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Old 04-11-2011, 06:20 PM   #501
The Palimax
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Re: FTP's Rogue Payment Processor PMI is back again! Double-Charged? Check your statements!

Emailing FTP repeatedly may cause pressure on them internally to act. The worst thing that can happen is they send you a canned response.
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Old 04-11-2011, 06:23 PM   #502
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Re: FTP's Rogue Payment Processor PMI is back again! Double-Charged? Check your statements!

Quote:
Originally Posted by vaNq View Post
Alright, I guess victims will just have to wait and see (and obviously take measures to get their money back if they've been hit by "PMI"). I'm under the impression that we'll hear from a 2p2 FT rep again, but I guess I haven't been hit by this and may be falsely optimistic.
I imagine a very small percentage of people were impacted.

The only real questions at this point are:
  1. What will FTP do to make it up to people that were affected by their negligence in handling our data, and
  2. What will FTP do to ensure that this doesn't happen again, and finally
  3. Will FTP be aggressive in working to "punish" or aid in helping bring "PMI" to justice.
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Old 04-11-2011, 06:53 PM   #503
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Re: FTP's Rogue Payment Processor PMI is back again! Double-Charged? Check your statements!

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Palimax View Post
Emailing FTP repeatedly may cause pressure on them internally to act. The worst thing that can happen is they send you a canned response.
I would say do both: Email FTP and post here, so we can add you to the ever-growing list of scammed players. It doesn't have to be one or the other.
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Old 04-11-2011, 06:56 PM   #504
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Re: FTP's Rogue Payment Processor PMI is back again! Double-Charged? Check your statements!

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Palimax View Post
I imagine a very small percentage of people were impacted.

The only real questions at this point are:
  1. What will FTP do to make it up to people that were affected by their negligence in handling our data, and
  2. What will FTP do to ensure that this doesn't happen again, and finally
  3. Will FTP be aggressive in working to "punish" or aid in helping bring "PMI" to justice.
agree on your points, i am NEVER playing on ftp again until i see a any of these addressed
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Old 04-11-2011, 06:57 PM   #505
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Re: FTP's Rogue Payment Processor PMI is back again! Double-Charged? Check your statements!

Not to derail the thread but I just wanted to pop back in and say that I owed vaNq an apology for our earlier somewhat heated exchange and I did indeed PM him with said apology, I still feel that I'm right but I shouldn't have taken it out on him.
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Old 04-11-2011, 06:58 PM   #506
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Re: FTP's Rogue Payment Processor PMI is back again! Double-Charged? Check your statements!

also has anyone that deposited via echeck during last 6 months not seen PMI charges in their acct? is this a legit separate forum thread to ask question?
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Old 04-11-2011, 06:59 PM   #507
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Re: FTP's Rogue Payment Processor PMI is back again! Double-Charged? Check your statements!

Why the hell are people still asking about depositing at FTP? Don't even do it. Forget about rakeback and bring your business to PokerStars. Its incredible people are continuing to support this company by playing there.
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Old 04-11-2011, 07:04 PM   #508
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Re: FTP's Rogue Payment Processor PMI is back again! Double-Charged? Check your statements!

Yeah I mean you guys are definitely making sense, it just seems like victims are seeing this thread and their immediate thought is "I'll e-mail FT support about this, that oughta help," not realizing that they're going to get the same e-mail everyone else gets. It probably is still having some impact that I initially neglected (e.g. internal pressure that palimax noted) though, but clearly this thread is helping people figure out how to get their $ back etc.
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Old 04-11-2011, 07:39 PM   #509
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Re: FTP's Rogue Payment Processor PMI is back again! Double-Charged? Check your statements!

Quote:
Originally Posted by cfortiz View Post
also has anyone that deposited via echeck during last 6 months not seen PMI charges in their acct? is this a legit separate forum thread to ask question?
I made five echeck deposits from June to December last year, and several since. Each was debited from my bank within three days.

There are no PMI or similar charges....yet.
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Old 04-11-2011, 07:45 PM   #510
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Re: FTP's Rogue Payment Processor PMI is back again! Double-Charged? Check your statements!

----Updated the list of impacted players to here-----

If you've been impacted, please post, including the number of times hit, dollar amount taken, if it matches deposits you've ever made, and if you recieved a refund (either by chargeback or by calling PMI)

----Posting the list of players and these values (where known) in my update later today----
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Old 04-11-2011, 08:03 PM   #511
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Re: FTP's Rogue Payment Processor PMI is back again! Double-Charged? Check your statements!

i have been. I was on the first list. 100 dollars in Jan and Feb. Closed my account after the Feb transaction. Did match withdrawl from Tilt. Got money from bank, not PMI
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Old 04-11-2011, 08:10 PM   #512
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Re: FTP's Rogue Payment Processor PMI is back again! Double-Charged? Check your statements!

Quote:
Originally Posted by poker viceroy View Post
i have been. I was on the first list. 100 dollars in Jan and Feb. Closed my account after the Feb transaction. Did match withdrawl from Tilt. Got money from bank, not PMI
Updated, thank you.

Code:
   poker viceroy   2*100   Yes   Bank   Closed account after Feb
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Old 04-11-2011, 08:40 PM   #513
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Re: FTP's Rogue Payment Processor PMI is back again! Double-Charged? Check your statements!

was hit 3 times $100 (jan, feb, mar) - deposit matched an ftp deposit i have done several times. got refund from bank, never called PMI
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Old 04-11-2011, 08:52 PM   #514
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Re: FTP's Rogue Payment Processor PMI is back again! Double-Charged? Check your statements!

yeah i pmed doug and sean like 2 weeks ago. They didnt respond.
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Old 04-11-2011, 11:40 PM   #515
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Re: FTP's Rogue Payment Processor PMI is back again! Double-Charged? Check your statements!

Back to the front pages. THIS SHOULD BE STICKIED!!!
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Old 04-12-2011, 01:34 AM   #516
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Re: FTP's Rogue Payment Processor PMI is back again! Double-Charged? Check your statements!

This is a consolidated update of all pertinent data across several threads as of 4/11/2011 at 10:33pm Arizona time.

Starting at the end January, a company identifying itself as PMI 8888758035 began making withdraws from poker-players who had played on Full Tilt Poker. The amounts withdrawn matched deposit amounts that had already cleared through other payment processors. These withdraws were at first seen as oversights -- but it appears as though a FTP payment processor, partner of payment processor or plain old scam artists working on old deposit information is at work.



Despite the fact that FTP promises not to share your banking details with anyone, this is simply untrue. They rely on an army of 3rd-party payment processors; some of which are obviously not above-board.


Numerous victims of “PMI” emailed Full Tilt Poker, and the canned response was always the same:
Quote:
Thank you for contacting us.

We can confirm that Full Tilt Poker did not initiate or authorize the processing of this transaction. For further details on this charge, please contact the processor in question PMI 8888758035

As this charge did not originate from Full Tilt Poker, we also recommend contacting your financial institution should you wish to pursue the matter further.

We apologize for the inconvenience this has caused.

Thank you for your patience. If there's anything else we can do for you, please feel free to email us.

Regards,

Terese
Cashier
Full Tilt Poker
FTP's response was that they did not initiate the charge and that they would not take any action, despite this company being a known (previously used) payment processor.

At the end of February, PMI 8888758035 did it again. At this point anyone silly enough to not have closed their bank account (myself included) had another ACH withdraw taken from them matching their initial amount. In 2/3rds of transactions where the victims reported the amount stolen, amounts matched FTP deposit amounts from Fall of 2010. Further, other victims reported that their unauthorized ACH transactions matched sizes similar to their FTP deposits. Micro-players had small transactions, where others were taken for $200, $300, and even $500 a month.

Because of the nature of ACH transactions, many people -- myself included -- were left in the cold, unable to reverse their transactions, and left at the mercy of "PMI"

It appears that at the end of March, they did it again. They've changed the name on their ACH transaction and gotten a new account and now PMI SALE is making withdraws. This new name and account went through and hit all of their old marks again -- many of whom, it seems, were FTP players.

I understand I shouldn't have been so foolish as to not have a separate "high risk" bank account, but like many, poker is a recreational activity, not my primary source of income.

CHECK YOUR ACCOUNTS FOR UNAUTHORIZED TRANSACTIONS FROM:
PMI SALE
PMI 8888758035


On 4/5 Full Tilt Poker posted the following through FTPSean:
Quote:
Hi,

Sorry for the delay in posting.

I can confirm that Full Tilt has never contracted with, or used a third party processor called PMI.

We never initiated, nor authorized, the processing of any PMI related transactions. We have attempted to contact the PMI +1-888 number to get more information for our legal team, to vigorously defend these allegations and investigate this matter further.

So far, we've been unsuccessful in determining the source of how these transactions were wrongfully processed. We recommend that you contact your bank and dispute all transactions related to PMI 8888758035. As stated, they were never authorized nor processed by any of Full Tilt’s processors.

If we find out any further information related to PMI 8888758035, we will post it in this thread.

Sean
FTPSean has not posted publicly since 4/5.

FTPSean sent me the following on 4/6 by PM.
Quote:
So I have just heard back from the guys investigating this issue, and they said thanks for getting back to us.

They said that things were coming along well, and we are currently talking with the processing bank in conjunction with our legal team.

They also advised that there should be an update shortly.

Thanks again.

Sean
FTPSean has not posted since.

Because of the number of matching transactions and the fact that there are victims who had accounts specially and only for Full Tilt Poker transactions, there is little doubt that one of the following scenarios is in play:
  1. Full Tilt Poker used “PMI” as a transaction processor.
  2. Full Tilt Poker used a transaction processor that then used or sub-contracted to “PMI.”
  3. A legitimate Full Tilt Poker transaction processor had a breach of data.

If you have one of these transactions:
  1. Call your bank immediately, dispute the charges and report fraud.
  2. Call “PMI” at 8888758035.
    1. Keep calling until they answer.
    2. They will ask for your name, ask you to confirm the last four of your checking account, and then tell you that, amazingly, your account is already being processed for a refund.
  3. After reporting the fraud, please let us know the following:
    1. The number of times you were charged, and for what amount.
    2. If your unauthorized withdraw was for the same amount as a FTP transaction (especially one from Summer/Fall of 2010).
    3. If you have been refunded by your bank, or by calling PMI.
  4. Consider closing your bank account.

It is impossible to tell the exact business name of PMI. “PMI” is just the descriptor they put on their ACH transactions. The thread at http://800notes.com/Phone.aspx/1-888-875-8035 contains the following information. It is UNCONFIRMED and wrapped in spoil tags. Please take this data with a grain of salt.
Spoiler:

Below is a picture linking to a spreadsheet I’m keeping at Google Docs. The picture will be updated regularly, as the spreadsheet of victims is updated.





Other Reading:

A similar thread at Pocket Fives:
http://www.pocketfives.com/f10017/fu...es-pmi-617959/
The old thread in NVG before the close:https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/29...ts-ftp-969245/

Last edited by The Palimax; 04-12-2011 at 01:40 AM.
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Old 04-12-2011, 01:41 AM   #517
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Re: FTP's Rogue Payment Processor PMI is back again! Double-Charged? Check your statements!

I have teeth, and I'm not letting go of this just yet.

Edit: PM'd a moderator to ask that my previous post get updated into the first post....

Last edited by The Palimax; 04-12-2011 at 01:57 AM.
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Old 04-12-2011, 01:52 AM   #518
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Re: FTP's Rogue Payment Processor PMI is back again! Double-Charged? Check your statements!

good work, this is greatly appreciated.
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Old 04-12-2011, 02:47 AM   #519
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Re: FTP's Rogue Payment Processor PMI is back again! Double-Charged? Check your statements!

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Palimax View Post
I have teeth, and I'm not letting go of this just yet.
I too don't surrender easily.

Also identified on 800notes as:
National Merchant Center, Irvine, CA
National Payment Provider, Ohio
Western Clear DES

and on 2+2 as:
National Payment Provider, Indiana

I haven't located National Payment Provider in either Indiana or Ohio, but a company by that name does exist in the same building as National Merchant Center in Irvine, and a (former?) officer of NMC is currently president of NPP.

I haven't located Western Clear DES.

As yet, I have not been able to corroborate any further connection between the above names companies and PMI.

Still looking.
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Old 04-12-2011, 03:27 AM   #520
Omaha Chris
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Re: FTP's Rogue Payment Processor PMI is back again! Double-Charged? Check your statements!

In case anyone's interested, an update on two FT deposits, from two separate banks (me Chase, my girlfriend US Bank), last Thursday:

I am relieved to say that as of today (Monday) they are both in a PENDING state. Sad to say, no freeroll (j/k).

The charges show as follows:

Me (Chase):
Pending 2206910 $40.00

Girlfriend (US Bank):
Web Authorized $600.00 (pending)

So at least the *depositing* issue looks to have gone smoothly!

Is this what the victims saw for the debit description upon initial deposit?

Last edited by Mike Haven; 04-12-2011 at 09:25 AM.
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Old 04-12-2011, 03:30 AM   #521
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Re: FTP's Rogue Payment Processor PMI is back again! Double-Charged? Check your statements!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clamper13 View Post
I too don't surrender easily.

Also identified on 800notes as:
National Merchant Center, Irvine, CA
National Payment Provider, Ohio
Western Clear DES
both of the first two are the names of merchant account providers, not the name of the actual company charging the accounts.
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Old 04-12-2011, 03:51 AM   #522
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Re: FTP's Rogue Payment Processor PMI is back again! Double-Charged? Check your statements!

Every person who ever played on FT owes Palimax a HUGE debt of gratitude for his yeoman's work on this issue, without someone like him collecting and organizing the data on this issue people still wouldn't be informed of the problem. The real shame in all of this is that Palimax has to be the one to try and get the information out to people so they can protect themselves... SHAME on FT for not getting on top of this and informing/protecting their customers. The poker community needs more like Palimax.
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Old 04-12-2011, 04:26 AM   #523
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Thumbs up Re: FTP's Rogue Payment Processor PMI is back again! Double-Charged? Check your statements!

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Palimax View Post
This is a consolidated update of all pertinent data across several threads as of 4/11/2011 at 10:33pm Arizona time.

Starting at the end January, a company identifying itself as PMI 8888758035 began making withdraws from poker-players who had played on Full Tilt Poker. The amounts withdrawn matched deposit amounts that had already cleared through other payment processors. These withdraws were at first seen as oversights -- but it appears as though a FTP payment processor, partner of payment processor or plain old scam artists working on old deposit information is at work.



Despite the fact that FTP promises not to share your banking details with anyone, this is simply untrue. They rely on an army of 3rd-party payment processors; some of which are obviously not above-board.


Numerous victims of “PMI” emailed Full Tilt Poker, and the canned response was always the same:
FTP's response was that they did not initiate the charge and that they would not take any action, despite this company being a known (previously used) payment processor.

At the end of February, PMI 8888758035 did it again. At this point anyone silly enough to not have closed their bank account (myself included) had another ACH withdraw taken from them matching their initial amount. In 2/3rds of transactions where the victims reported the amount stolen, amounts matched FTP deposit amounts from Fall of 2010. Further, other victims reported that their unauthorized ACH transactions matched sizes similar to their FTP deposits. Micro-players had small transactions, where others were taken for $200, $300, and even $500 a month.

Because of the nature of ACH transactions, many people -- myself included -- were left in the cold, unable to reverse their transactions, and left at the mercy of "PMI"

It appears that at the end of March, they did it again. They've changed the name on their ACH transaction and gotten a new account and now PMI SALE is making withdraws. This new name and account went through and hit all of their old marks again -- many of whom, it seems, were FTP players.

I understand I shouldn't have been so foolish as to not have a separate "high risk" bank account, but like many, poker is a recreational activity, not my primary source of income.

CHECK YOUR ACCOUNTS FOR UNAUTHORIZED TRANSACTIONS FROM:
PMI SALE
PMI 8888758035


On 4/5 Full Tilt Poker posted the following through FTPSean:
FTPSean has not posted publicly since 4/5.

FTPSean sent me the following on 4/6 by PM.
FTPSean has not posted since.

Because of the number of matching transactions and the fact that there are victims who had accounts specially and only for Full Tilt Poker transactions, there is little doubt that one of the following scenarios is in play:
  1. Full Tilt Poker used “PMI” as a transaction processor.
  2. Full Tilt Poker used a transaction processor that then used or sub-contracted to “PMI.”
  3. A legitimate Full Tilt Poker transaction processor had a breach of data.

If you have one of these transactions:
  1. Call your bank immediately, dispute the charges and report fraud.
  2. Call “PMI” at 8888758035.
    1. Keep calling until they answer.
    2. They will ask for your name, ask you to confirm the last four of your checking account, and then tell you that, amazingly, your account is already being processed for a refund.
  3. After reporting the fraud, please let us know the following:
    1. The number of times you were charged, and for what amount.
    2. If your unauthorized withdraw was for the same amount as a FTP transaction (especially one from Summer/Fall of 2010).
    3. If you have been refunded by your bank, or by calling PMI.
  4. Consider closing your bank account.

It is impossible to tell the exact business name of PMI. “PMI” is just the descriptor they put on their ACH transactions. The thread at http://800notes.com/Phone.aspx/1-888-875-8035 contains the following information. It is UNCONFIRMED and wrapped in spoil tags. Please take this data with a grain of salt.
Spoiler:

Below is a picture linking to a spreadsheet I’m keeping at Google Docs. The picture will be updated regularly, as the spreadsheet of victims is updated.





Other Reading:

A similar thread at Pocket Fives:
http://www.pocketfives.com/f10017/fu...es-pmi-617959/
The old thread in NVG before the close:https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/29...ts-ftp-969245/
Hi Palimax,
Just wanted you (if you want) to update your spreadsheet w/ the 3*50 I got returned from PMI into my checking acct. (I was one of the earlier ones, I know you've been extremely busy keeping the fight going). If you go back through my earlier replies, I go through what happened in my particular case.
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Old 04-12-2011, 04:29 AM   #524
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Re: FTP's Rogue Payment Processor PMI is back again! Double-Charged? Check your statements!

Quote:
Originally Posted by spitbubbles View Post
Hi Palimax,
Just wanted you (if you want) to update your spreadsheet w/ the 3*50 I got returned from PMI into my checking acct. (I was one of the earlier ones, I know you've been extremely busy keeping the fight going). If you go back through my earlier replies, I go through what happened in my particular case.
Its best if you PM him. Its tough going through that many posts, even with search.

Also, is it returned because of your bank or is it because PMI returned it. Some banks are successful in reversing ACH payments.
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Old 04-12-2011, 04:35 AM   #525
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Re: FTP's Rogue Payment Processor PMI is back again! Double-Charged? Check your statements!

Just to play devil's advocate: this company may not easily be able to tell the difference between the regular transactions and the "accidental" ones unless it is brought to their attention. Especially if they deal with a lot of transactions.

So the money going back only to those who "squeak the wheel" doesn't necessarily mean that they're the great Satan and are deliberately trying to hold onto the rest.

After all, they ARE giving back the money, when asked. If they were truly crooks and this is a smash-and-grab, why would they give ANYBODY'S money back?
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