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Old 02-14-2019, 04:48 PM   #14476
DivineGlory
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Re: Ex-Official Winning Poker Network (ACR, BCP, True) Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by Bdywax View Post
Winning_TD, when are you guys going to get serious about addressing the bot issue on your site? I mean Iím sure they make you a lot of $, but your lack of focus on it is horrible.
^^^
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Old 02-14-2019, 05:04 PM   #14477
pg_780
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Re: Ex-Official Winning Poker Network (ACR, BCP, True) Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by GlutenFreeroll View Post
its been like this since they changed them in NOVEMBER

ive called at least 20x and posted here a few times, no one cares
4 more buy ins lost since I made this post yesterday. 2 of them returned, waiting on other 2. This is just atrocious. I feel like the only one dumb enough to play these outside me anymore are bots. This software is embarrassing, PLEASE ADDRESS THIS
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Old 02-14-2019, 05:53 PM   #14478
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Re: Ex-Official Winning Poker Network (ACR, BCP, True) Discussion Thread

Is there a breakdown anywhere of earnings if you hit general?
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Old 02-14-2019, 06:28 PM   #14479
JustMarty
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Re: Ex-Official Winning Poker Network (ACR, BCP, True) Discussion Thread

@ Winning_TD

Any thoughts to changing the Stud 8 tourney on high stakes Wednesday? I don't recall seeing it ever run. Maybe if you changed the semi-nightly tournament that runs at 6 pacific to a $22-$33 buy in with a $1,200 or $1,500 guarantee on Wednesdays?

PS., I like the changed ante-structure in the cash games.
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Old 02-14-2019, 07:55 PM   #14480
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Re: Ex-Official Winning Poker Network (ACR, BCP, True) Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by Taang21 View Post
So what am I to use this ticket for since I am already regged for the OSS Main? I mean **** no other tournaments are $540, everything is $530 so I can't even use it on a high roller.
I think theres a step 6 or something to wsop sattys thats 540 u can use it, but ya sucks that over the next year there will prob be only a handful of days you can actually put the ticket to use before it expires
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Old 02-14-2019, 10:00 PM   #14481
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Re: Ex-Official Winning Poker Network (ACR, BCP, True) Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by gwai lo View Post
Hi Winning_TD,

I am a regular at mid/highstakes PLO cash games on WPN. Is it possible you are able to escalate or have the security team look into bot accounts? Some of the other regs have compiled data and found compelling evidence that several accounts are the same bots from the old bot ring on Pokerstars from a few years back. They have tried numerous times to contact support and get this resolved, without any luck.

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/1...e-wpn-1636789/

Here is the thread. The more recent posts have the information I am talking about.

It would be greatly appreciated if you're able to help us with this matter.

Thanks
+1

Please take a look at this data and forward it to your security team. Having played millions of hands of PLO, it's quite obvious when you stumble across one of these bots. Their style is very unique, especially if you play them heads up. I'm glad someone is compiling the data and (pretty conclusively) proving that: 1) these accounts are all bots, 2) they are the EXACT same bot with the same stats, and 3) that this is the same bot that plagued pokerstars and continues to run on other networks.

For the past 1-2 years, I've put up with them because I've always felt they're still somewhat beatable, and they only put one bot at each table. Recently, as PLOwned pointed out in the referenced thread, the bot ring has started placing 2-4 bot accounts per table. While they were already crossing the line (cheating), I've really had enough of it.

The past few days I've often found myself in a 4 handed game with 3 bots. I do not know (nor can I prove) that they are colluding or sharing cards, but I've had some suspicious spots where I opened CO, got 3 bet from button and then either the SB or BB cold 4 bets. I did go all-in with AAxx on one of those hands and ran into 2 somewhat legit hands, so it really didn't prove anything. But still it is alarming. I would be surprised if they weren't colluding, or more likely they're just sharing cards to help enable their ultra-aggressive float/3 barrel strategy.

Really hope this issue can get addressed by WPN. I understand that these bots start games and keep them going, which is part of the reason I've always put up with them. However, now that they're sitting multiple bots at the same table, something needs to be done.
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Old 02-15-2019, 01:01 AM   #14482
Taang21
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Re: Ex-Official Winning Poker Network (ACR, BCP, True) Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by mcc3504 View Post
I think theres a step 6 or something to wsop sattys thats 540 u can use it, but ya sucks that over the next year there will prob be only a handful of days you can actually put the ticket to use before it expires
Yeah that was literally the only tournament I could find for it. Guess I'll play that unless I need to fire a 2nd bullet in the OSS Main
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Old 02-15-2019, 02:12 PM   #14483
WateryBoil
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Re: Ex-Official Winning Poker Network (ACR, BCP, True) Discussion Thread

Bump for WPN bot ring cheating network.


Anything to say? How can this go for years with security giving 0 ****s?
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Old 02-15-2019, 02:59 PM   #14484
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Re: Ex-Official Winning Poker Network (ACR, BCP, True) Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by WateryBoil View Post
Bump for WPN bot ring cheating network.


Anything to say? How can this go for years with security giving 0 ****s?
I think the more pertinent question is why do all of these players that complain constantly about the bots still play on the network??
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Old 02-15-2019, 03:26 PM   #14485
RosaParks1
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Re: Ex-Official Winning Poker Network (ACR, BCP, True) Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by moss84 View Post
I think the more pertinent question is why do all of these players that complain constantly about the bots still play on the network??
Yes we are the problem thank you /thread
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Old 02-15-2019, 04:55 PM   #14486
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Re: Ex-Official Winning Poker Network (ACR, BCP, True) Discussion Thread

Hey all, recently decided to cash out from global and come back to ACR. I played for maybe 3 hours last night and my only problem is the tournament pop ups that come up on every table at once. I went into settings and turn off the only option that seemed related to this. The pop ups continued, am I missing something?

Thanks
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Old 02-15-2019, 05:21 PM   #14487
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Re: Ex-Official Winning Poker Network (ACR, BCP, True) Discussion Thread

Anyone elseís time bank not working in MOSS tournaments? Cost me a stack the other night.
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Old 02-15-2019, 08:03 PM   #14488
Taang21
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Re: Ex-Official Winning Poker Network (ACR, BCP, True) Discussion Thread

Any reason the MOSS ME this Sunday says 15 min levels in the description, but the structure info has 10 minute blinds?
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Old 02-16-2019, 12:05 PM   #14489
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Re: Ex-Official Winning Poker Network (ACR, BCP, True) Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by RosaParks1 View Post
Yes we are the problem thank you /thread
I keep playing PLO with the bots because I am profitable against them - since they are bots - their play is consistent and easy to play against - because I know what they are doing.

They play so predictable - that is what a competitive poker player wants.

To the point - when the poster says we are the problem.
He is kinda right, (i know he might not think so - and is being sarcastic - and will flame for typing this)

If no one played on the site because of bots - the site would be financial encouraged to eliminate them - but when you/people keep playing on the site and pay rake, they have no reason to stop it.

Businesses only hear dollars signs - and when they are making profit - they are not encouraged to change.

Sad but true....
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Old 02-16-2019, 01:07 PM   #14490
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Re: Ex-Official Winning Poker Network (ACR, BCP, True) Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by Austin Idol View Post
I keep playing PLO with the bots because I am profitable against them - since they are bots - their play is consistent and easy to play against - because I know what they are doing.

They play so predictable - that is what a competitive poker player wants.
I don't play PLO so I can't speak to the exploitability of the bots in those games. I do know from firsthand experience that NLHE cash games bots from the micro to mid-stakes can be adjusted to how you're playing against them and can start to take a more balanced and less exploitable approach against you which makes playing against them less profitable, if at all after rake. While some of them are initially pretty exploitable for a solid poker player, very few of which play below the mid-stakes, they still cause significant damage to the poker ecosystem by continuously taking a ton of money from the weaker players with their ability to put in massive amounts of volume without tilting or losing focus.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Austin Idol View Post
To the point - when the poster says we are the problem.
He is kinda right, (i know he might not think so - and is being sarcastic - and will flame for typing this)

If no one played on the site because of bots - the site would be financial encouraged to eliminate them - but when you/people keep playing on the site and pay rake, they have no reason to stop it.

Businesses only hear dollars signs - and when they are making profit - they are not encouraged to change.

Sad but true....
I completely agree.

Last edited by MCAChiTown; 02-16-2019 at 01:19 PM.
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Old 02-16-2019, 01:35 PM   #14491
RosaParks1
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Re: Ex-Official Winning Poker Network (ACR, BCP, True) Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Austin Idol View Post
I keep playing PLO with the bots because I am profitable against them - since they are bots - their play is consistent and easy to play against - because I know what they are doing.

They play so predictable - that is what a competitive poker player wants.

To the point - when the poster says we are the problem.
He is kinda right, (i know he might not think so - and is being sarcastic - and will flame for typing this)

If no one played on the site because of bots - the site would be financial encouraged to eliminate them - but when you/people keep playing on the site and pay rake, they have no reason to stop it.

Businesses only hear dollars signs - and when they are making profit - they are not encouraged to change.

Sad but true....
Playing against bots is not profitable. It is possible to be protected by variance for quite some time, and I understand that knowing that a program is playing optimally allows you to make inferences and decisions you never could playing against a human with more random patterns, but a good bot is going to continue to make adjustments based on your statistics and in the long run that's bad business.

I think there are three sets of players on ACR :

1 ) Players making a profit - these players are aware of some shady business at the tables, but it is hard to turn away from profit.

2 ) Amateurs who are going to lose their dollars no matter what, they may get frustrated losing to certain ppl but will likely just continue depositing no matter what.

3 ) Players cheating whether thru botting or simple collusion.

None of the above groups is going to boycott a site, and most of group 2 is made up of American players who don't really have much better options. They aren't on ACR because they have a choice, they are on ACR because they allow them to continue doing what the government has really done an excellent job stopping them from doing. I would never flame you because all your points are right, but asking the people who are NOT the problem to fix the market is a heavy ask, and people very rarely are willing to make changes in their life that benefit them if those changes have any initial perceived cost. Add to that that you're asking humans to do it, and woof you've got problems.

Winning TD actually does yeoman's work in this thread to help people with what he can, and has gotten responses on issues for me a few times already, but I don't think solving integrity issues within gameplay is something that is within his power. These problems are not unique to ACR, Stars/FT/AP etc all had issues with cheating and bots, and we did not have to boycott to get things done. Our problem here is that the site knows that a boycott is not feasible nor is it organizable, and that they are profiting passively from the issue. What we need is someone accountable within the organization at a higher level, and what we have seen in the past is that the site operates without that personnel. The best course of action is simply to report the issues here, so that at least people have the option to review and choose for themselves.

"Sad but true" is just a perfect phrase for the whole situation, and it does not look to be changing anytime soon neither from security removing these players from the site nor with the US changing their stance on gambool. We are not and never will be the problem. But there are laws stating that we are, and we will it seems remain unprotected until that changes.
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Old 02-16-2019, 06:08 PM   #14492
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Re: Ex-Official Winning Poker Network (ACR, BCP, True) Discussion Thread

^^ all that.

And yea the bots adjust. It's funny in a sad kind of way when 6 accounts unilaterally and simultaneously incorporate exactly the same new betsize or line into their play.
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Old 02-16-2019, 10:21 PM   #14493
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Re: Ex-Official Winning Poker Network (ACR, BCP, True) Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by HundredsOfStuff View Post
^^ all that.

And yea the bots adjust. It's funny in a sad kind of way when 6 accounts unilaterally and simultaneously incorporate exactly the same new betsize or line into their play.
Do the bots exist at nl2 nl5 I'm trying buy hold em manager and play micro stakes pretty serious but if professional colluding bots exist it make me feel helpless.
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Old 02-16-2019, 10:28 PM   #14494
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Re: Ex-Official Winning Poker Network (ACR, BCP, True) Discussion Thread

I don't play those stakes but have no doubt they exist there. They are probably less sophisticated though. Don't let them discourage you from getting into poker as there is still money to be made even with them around.
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Old 02-16-2019, 10:45 PM   #14495
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Re: Ex-Official Winning Poker Network (ACR, BCP, True) Discussion Thread

^
Sure I'll have database so I hopefully after so many hands I can filter to see how many times certain players are sitting together etc.

The bots are scary but isolated bots are one thing but bots that give each other whole card info as part of algorithm would be such a losing scenario
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Old 02-17-2019, 01:39 AM   #14496
LuckyShim
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Re: Ex-Official Winning Poker Network (ACR, BCP, True) Discussion Thread

@Winning_TD,

More satellites for the 1k buy in 200k GTD on Sundays please! Preferably ones that start a little later on.
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Old 02-17-2019, 06:40 AM   #14497
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Re: Ex-Official Winning Poker Network (ACR, BCP, True) Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by MCAChiTown View Post
I don't play PLO so I can't speak to the exploitability of the bots in those games. I do know from firsthand experience that NLHE cash games bots from the micro to mid-stakes can be adjusted to how you're playing against them and can start to take a more balanced and less exploitable approach against you which makes playing against them less profitable, if at all after rake. While some of them are initially pretty exploitable for a solid poker player, very few of which play below the mid-stakes, they still cause significant damage to the poker ecosystem by continuously taking a ton of money from the weaker players with their ability to put in massive amounts of volume without tilting or losing focus.



I completely agree.
Other than potential card sharing/collusion, this characteristic of bots is the one that bothers me the most. The bots do not tilt. They do not vary their strategy or make a mistake based on a previous hand (unless coded in by the bot maker to increase wr). Their ability to stay tilt-free is such a massive advantage in the long run. I'm much better now at not tilting, but thinking back, if I could erase just the top 5% of my worst raises/calls from tilt over my 5 million hand sample, that would have to be a HUGE gain in winrate/$.

Even though I think the bots are still slightly inferior - and it's getting closer every year - to the best human players, they do not ever play anything but their A game, all while they put in massive volume every week. Humans get tired, distracted, tilted and often perform sub-optimally relative to their best.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Spacerat65 View Post
^
Sure I'll have database so I hopefully after so many hands I can filter to see how many times certain players are sitting together etc.

The bots are scary but isolated bots are one thing but bots that give each other whole card info as part of algorithm would be such a losing scenario
I do think it's very likely that the bots are colluding or card sharing. I have no definitive proof. Nor do I want to spend the time combing my database to try and figure it out. As others have pointed out, it's not in WPN's best interest to remove bots from their poker economy. And I (and other regs) would rather spend time grinding than trying to remove these bots, especially when WPN seems to have no interest in getting rid of them.
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Old 02-17-2019, 11:08 AM   #14498
Sir Huntington
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Re: Ex-Official Winning Poker Network (ACR, BCP, True) Discussion Thread

Does WPN have a license to operate somewhere? If so what kind of regulatory body are they dealing with and can we go to them?
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Old 02-17-2019, 02:08 PM   #14499
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Re: Ex-Official Winning Poker Network (ACR, BCP, True) Discussion Thread

Black Chip Poker is the worst! Nonstop issues all the time. This morning I tried logging in to the poker client and was told that an authentication code was sent to my email and I needed to verify the account before I could play. I checked my email....no code. I open and closed the client multiple times with it "sending me a code" each time and nothing ever came to my inbox or junk mail.

I contacted support over the phone who then asked me to change my email address. They assisted with having the email changed and then asked me to to try logging in with the new email. I did this and was told that the authentication code has been sent to my new email. What do you know? No code ever comes. Support emailed me multiple times and I received those emails fine so it's obviously an issue with the system.

So now after 2 hours on the phone the rep tells me that she has tried everything and that she is going to "create a case" for my issue and pass it on. Awesome....What a god damn joke of a site. This was the last straw. Bovada here I come.
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Old 02-17-2019, 06:36 PM   #14500
GlutenFreeroll
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Re: Ex-Official Winning Poker Network (ACR, BCP, True) Discussion Thread

@winningTD good job with the schedule for these series. no troll. seems like buyins are fairly well spread, guarantees being hit. much better than the last few i remember. could use a couple higher buyins on the micro heavy days, and 5 hour late reg is still garbage. maybe try to limit that to sundays? otherwise wp

now that i said a nice thing PLEASE FIX JACKPOT GAMES and obligatory mention of bots and mucked cards
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