unanswered:

1) What is the name of the bank you are dealing with, who "inadvertently" send FTP player's information to PMI?

2) The full name, and address, phone numbers and names associated with PMI so that we may pursue this in a court of law.

3) Since it is agreed upon by all that PMI took FTP players money illegally and without authorization, then why has FTP not issued a warning to their players?


Baited Breath,

NoFi

This should be easy to find. And it should be included in the email sent to all fulltilt players.

If it's not fulltilt's fault, wouldn't they want to distance themselves from it by saying - Look THEY did it. Here is their contact info.

And even if it's not their "fault" as someone mentioned it's negligence on their part.

If they care about their reputation in the poker world, they should TELL THEIR PLAYERS WHAT'S GOING ON.
That's just step 1 - and common sense.

There are 10s of thousands of players playing right now. How many of them know about this?

Does 60 Minutes need to do yet another story?
R..I.P. online poker.

If you really wanted to know if there are more people out there who havent been reimbursed wouldnt you send a mass email to all your customers making them aware of this error and advising them to check their bank records?

Dont make the same mistake Ultimatebet did by trying to cover up or put a spin on a bad situation....be up front and honest and the poker community will accept that much better.

I'm on it....hopefully i can get a response sometime this week...who knows with them....

Sean,

While the info that you have provided so far is less than adequate, have you done anything proactively to notify anyone that doesn't frequent this forum, or even this thread?

It appears that there has been no update on FTP forums from you, or anywhere else that I can find. In fact, your last post on your own forum was too little too late re your BLT fiasco.

To expect to keep this info into one small thread on 2+2 isn't cutting it. While I don't expect you to take out full page ads in the NY Times etc., and you are ignoring requests for a mass email, the least you can do is create other posts in other forums, looking for player info, to determine the real extent of how widespread this problem really is. Based on the info you have already provided, its naive to believe that its affected only the handful of players that are on the spreadsheet collected here, and even that was done by a non-FTP employee.

Kindly respond.

Obviously verifiable. Refunds have been reported in this thread.

Notice he's not saying some refunds, or all refunds. He's saying refunds, period.

This is a step in the right direction. Tiny, but a step. The leap will be to alert all customers. I can foresee the answer to these next questions, but I want to hear it from FTPSean.

What's the likelihood of a official widespread alert in the near future?

If it's unlikely, why?

As it stands now, the only way we can be sure that FT is being proactive is to await posts across the internet announcing an unexpected credit to their bank account from PMI.

I sense that FT is not complicit in any fraud, and that they are gnashing their brains to find a way out of this morass. Working within a corporate structure is not all hobnobbing and golf. It's stressfull in the best of times. For that, FTPSean, you have my sympathy.

But that only goes so far. These are not the best of times. FT is implicated in some serious stuff. It is festering and will not go away without proper treatment. Ubi pus, ibi evacua.

Comparing this to the twin UP/AP debacles, it does not make those demons look like choir boys, but I can guess some of their imps are shopping for sheet music.

And just imagine what the scenery will look like if the suits in Atlantic City/Las Vegas/Indian Lands/Washington decide to trumpet this as an 'I told you so'.

I implore you. Do these now.

Mass email.
Post on your forum.
Pop-up while logging in.

Put on a pot of coffee, roll up your sleeves, and order pizza. It's going to be a long night.

if they are able to identify the bank/processor (which they claim they have) and time period they used them for processing, they should contact those players directly. A mass email to FT's entire player base would probably scare off a lot of fish. Even a recreational player who was not affected by this may be concerned about using echecks to deposit again.

You are right, but this is a moot point anyway, no company in its right mind would ever do this

+1

Quiting UB... ups FTP.

As the former voice of alarm, I'd like to take a second and try to be the voice of reason.

The current version of the story as being relayed by FTP plus what we know from dealing with PMI ourselves is as follows:

• In July 2010, a batch of transactions is sent for processing.
• All of those transactions are processed - but possibly not without incident, see below in red.
• Some number of those transactions are "put into the wrong bucket" at [Big Bank].
• Six months later [Big Bank] resubmits these transactions for unknown reasons.
• PMI, dutifully processes what [Big Bank] sends them, sending money to locations unknown - but not to Full Tilt Poker.
• A month later, PMI acts on the instructions of [Big Bank] again - or [Big Bank] submitted recurring payments.
• A month later, PMI does so again, but changes its descriptor.
• Full Tilt Poker begins to actively look at the issue.

If you're willing to assume that now Full Tilt Poker is operating above board and as transparently as their legal team will allow their customer-facing representatives to act, the problem now lies at [Big Bank] - which I suspect Full Tilt Poker will be unlikely to ever, ever, turn over to us.

So, now Full Tilt Poker is "guilty" of not taking a big enough action, and definitely of not acting sooner. They should be letting people know more, and they should have taken us seriously before this went on for months' and I've communicated this to Full Tilt's representatives in public and in private.

...but don't expect much transparency from FTP with regard to how their legal department works with their bank (Big Bank). At best, we're going to get a vague message later that says, "We've received information from our bank, and are processing refunds for impacted players."

A note about the July 2010 patches: I had two $200 deposits in July of 2010 (and two $200 withdraws). One of these deposits was accompanied a few days later by the following email:

[888 number removed to keep valid processors off this thread.]

This means that they submitted my $200 to [Big Bank], who coordinates their merchant transactions, and two things happened:

• There was a hiccup in processing "temporary issue," "delay."
• Then they were processed with the wrong descriptor, "Western Clear."

There is speculation earlier in this thread that "Western Clear" has some tie to PMI - but I think it's much more likely that "Western Clear" was simply an invalid descriptor for valid FTP transactions -- and people impacted by PMI were possibly tied to this bad batch.

Among our current questions/actions/next-steps are:

• When will [Big Bank] release full information back to FTP on what transactions were sent "PMI" for processing? [Remember, PMI is just a descriptor on the transaction, not a company name.]
• FTP needs to confirm that passive refunds have occurred, other than taking the bank's word for it. We have no indication of this - at all.
• What will they do once they have the list -- or if they never get the list -- since posting on 2+2 isn't exactly letting people know.

FTP needs to compensate those impacted in some meaningful way. I'm not asking for money, but we at least all deserve something when this is over. If I got my apology letter and explanation by snail-mail with a keychain enclosed, I'd at least feel as though someone took it serious enough to spend a stamp on it.

There is a separate issue regarding PMI, but only once we understand [Big Bank] and their role in the February and March re-submittals.

FTP processes thousands of transactions a day. A small (but meaningful!) percentage of us are impacted. If they can't find out exactly who was impacted, they need to notify as large of a group as MIGHT have been impacted.

Not saying that they shouldn't just notify everyone with a July 2010 deposit, or every July 2010 deposit that I hypothesize about above -- because that's probably the right thing to do -- but they're trying to avoid widespread panic. Right or wrong, your call, but I'm sure they're trying to avoid that at all costs.

Notify people who might be impacted. This has been going on for nearly 80 days. Yes, people will panic. Yes, you'll lose business. Yes, it's the right thing to do.

Your bank screwed up and double, triple, and quadruple charged us. You can't sit on this and wait while your bank to stonewalls your lawyers...