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Old 09-20-2018, 07:57 PM   #13651
a dewd
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Re: Ex-Official Winning Poker Network (ACR, BCP, True) Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by dmt4me View Post
WPN is a risk as a player because of the shaky foundation its built on- but as far as a DOJ investigation? nope

sheldon adelson is the reason online poker is dead in the US- so as long as he doesnt know WPN exists and doesnt tell his friend Trump, we should be good lol (relatively speaking)
That I think you're very wrong on. Their customer service is pretty bad, crashing issues are a pain in the ass, etc...but financially speaking, they are very very strong.
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Old 09-20-2018, 08:00 PM   #13652
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Re: Ex-Official Winning Poker Network (ACR, BCP, True) Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by a dewd View Post
That I think you're very wrong on. Their customer service is pretty bad, crashing issues are a pain in the ass, etc...but financially speaking, they are very very strong.


your first two points arent really relevant in this day and age (they should be though) - if your the only game in town you can get away with a lot

and i also disagree with them being “very very strong” financially- i dont know how you came up with that. i think they have enough money to payout winning players- that doesnt mean they are financially very very strong
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Old 09-20-2018, 08:24 PM   #13653
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Re: Ex-Official Winning Poker Network (ACR, BCP, True) Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by dmt4me View Post
your first two points arent really relevant in this day and age (they should be though) - if your the only game in town you can get away with a lot

and i also disagree with them being “very very strong” financially- i dont know how you came up with that. i think they have enough money to payout winning players- that doesnt mean they are financially very very strong
If you're concerned if whether or not the pockets with say-so are deep or not, you can look Town view Trading up. The least of concerns is whether or not they can afford a small hit or ten.
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Old 09-20-2018, 08:27 PM   #13654
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Re: Ex-Official Winning Poker Network (ACR, BCP, True) Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by a dewd View Post
If you're concerned if whether or not the pockets with say-so are deep or not, you can look Town view Trading up. The least of concerns is whether or not they can afford a small hit or ten.


im not concerned about any of this stuff lol. im just giving my observation since returning from black friday

im not going to lie to you dewd - i was initially so shocked at how bad things were after so many years. but im content now- it works for what it is lol
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Old 09-20-2018, 08:34 PM   #13655
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Re: Ex-Official Winning Poker Network (ACR, BCP, True) Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by Bobo Fett View Post
I'm not sure how he made your point - you're describing an entirely different situation, and your conclusions are based on a whole lot of speculation. Your "most likely scenario" doesn't seem very likely at all to me.
? Why are you chiming in on this at all? WPN cannot and will not be shutdown by DOJ. They have no business registration within the US, and don't conduct business on US soil or even an ally of US. They market to US players in states where they have no legal online options and are completely playing at there own risk.

But troll away for the good of the community.
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Old 09-21-2018, 12:56 AM   #13656
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Re: Ex-Official Winning Poker Network (ACR, BCP, True) Discussion Thread

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Interesting how you draw this conclusion considering that the majority of sites shut down have had funds fully recovered by users.
Source?
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Old 09-21-2018, 03:25 AM   #13657
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Re: Ex-Official Winning Poker Network (ACR, BCP, True) Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by dmt4me View Post
WPN is a risk as a player because of the shaky foundation its built on- but as far as a DOJ investigation? nope

sheldon adelson is the reason online poker is dead in the US- so as long as he doesnt know WPN exists and doesnt tell his friend Trump, we should be good lol (relatively speaking)
Online poker is dead? News to me...I'm still printing
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Old 09-21-2018, 06:01 AM   #13658
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Re: Ex-Official Winning Poker Network (ACR, BCP, True) Discussion Thread

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? Why are you chiming in on this at all?
Is there some kind of secret handshake required to join in the conversation?

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Originally Posted by DaddyDuck View Post
WPN cannot and will not be shutdown by DOJ. They have no business registration within the US, and don't conduct business on US soil or even an ally of US.
While I don't think they're quite as invulnerable as you're suggesting here, I don't disagree with this general sentiment. What I was disagreeing with was your statements that "if they did you will not get a single penny back by way of US govt.", and "Most likely scenario is DOJ blocks their IP addresses and shortly after the site pops back up under a different name and IP... and all your funds that were in the account are gone." While either situation is possible, I don't think they are very likely.

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But troll away for the good of the community.
Disagreeing does not equal trolling.

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Originally Posted by krcmdc View Post
Source?
Poker Stars, Full Tilt, Absolute Poker, Ultimate Bet - you don't need links to the threads, do you?

Unless you're disputing "have had funds fully recovered by users.", because this is incorrect. But I believe a large majority received most or all of their funds, and I'm assuming this is what he meant, but worded very poorly.
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Old 09-21-2018, 06:40 AM   #13659
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Re: Ex-Official Winning Poker Network (ACR, BCP, True) Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by Bobo Fett View Post
Is there some kind of secret handshake required to join in the conversation? Ex-Official Winning Poker Network (ACR, BCP, True) Discussion Thread


While I don't think they're quite as invulnerable as you're suggesting here, I don't disagree with this general sentiment. What I was disagreeing with was your statements that "if they did you will not get a single penny back by way of US govt.", and "Most likely scenario is DOJ blocks their IP addresses and shortly after the site pops back up under a different name and IP... and all your funds that were in the account are gone." While either situation is possible, I don't think they are very likely.


Disagreeing does not equal trolling.


Poker Stars, Full Tilt, Absolute Poker, Ultimate Bet - you don't need links to the threads, do you?

Unless you're disputing "have had funds fully recovered by users.", because this is incorrect. But I believe a large majority received most or all of their funds, and I'm assuming this is what he meant, but worded very poorly.
All fair points Bobo. Bo handshake needed, but you dont even mess with these lobrow sites right? Most people I know still never received all of their funds back from Full Tilt or Ultimate Bet though and it took years to get back anything. My main argument about the differences between then and now is that at that time those sites were attempting to conduct business in the US in the proper legal fashion. Where as today these sites are basically hiding in plain site.

I am yes speculating that DOJ wouldnt recover funds because of jurisdiction and lack of american based bank accounts to be seized, but I dont truly know DOJ limitations. Just seems it would be a whole lot easier for DOJ to kick in the doors if Nagy had an office in say.. Arizona?
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Old 09-21-2018, 08:41 AM   #13660
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Re: Ex-Official Winning Poker Network (ACR, BCP, True) Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by Bobo Fett View Post
Poker Stars, Full Tilt, Absolute Poker, Ultimate Bet - you don't need links to the threads, do you?
Really? So in your world, at most 7 internet poker sites have ever unexpectedly shut down?
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Old 09-21-2018, 10:13 AM   #13661
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Re: Ex-Official Winning Poker Network (ACR, BCP, True) Discussion Thread

How legitimate or trustworthy is the site?

I look at some of the big guarantee tourneys they offer. I see many same names playing them every week, (probably the good regs).

Now if WPN is as bad as some say they are, why would these regs keep playing these tourneys?

I sharkscope some of them and they're doing pretty well, they obviously have a decent bankroll and must withdraw regularly otherwise surely they wouldn't be playing on the site.
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Old 09-21-2018, 10:59 AM   #13662
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Re: Ex-Official Winning Poker Network (ACR, BCP, True) Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by Donskey View Post
How legitimate or trustworthy is the site?

I look at some of the big guarantee tourneys they offer. I see many same names playing them every week, (probably the good regs).

Now if WPN is as bad as some say they are, why would these regs keep playing these tourneys?

I sharkscope some of them and they're doing pretty well, they obviously have a decent bankroll and must withdraw regularly otherwise surely they wouldn't be playing on the site.
Would I leave my roll on there? No.

My theory is as long as I'm making money on there and cashing out I don't see a reason to not play.

I think a good majority of the rigtards are losing players and just looking to place the blame someone because they suck at poker in 2018. Like one guy thinks cause he was a winning player online 10 years ago that he should still be winning today even though he probably hasn't changed his game or done any work to stay a winning player.

Poker isn't what it used to be and if you're not putting in the work you won't see the results.

Ali Imsirovic is a great example of what happens when you put in the work and he was grinding ACR just a few years ago
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Old 09-21-2018, 11:00 AM   #13663
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Re: Ex-Official Winning Poker Network (ACR, BCP, True) Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by Donskey View Post

I sharkscope some of them and they're doing pretty well, they obviously have a decent bankroll and must withdraw regularly otherwise surely they wouldn't be playing on the site.
I don't subscribe to Sharkscope and don't use it that much.
Your comment made me think however so I just went and checked my HEM.

This year I have played 41,220 hands. And I mostly hang in the SNG's - with some shots at $10 tournaments. And some 10 20 50 NL & PLO.

I have one villain with 962 hand history (is my Maximum). A couple dozen or so villains with several hundred hands plus. Overwhelming majority is < 100 hands.

Not seeing where the "regulars" are.

Let me say to the Nerds who are about to claim that 41 thousand hands is not a good sample size, "go F yourself" 41k is plenty.

Years ago, I would have hand histories in the thousands on players on sites like PS & FT that got much much higher traffic the WPN.

Possible that these Regs you mention are in the Higher Buy-Ins only - I don't play in those on WPN.
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Old 09-22-2018, 04:22 AM   #13664
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Re: Ex-Official Winning Poker Network (ACR, BCP, True) Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by DaddyDuck View Post
All fair points Bobo. Bo handshake needed, but you dont even mess with these lobrow sites right?
Ah, I see what you're getting at. It's true that not being American, I don't share the direct experiences of most ITT.

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Originally Posted by DaddyDuck View Post
Most people I know still never received all of their funds back from Full Tilt or Ultimate Bet though and it took years to get back anything.
Hmm. Well, if you know of anyone who didn't get their AP/UB money back, there's a thread in NVG with details of how to do that, and it *might* still be possible to go through that process. Probably wouldn't even hurt to check out the same for FT, but it's been a while since those refunds were issued. I know there are some people who didn't get money back for one reason or another, but if it's most people you know, I can't help but wonder if some of them didn't know about how to do it. Or maybe they were just unlucky, or the unpaid number is greater than I thought. And agreed that it took a long time. A VERY long time.

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Originally Posted by DaddyDuck View Post
My main argument about the differences between then and now is that at that time those sites were attempting to conduct business in the US in the proper legal fashion. Where as today these sites are basically hiding in plain site.
They were flouting the UIGEA just like the ones that are still around, but you're right that it was out in the open then, whereas now they do things differently.

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Originally Posted by DaddyDuck View Post
I am yes speculating that DOJ wouldnt recover funds because of jurisdiction and lack of american based bank accounts to be seized, but I dont truly know DOJ limitations. Just seems it would be a whole lot easier for DOJ to kick in the doors if Nagy had an office in say.. Arizona?
The thing is, it's not just whether the DOJ would recover the funds, but also whether the sites would just flee with the money. If they want to keep operating on a different IP, as you mentioned, they might want to keep their customers, which would mean leaving the funds in their accounts. And I'm also not convinced that the DOJ would even be able, or willing, to go the route of blocking IPs anyway. But admittedly I'm also just speculating.

Quote:
Originally Posted by krcmdc View Post
Really? So in your world, at most 7 internet poker sites have ever unexpectedly shut down?
LOL, what? I named 4 sites - the ones that were affected by the DOJ's actions on "Black Friday". That's what was being discussed - sites shut down in the US by the DOJ, not any site that's ever shut down unexpectedly. Of course we all know that no one got their money back from Lock, Full Flush, Minted, and a number of other sites.
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Old 09-22-2018, 08:27 AM   #13665
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Re: Ex-Official Winning Poker Network (ACR, BCP, True) Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by Bobo Fett View Post
LOL, what? I named 4 sites - the ones that were affected by the DOJ's actions on "Black Friday". That's what was being discussed - sites shut down in the US by the DOJ, not any site that's ever shut down unexpectedly. Of course we all know that no one got their money back from Lock, Full Flush, Minted, and a number of other sites.
LOL, what? Perhaps you should stop trying to mock me, and re-read what the man wrote...


Quote:
Originally Posted by kahntrutahn View Post
Interesting how you draw this conclusion considering that the majority of sites shut down have had funds fully recovered by users. Granted, it took finagling and years of effort, but it happened.

The few sites that haven't were, in many cases, obvious frauds like Jao Poker for example.
..as I'm pretty sure that sites like Jao Poker were not part of Black Friday, nor were they shut down by the US DOJ.
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Old 09-22-2018, 06:12 PM   #13666
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Re: Ex-Official Winning Poker Network (ACR, BCP, True) Discussion Thread

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LOL, what? Perhaps you should stop trying to mock me, and re-read what the man wrote...

..as I'm pretty sure that sites like Jao Poker were not part of Black Friday, nor were they shut down by the US DOJ.
My little chuckle at your post really wasn't intended to be mocking you personally - my apologies. And now that we've finally gotten down to the three words of his post that you were disputing, I guess that's a second apology from me, sorry.

On a separate note, I don't think it really changes his point, as changing "the majority of" to "many" fixes it IMO.

To steal the words of a better mod than I - I'll get my coat.
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Old 09-23-2018, 03:55 PM   #13667
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Re: Ex-Official Winning Poker Network (ACR, BCP, True) Discussion Thread

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On a separate note, I don't think it really changes his point, as changing "the majority of" to "many" fixes it IMO.
I suppose we can have differing opinions, but that doesn't fix it imo.

I've personally had money vanish with PokerStars, Pokerspot, WSEX, Lock, JetSet, Minted and probably a couple more that I'm not remembering at this moment. But I do know for certain that I recovered the money from PokerStars and absolutely nowhere else.

I know people have eventually recovered FTP monies, and some are actually getting AP/UB money as well.

But I don't remember any other occasion where sites went down, without paying players ~immediately or merging accounts to some other site, and players recovered the money. It probably has happened on sites that didn't affect me, but I tend to think that it would be quite a rare occurrence.

So to me that's more like "some sites" or "a few sites", it's not "many sites" imo or ime, it's certainly not a "majority of sites". And his point seemed to have the intent to imply that we're "likely" to recover money when internet poker sites shut down unexpectedly, and I don't believe that it's true. It's possible that we recover the money, but it's not likely imo or ime.

I could be wrong, and he's certainly someone who is likely to be more informed than myself, if I'm wrong, I'd like to know, so I asked him for a source to confirm his statement.
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Old 09-24-2018, 04:23 AM   #13668
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Re: Ex-Official Winning Poker Network (ACR, BCP, True) Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by krcmdc View Post
I've personally had money vanish with PokerStars, Pokerspot, WSEX, Lock, JetSet, Minted and probably a couple more that I'm not remembering at this moment. But I do know for certain that I recovered the money from PokerStars and absolutely nowhere else.
That sucks, and I'm sorry to hear it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by krcmdc View Post
But I don't remember any other occasion where sites went down, without paying players ~immediately or merging accounts to some other site, and players recovered the money. It probably has happened on sites that didn't affect me, but I tend to think that it would be quite a rare occurrence.
I'd agree with you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by krcmdc View Post
So to me that's more like "some sites" or "a few sites", it's not "many sites" imo or ime, it's certainly not a "majority of sites". And his point seemed to have the intent to imply that we're "likely" to recover money when internet poker sites shut down unexpectedly, and I don't believe that it's true. It's possible that we recover the money, but it's not likely imo or ime.
I actually think you're both right. Well, in kahn's case, I think the point he was going for was right, even if the post was flawed. This is the quote he was replying to:

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaddyDuck View Post
They will not shut these guys down and if they did you will not get a single penny back by way of US govt.

Anyway just my random 2cents
Given that many, and possibly most, players on all of the sites shut down by the DOJ in the past received some or all of their money back, I can see why he was disputing the speculation that if a site was shut down by the DOJ in the future, no one should expect to receive a single penny.

But perhaps I'm misunderstanding his point. Either way, I should endeavor to stop trying to argue other's points for them, and get my coat like I said I was in my last post.
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Old 09-24-2018, 10:02 AM   #13669
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Re: Ex-Official Winning Poker Network (ACR, BCP, True) Discussion Thread

How does the 27% rakeback on ACR compare to the elite programs? Right now I play micro/low stakes and not a lot of volume but my account defaulted to the elite program and from what I've read, rakeback seems like a better deal considering I'm not grinding or playing high stakes. Any thoughts or info to share?
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Old 09-24-2018, 10:14 AM   #13670
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Re: Ex-Official Winning Poker Network (ACR, BCP, True) Discussion Thread

Unless you play a lot, 27% is better.
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Old 09-24-2018, 10:21 AM   #13671
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Re: Ex-Official Winning Poker Network (ACR, BCP, True) Discussion Thread

does it matter if im playing cash games or MTT?
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Old 09-24-2018, 10:29 AM   #13672
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Re: Ex-Official Winning Poker Network (ACR, BCP, True) Discussion Thread

Either will be better on 27%. Cash will be a bit lower than 27% due to The Beast. SNGs will be about 20% due to Sit&Crush, which is still better than Elite.
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Old 09-24-2018, 10:31 AM   #13673
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Re: Ex-Official Winning Poker Network (ACR, BCP, True) Discussion Thread

hmm okay i see. and I've read that the breakeven point is 1000$ per year on rake between switching from rakeback to elite, is this still true? also, I have a initial deposit bonus i've filled $2/50 so far and i would lose that by changing to rakeback. should i fill this bonus out first or change now and have rakeback sooner?
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Old 09-24-2018, 10:36 AM   #13674
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Re: Ex-Official Winning Poker Network (ACR, BCP, True) Discussion Thread

Not sure what the exact number is, but think more like $1500 in rake per month on average, or $18k in a calendar year, for Elite to be better.

While under bonus, it's probably relatively close. My best guess would be sacrifice the bonus and switch to RB. If you're on ACR and getting the daily cash also, then keep elite until those run out.

Last edited by Max Cut; 09-24-2018 at 10:42 AM.
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Old 09-24-2018, 10:40 AM   #13675
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Re: Ex-Official Winning Poker Network (ACR, BCP, True) Discussion Thread

okay thank you so much

btw I forfeit my 50$ bonus from point gains, but I keep my daily cash card spins so rakeback seems like the best move now.

Last edited by mhong64; 09-24-2018 at 10:45 AM.
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