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Old 04-01-2011, 06:38 PM   #1
The Palimax
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Exclamation FTP's Rogue Payment Processor PMI is back again! Double-Charged? Check your statements! NOW!

Please see the thread in NVG for more information, but report back here!

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/29...8035-a-969245/

Starting at the end January, a company identifying itself as PMI 8888758035 began making withdraws from poker-players who had played on Full Tilt Poker. The amounts withdrawn matched deposit amounts that had already cleared through other payment processors. These withdraws were at first seen as oversights -- a FTP payment processor working on old information, and a number of those impacted reported getting calls back after leaving messages with the 888 number and getting refunds. [That number just rings today...]

Despite the fact that FTP promises not to share your banking details with anyone, this is simply untrue. They rely on an army of 3rd-party payment processors; some of which are obviously not above-board.

FTP's response was that they did not initiate the charge and that they would not take any action, despite this company being a known (previously used) payment processor.

At the end of February, PMI 8888758035 did it again. At this point anyone silly enough to not have closed their bank account (myself included) had another ACH withdraw taken from them matching their initial amount. These amounts matched FTP deposit amounts from Fall of 2010.

Because of the nature of ACH transactions, many people -- myself included -- were left in the cold, unable to reverse their transactions. They money is gone.

It appears that yesterday, they did it again. They've changed their name and gotten a new account and now PMI SALE is making withdraws. This new name and account went through and hit all of their old marks again -- many of whom, it seems, were FTP players.

I'm now faced with closing the account. I understand I shouldn't have been so foolish as to not have a separate "high risk" bank account, but like many, poker is a recreational activity, not my primary source of income.

CHECK YOUR ACCOUNTS FOR UNAUTHORIZED TRANSACTIONS FROM:

PMI SALE
PMI 8888758035
A search of these forums will show many, many people asking the same question.

  1. If you have one of these transactions, call your bank immediately.
  2. If you have one of these transactions, report here.
  3. If the dollar figure matches any FTP-related transactions, especially from the Fall-2010 time period, please report here.
  4. If you have one of these transactions, consider closing your bank account. "PMI" has changed their name once already.

*******************************************
*******************************************

Edit/MH:

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Palimax View Post
This is a consolidated update of all pertinent data across several threads as of 4/11/2011 at 10:33pm Arizona time.

Starting at the end January, a company identifying itself as PMI 8888758035 began making withdraws from poker-players who had played on Full Tilt Poker. The amounts withdrawn matched deposit amounts that had already cleared through other payment processors. These withdraws were at first seen as oversights -- but it appears as though a FTP payment processor, partner of payment processor or plain old scam artists working on old deposit information is at work.



Despite the fact that FTP promises not to share your banking details with anyone, this is simply untrue. They rely on an army of 3rd-party payment processors; some of which are obviously not above-board.


Numerous victims of “PMI” emailed Full Tilt Poker, and the canned response was always the same:
FTP's response was that they did not initiate the charge and that they would not take any action, despite this company being a known (previously used) payment processor.

At the end of February, PMI 8888758035 did it again. At this point anyone silly enough to not have closed their bank account (myself included) had another ACH withdraw taken from them matching their initial amount. In 2/3rds of transactions where the victims reported the amount stolen, amounts matched FTP deposit amounts from Fall of 2010. Further, other victims reported that their unauthorized ACH transactions matched sizes similar to their FTP deposits. Micro-players had small transactions, where others were taken for $200, $300, and even $500 a month.

Because of the nature of ACH transactions, many people -- myself included -- were left in the cold, unable to reverse their transactions, and left at the mercy of "PMI"

It appears that at the end of March, they did it again. They've changed the name on their ACH transaction and gotten a new account and now PMI SALE is making withdraws. This new name and account went through and hit all of their old marks again -- many of whom, it seems, were FTP players.

I understand I shouldn't have been so foolish as to not have a separate "high risk" bank account, but like many, poker is a recreational activity, not my primary source of income.

CHECK YOUR ACCOUNTS FOR UNAUTHORIZED TRANSACTIONS FROM:
PMI SALE
PMI 8888758035


On 4/5 Full Tilt Poker posted the following through FTPSean:
FTPSean has not posted publicly since 4/5.

FTPSean sent me the following on 4/6 by PM.
FTPSean has not posted since.

Because of the number of matching transactions and the fact that there are victims who had accounts specially and only for Full Tilt Poker transactions, there is little doubt that one of the following scenarios is in play:
  1. Full Tilt Poker used “PMI” as a transaction processor.
  2. Full Tilt Poker used a transaction processor that then used or sub-contracted to “PMI.”
  3. A legitimate Full Tilt Poker transaction processor had a breach of data.

If you have one of these transactions:
  1. Call your bank immediately, dispute the charges and report fraud.
  2. Call “PMI” at 8888758035.
    1. Keep calling until they answer.
    2. They will ask for your name, ask you to confirm the last four of your checking account, and then tell you that, amazingly, your account is already being processed for a refund.
  3. After reporting the fraud, please let us know the following:
    1. The number of times you were charged, and for what amount.
    2. If your unauthorized withdraw was for the same amount as a FTP transaction (especially one from Summer/Fall of 2010).
    3. If you have been refunded by your bank, or by calling PMI.
  4. Consider closing your bank account.

It is impossible to tell the exact business name of PMI. “PMI” is just the descriptor they put on their ACH transactions. The thread at http://800notes.com/Phone.aspx/1-888-875-8035 contains the following information. It is UNCONFIRMED and wrapped in spoil tags. Please take this data with a grain of salt.
Spoiler:

Below is a picture linking to a spreadsheet I’m keeping at Google Docs. The picture will be updated regularly, as the spreadsheet of victims is updated.





Other Reading:

A similar thread at Pocket Fives:
http://www.pocketfives.com/f10017/fu...es-pmi-617959/
The old thread in NVG before the close:https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/29...ts-ftp-969245/

Last edited by Mike Haven; 04-12-2011 at 08:27 AM.
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Old 04-01-2011, 06:49 PM   #2
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Re: FTP's Rogue Payment Processor PMI is back again! Double-Charged? Check your statements!

Additional related threads:
https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/28...eposit-986051/

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/28...harges-974159/

A similar thread at Pocket Fives.
http://www.pocketfives.com/f10017/fu...es-pmi-617959/

It has been discussed and ignored in the FTPSean answers thread, and in the general deposit/withdraw/echeck threads.
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Old 04-01-2011, 06:50 PM   #3
archie1st
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Re: FTP's Rogue Payment Processor PMI is back again! Double-Charged? Check your statements!

Probably been said a zillion times but its downright pathetic for Full Tilt not to honour these payments the first time and let people know what is going on and what necessary steps to do to make sure it doesnt happen again.

Ultimately Full Tilt aswell as the grinders will suffer because people will just stop depositing on their site if this continues.
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Old 04-01-2011, 07:02 PM   #4
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Re: FTP's Rogue Payment Processor PMI is back again! Double-Charged? Check your statements!

I just called the number also and it just rings and rings. Can you not dispute these transactions with your bank?
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Old 04-01-2011, 07:05 PM   #5
The Palimax
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Re: FTP's Rogue Payment Processor PMI is back again! Double-Charged? Check your statements!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Online Veteran View Post
I just called the number also and it just rings and rings. Can you not dispute these transactions with your bank?
You can. Your success rate may vary. ACH isn't as forgiving for fraud, depending on your bank.
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Old 04-01-2011, 07:20 PM   #6
Go Get It
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Re: FTP's Rogue Payment Processor PMI is back again! Double-Charged? Check your statements!

Assuming this is true, FTP really needs to at least respond if not take action here.
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Old 04-01-2011, 07:55 PM   #7
The Palimax
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Re: FTP's Rogue Payment Processor PMI is back again! Double-Charged? Check your statements!

Here's a list of 28 other users from the other threads who reported PMI taking their money, NOT as the result of a legitimate transaction, all of them FTP customers:

1p0kerboy
85sooootd
anemoney
barbwire
Chicago99
danxxx1
eJah&Omaha
jhn7537
kingsoraces
KoT_6ereMoT
kyleLP
lMaKeUfAmOuS
makeutap247
Mike D
mikeinyonkers
peny87
pkractnY2K9
poker viceroy
ronjeremy
SabaAba
slutboyjimmy
spitbubbles
Stardog75
Striker991
unemployed101
vicmil
Villian1
work_lol


....although I think one (or more) of them might have been shill accounts, since they joined, posted "No worries, got my money back!" and never re-posted. [I do confess that sounds rather conspiracy-theory oriented though.]
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Old 04-02-2011, 02:51 AM   #8
Mike D
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Re: FTP's Rogue Payment Processor PMI is back again! Double-Charged? Check your statements!

Thanks for putting this together, Palimax. This has not gotten nearly enough attention given the widespread nature of the scam and FTP's total hand-washing.
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Old 04-02-2011, 03:30 AM   #9
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Re: FTP's Rogue Payment Processor PMI is back again! Double-Charged? Check your statements!

FTPDoug/Sean/whoever, you really need to come here and deal with this now
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Old 04-02-2011, 04:15 AM   #10
William Murderface
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Re: FTP's Rogue Payment Processor PMI is back again! Double-Charged? Check your statements!

A payment processor repeatedly just taking money out of peoples' accounts? Is that what's happening here?

How is the FBI not involved in this?
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Old 04-02-2011, 04:31 AM   #11
RosieTheGreat
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Re: FTP's Rogue Payment Processor PMI is back again! Double-Charged? Check your statements!

probably because of the unique nature of the clientèle they are ripping off (US poker player), who happen to be operating in a gray area of the law.

Regardless they should be, im sure if enough people complain to their banks about these fraudulent charges the FBI will become more and more interested.
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Old 04-02-2011, 07:54 AM   #12
work_lol
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Re: FTP's Rogue Payment Processor PMI is back again! Double-Charged? Check your statements!

If you guys never authorized these transactions, you have 60 days from the posting date to get your money back. As long as you tell the bank these are unauthorized, they MUST recredit you. I had no issues claiming that my debit from pmi was unauthorized and got my money back. You just need to sign a form saying this was unauthorized. any bank that says no to recrediting you, ask them about reg e
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Old 04-02-2011, 08:28 AM   #13
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Re: FTP's Rogue Payment Processor PMI is back again! Double-Charged? Check your statements!

I wonder if it makes sense just to change bank accounts now, before the possibility of being hit with such charge/s.

If it's happening Again, what's to prevent this from happening again in the future. Such as 6 months from now, 1 year from now, 2 years from now, etc. As long as a dishonest entity has your banking information, it is never safe imo.

What's the easiest way to ask your bank to close your old checking account and open a new one, without sounding conspicuous (i.e. not mentioning online poker). I'm guessing you could say that you lost your check book, but then they might just put a stop payment on all the checks that you "lost".
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Old 04-02-2011, 08:55 AM   #14
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Re: FTP's Rogue Payment Processor PMI is back again! Double-Charged? Check your statements!

Quote:
Originally Posted by RosieTheGreat View Post
FTPDoug/Sean/whoever, you really need to come here and deal with this now
+1

I have accepted that I cannot change some of the newer things that FTP has implemented over the course of the last year, have come to terms with them and still continue to play on the site.

This however, seems pretty scary and I would like to know what FTP is going to do to make sure this cannot just keep happening and that our money and player information is safe in their hands.

Not any crazy rant here, just an honest question which deserves an honest answer.
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Old 04-02-2011, 09:09 AM   #15
1p0kerboy
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Re: FTP's Rogue Payment Processor PMI is back again! Double-Charged? Check your statements!

I received my money back after jumping through several hoops back in January.

Will check my bank account again when I get home. Hopefully they didn't pick my pocket a second time.
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Old 04-02-2011, 01:31 PM   #16
pkractnY2K9
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Re: FTP's Rogue Payment Processor PMI is back again! Double-Charged? Check your statements!

Yeah, I'm on that list for PMI hitting my checking account. I'm lucky, however, that the amount they've taken TWICE was only $12. I micro deposit online to play in MTT's. I feel bad for those who are getting double banged (or more) for amounts much larger than mine. I've gone over my history of outstanding deposits with a fine tooth comb, and the $12 x 2 doesn't match up. They definitely took this money for the wrong reasons.
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Old 04-02-2011, 01:48 PM   #17
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Re: FTP's Rogue Payment Processor PMI is back again! Double-Charged? Check your statements!

Quote:
Originally Posted by All-inMcLovin View Post
I wonder if it makes sense just to change bank accounts now, before the possibility of being hit with such charge/s.

If it's happening Again, what's to prevent this from happening again in the future. Such as 6 months from now, 1 year from now, 2 years from now, etc. As long as a dishonest entity has your banking information, it is never safe imo.

What's the easiest way to ask your bank to close your old checking account and open a new one, without sounding conspicuous (i.e. not mentioning online poker). I'm guessing you could say that you lost your check book, but then they might just put a stop payment on all the checks that you "lost".
Regarding your banking information, when you said "it is never safe imo", I think you answer your own question.

Just tell them you believe your personal information and account number has been compromised, and you'd like to make a new account to be safe. I don't think there'd be a need to say anything about online poker.

ETA: Forgot to mention I cross-posted a link to this in Poker Legislation.

Last edited by TeflonDawg; 04-02-2011 at 02:13 PM.
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Old 04-02-2011, 02:28 PM   #18
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Re: FTP's Rogue Payment Processor PMI is back again! Double-Charged? Check your statements!

I'm glad you guys posted this otherwise I wouldn't have noticed this in my bank account...it seems that PMI withdrew 3 times ($10 each) from my account at the end of the month for January, February, and March. I was able to contact by bank and file a claim for an unauthorized transaction. They said they don't know how this happening, but they would let me know once one of their investigators goes through my claim...
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Old 04-02-2011, 02:48 PM   #19
Steve D
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Re: FTP's Rogue Payment Processor PMI is back again! Double-Charged? Check your statements!

I was hit for $300 each month (Jan thru Mar) for a total of $900. User name is seeu2theriver on FTP
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Old 04-02-2011, 02:52 PM   #20
Steve D
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Re: FTP's Rogue Payment Processor PMI is back again! Double-Charged? Check your statements!

and yes the $300 taken out each month (Jan thru Feb) matches a Fall 2010 deposit I made onto FTP
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Old 04-02-2011, 03:37 PM   #21
dimzrok
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Re: FTP's Rogue Payment Processor PMI is back again! Double-Charged? Check your statements!

This happened to me 3 times and I knew it was FT but It was only $45 so I didnt want to go through the hassle. So yeah, put me on that list.

dimzrok @ full tilt

Last edited by Mike Haven; 04-03-2011 at 03:51 PM.
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Old 04-02-2011, 03:43 PM   #22
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Re: FTP's Rogue Payment Processor PMI is back again! Double-Charged? Check your statements!

This was seriously the last ****ing straw.
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Old 04-02-2011, 04:40 PM   #23
The Palimax
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Re: FTP's Rogue Payment Processor PMI is back again! Double-Charged? Check your statements!

So, increase the list to at least 30 players (myself, 27 above, two more who found this thread) now robbed by "PMI".

My new block-ACH paperwork from my bank asks for the 10-digit company ID, which they no doubt have, but they're requiring that I provide it to them to block. I have little faith in this, as PMI will likely change their name again for as long as they can keep grabbing cash.
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Old 04-02-2011, 05:02 PM   #24
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Re: FTP's Rogue Payment Processor PMI is back again! Double-Charged? Check your statements!

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Palimax View Post
So, increase the list to at least 30 players (myself, 27 above, two more who found this thread) now robbed by "PMI".

My new block-ACH paperwork from my bank asks for the 10-digit company ID, which they no doubt have, but they're requiring that I provide it to them to block. I have little faith in this, as PMI will likely change their name again for as long as they can keep grabbing cash.

the bank should not ask you for the 10 digit id, they can easily get the id from their system and block all debits from this PMI. It's true that PMI can change their name to debit again, but once you return a debit as unauthorized, their bank is suppose to make sure they do not debit you again without authorization.
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Old 04-02-2011, 05:12 PM   #25
The Palimax
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Re: FTP's Rogue Payment Processor PMI is back again! Double-Charged? Check your statements!

Quote:
Originally Posted by work_lol View Post
the bank should not ask you for the 10 digit id, they can easily get the id from their system and block all debits from this PMI. It's true that PMI can change their name to debit again, but once you return a debit as unauthorized, their bank is suppose to make sure they do not debit you again without authorization.
I'm sure someone in the thread will come up with the number. In the meantime, they're blocked by name/dollar amount.
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