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Old 02-18-2011, 08:27 AM   #1
MisoHoneySoup
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An Email To Ipoker/Playtech Re: Suspected Botting, Bots, Collusion etc

So I sent a brief email to Ipoker and naturally I received their default drivel line to which I sent the following reply....

Quote:
Dear x,

With all due respect x your security department is either deliberately dismissing bot claims or it's totally inept.

Here is a brief list of suspected bots that are/were operating on Ipoker and this is just the tip of the iceberg...
They are playing all forms of games now, Omaha, Hodlem MTT, SNG etc.

****

Some of these accounts have logged sessions that few humans could do so day in day out, they all share the exact same stats in their respective games.
Are you aware how statistically unlikely it is for such a large pool of players to share near identical stats in their respective games?

But of course your security dept. claims these people are not bots, it's just coincidence right? What's your procedure, contact the account holder and personally ask them? and when they say no you are satisfied with their response and case closed?


This has gotten beyond a joke at this point, your network is riddled with bots and you clearly don't give a damn and it's time to take matters to the next level. If you won't listen to the network players, perhaps you will listen to your customers who pay their skin fees because they will all be implicated on various sites as being companies that have skins on a bot riddled network.

You should consider changing your poker room motto to "always a bot to fill the house".

Now the above appear to be relatively sophisticated but still exploitable bots, however the following really takes the proverbial biscuit.

www.xxxxx.com Ipoker is listed as a "bot friendly network" while most these bots probably lose I'm not so worried about them however what worries me is that you are considered to be a bot friendly network. www.xxxxx.com has a direct affiliation with one of your skin operators who acts to serve as a gateway to your network for botters.

But there's no bots on ipoker right?

Please don't insult my intelligence sir.

Regards,


I no longer play on Ipoker as they've clearly proven themselves to be incompetent in the market, the only reason they are one of Europe's largest site operator is due to their acquisition of Tribeca, before this their network was stagnant and full of micro limit fish. Since the acquisition their numbers have slowly but surely declined as more and more players and skins became disillusioned with them and not without good reason.

Time and time again when individual player issues arise complaints are normally met with incompetence and indifference. If you think back to all the Ipoker issues that have arisen on this forum there's been a litany of issues and very few have been addressed/resolved by Ipoker as you would expect as a paying customer.

The Jackpot SNG prize pool, billion hand promo, players falsely accused of x, y and z, currency skimming to name but a few.

In regards to botting - One can only come to so many conclusions as to why ipoker appear to have an inability to identify bots on their network.
  • They simply don't have the tools.
  • Their detection methods have been leaked and the serious botters are enjoying a haven knowing how to mask themselves from their tools.
  • They don't give a damn but they enjoy the rake they pay
  • We are all wrong and none of these players are bots
  • The most sinister of all conclusions one can draw is that perhaps Ipoker are operating these bots themselves, which would go a long way to explaining their stance on the matter (this is a thought, not an accusation, one must consider all possibilities however)

We all know Ipoker have developed bots probably for "testing" purposes, as it's clearly printed in their terms and conditions. I can't go into this further due to potential breach of contract.


So Ipoker won't listen to it's individual customer complaints, I feel it's time to up the ante and start getting the bigger skins involved in addressing certain issues on the ipoker network. Personally i'm sick to death of their nonchalant attitude towards their paying customers(ipoker).

There's literally pages and pages of information available on the net pertaining to poor experiences/treatment of Ipokers customers and an inability to address them in a professional manner. I feel that it's time all this information was gathered , condensed and published for all to see in an organised manner so to truly highlight the ambiguous nature of this company. Feel free to post any poor experience you have on this thread!

Lastly you will note in my email to ipoker I mentioned that bots were now playing most if not all poker variants, this is unfortunately the reality of the situation, the extent of their sophistication is highly debatable.

I would love to hear from anyone who has a large DB of player stats on Ipoker Omaha tables, my DB has started to show some striking similarities amongst some players but unfortunately the sample size is not large enough to provide conclusive results worth publishing. I did pm the OP of the following thread and an Omaha mod but got no reply unfortunately...
https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/28...ipoker-766070/


I literally need a brief moment of your time to review some specific stat ranges. Whether these suspected bots are winning or losing is irrelevant imo, the future health of online poker is threatened by these bots and as more and more stories surface they will ultimately sour the experience and views of the recreational players.

The only way you will get this company to start addressing issues in a professional manner is if their revenue is affected as a direct result of their inability to resolve issues accordingly. Otherwise you might as well go complain to a brick wall. (I suspect you might get more satisfaction complaining to a wall tbh, at least it wont talk back to you assuring you everything is fine on ipoker)

Enough is enough, vote with your feet and also be sure to tell the skin you're leaving/left precisely why.

I'll be compiling all this information and publishing it on a website in the near future.

/puts on his tinfoil hat and flame retardant overalls.

Last edited by Mike Haven; 03-07-2011 at 11:50 AM.
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Old 02-18-2011, 08:39 AM   #2
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Re: An Email To Ipoker/Playtech Re: Suspected Botting, Bots, Collusion etc

VERY interesting post.

I think you would benefit by co-operating with PTR.

Make them do a investigation and public an article, that will put their pants on fire...
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Old 02-18-2011, 09:53 AM   #3
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Re: An Email To Ipoker/Playtech Re: Suspected Botting, Bots, Collusion etc

Good post OP.

It's known that bots are on ipoker, some bot sites even have affiliate setups to get botters on there and its rated as a place where one can easily run your bot. Check out bot manufacturers, they're genuinely promoting botting on Ipoker and yet the network does nothing about it.

Ipoker are interested in one thing, and one thing only; the rake. The rake is the only important thing to them and they've demonstrated that time and time again. Bots on the network? Pffft, skip. Winners on the network making cashouts? Lets ban them.

They simply don't care, nor will they ever thanks to them gaining what I would imagine to be a significant amount of casino revenue as well. They get money off every skin for letting them set up there, then get a large % of each skins rake and a % of their casino revenue. What do they do for the players in return? Nothing. They even leave all the advertising to the skins so that the players there are literally costing them nothing. Yet, they've the worst support, worst software and worst legit vip deals going.

It'd be a good thing for the future of online poker if Ipoker were to just disappear one day.

Last edited by Mike Haven; 03-07-2011 at 11:48 AM.
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Old 02-18-2011, 11:59 AM   #4
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Re: An Email To Ipoker/Playtech Re: Suspected Botting, Bots, Collusion etc

if you cant't beat bots quit
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Old 02-18-2011, 12:01 PM   #5
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Re: An Email To Ipoker/Playtech Re: Suspected Botting, Bots, Collusion etc

Quote:
Originally Posted by pitcold View Post
if you cant't beat bots quit
Feel free to jump in and play the HU limit bots at 3/6 up to 5/10 euro (not sure if there are any at the 10/20+ yet). They will give you as much action as you can give. They are very strong. I should know, I've played over 300k hands of HULHE, I coach it and it's my job, and I've played over 1.5k hands vs the bots. I don't play them any longer.

And what's funny is that there's a limited number of HU tables, and bots take up 90%+ seats. Most days I don't even get to sit along side them.

Go and PTR all the guys sitting waiting for action. The bots have identical stats (all matching within the confidence intervals PTR gives) down the page. They aren't hard to spot.
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Old 02-18-2011, 12:20 PM   #6
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Re: An Email To Ipoker/Playtech Re: Suspected Botting, Bots, Collusion etc

Nice post OP

HomeJerome, mentioned in the OP, is the highest winning 50FL account of all time across all sites, according to PTR

Another account people have suspected is the highest winning 20NL (exceeding 25nl too) account of all time (also on iPoker)

The amount of damage these bots do in draining money from fish is sickening
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Old 02-18-2011, 12:32 PM   #7
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Re: An Email To Ipoker/Playtech Re: Suspected Botting, Bots, Collusion etc

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hood View Post
Feel free to jump in and play the HU limit bots at 3/6 up to 5/10 euro (not sure if there are any at the 10/20+ yet). They will give you as much action as you can give. They are very strong. I should know, I've played over 300k hands of HULHE, I coach it and it's my job, and I've played over 1.5k hands vs the bots. I don't play them any longer.

And what's funny is that there's a limited number of HU tables, and bots take up 90%+ seats. Most days I don't even get to sit along side them.

Go and PTR all the guys sitting waiting for action. The bots have identical stats (all matching within the confidence intervals PTR gives) down the page. They aren't hard to spot.
well don't play brainless FL, learn play NL its 2011
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Old 02-18-2011, 12:47 PM   #8
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Re: An Email To Ipoker/Playtech Re: Suspected Botting, Bots, Collusion etc

Quote:
Originally Posted by jspill View Post
Nice post OP

HomeJerome, mentioned in the OP, is the highest winning 50FL account of all time across all sites, according to PTR

Another account people have suspected is the highest winning 20NL (exceeding 25nl too) account of all time (also on iPoker)

The amount of damage these bots do in draining money from fish is sickening
The message in this post? 50 FL and 20 NL are still beatable. Good for the poker universe.
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Old 02-18-2011, 12:50 PM   #9
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Re: An Email To Ipoker/Playtech Re: Suspected Botting, Bots, Collusion etc

Quote:
Originally Posted by pitcold View Post
if you cant't beat bots quit
As I've said many are exploitable and I've done so myself, to the point that one bot I played and beat over and over, I clearly ticked off the owner as after the 9th game the style of play dramatically changed, this wasn't progressive it was a sharp and abrupt change and very noticeable. The next day same thing happened again, only after 2 games. I couldn't help but make a remark to the effect - bot not good enough for me? The next day my chat was revoked on that skin. Over the years i've had countless accounts with skins on the IPN and I've never had my chat banned and I've thrown out my fair share of insults in my time

Quote:
Originally Posted by pitcold View Post
well don't play brainless FL, learn play NL its 2011
Where do you get off telling people how they should make their living?

In both posts you've made on this thread you've illustrated complete ignorance and a very narrow minded and short sighted opinion on the matter. Try looking at the bigger picture and the long term effects this will have on online poker.
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Old 02-18-2011, 01:14 PM   #10
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Re: An Email To Ipoker/Playtech Re: Suspected Botting, Bots, Collusion etc

Shocking? Not to me. I made three complaints to live support yesterday in regards to collusion. I was playing a highish buyin sitngo and on the bubble these 2 players were chip dumping like mad. perfect example: blinds were 150/300 I believe...button minraises to 600... bb with 690..pushes all in...and button folds. next hand: SB limps..BB raises to 1000...SB reraises 1100ish all in.. BB folds.

cashed out this morning.
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Old 02-18-2011, 04:11 PM   #11
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Re: An Email To Ipoker/Playtech Re: Suspected Botting, Bots, Collusion etc

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cashed out this morning.
This is the best advice one can give in regards to ipoker it seems.
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Old 02-18-2011, 04:51 PM   #12
MisoHoneySoup
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Re: An Email To Ipoker/Playtech Re: Suspected Botting, Bots, Collusion etc

Quote:
Originally Posted by No Fizzle View Post
This is the best advice one can give in regards to ipoker it seems.
Well said. Ipoker don't seem capable of listening to reason, perhaps they will change their attitude if their revenue takes a hit.

I'm going to contact PTR and see about getting something mainstream published.
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Old 02-18-2011, 06:39 PM   #13
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Re: An Email To Ipoker/Playtech Re: Suspected Botting, Bots, Collusion etc

wow. So I ask the live support what they are doing and tell them Im taking all my hand histories and studying them because I feel there was some serious collusion/bots. They lock me out of my account, send me an email and say my cashout will be processed but they dont want my business on their network. Just for asking about my hh.
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Old 02-19-2011, 04:52 AM   #14
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Re: An Email To Ipoker/Playtech Re: Suspected Botting, Bots, Collusion etc

Quote:
Originally Posted by pitcold View Post
if you cant't beat bots quit
Having the ability to beat bots shouldn't make you any less in favour of their removal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pitcold View Post
well don't play brainless FL, learn play NL its 2011
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Old 02-19-2011, 07:05 AM   #15
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Re: An Email To Ipoker/Playtech Re: Suspected Botting, Bots, Collusion etc

Quote:
Originally Posted by 50B.C. View Post
wow. So I ask the live support what they are doing and tell them Im taking all my hand histories and studying them because I feel there was some serious collusion/bots. They lock me out of my account, send me an email and say my cashout will be processed but they dont want my business on their network. Just for asking about my hh.

Would you mind telling me what skin this was on? You can pm me if you prefer, i'd rather you post it here though
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Old 02-19-2011, 07:06 AM   #16
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Re: An Email To Ipoker/Playtech Re: Suspected Botting, Bots, Collusion etc

Quote:
Originally Posted by 50B.C. View Post
wow. So I ask the live support what they are doing and tell them Im taking all my hand histories and studying them because I feel there was some serious collusion/bots. They lock me out of my account, send me an email and say my cashout will be processed but they dont want my business on their network. Just for asking about my hh.
lol'd
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Old 02-19-2011, 07:53 AM   #17
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Re: An Email To Ipoker/Playtech Re: Suspected Botting, Bots, Collusion etc

Ipoker dont care about bots, they care about one thing, rake.
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Old 02-19-2011, 07:59 AM   #18
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Re: An Email To Ipoker/Playtech Re: Suspected Botting, Bots, Collusion etc

Quote:
Originally Posted by pitcold View Post
if you cant't beat bots quit
Every player losing less than rake is making games tougher and taking money out of poker economy.

If you are 5bb/100 winner in a game where rake is 7bb/100, you would be a loser if you played in table full of -1bb/100 losers.
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Old 02-19-2011, 12:04 PM   #19
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Re: An Email To Ipoker/Playtech Re: Suspected Botting, Bots, Collusion etc

This issue, along with all iPoker's other incompetencies crop up from time to time on here.

Does anybody have any serious suggestions as to what we can do about this ? Any company whether it's online or 'land-based' have to operate to certain rules and regulations and within the law and I don't feel iPoker are doing this.

I reported the fact that iPoker were allowing bots to operate to the Gibraltar Regulatory Authority, who investigated and said they were happy with iPoker's procedures regarding dealing with bots. What does this mean ? The regulatory body are in on the act with iPoker and not genuine ? iPoker have pulled the wool over their eyes ?

Who else can we take this and all the other mistreatment of customers on iPoker to ? Somebody must have some knowledge or suggestions.
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Old 02-19-2011, 12:21 PM   #20
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Re: An Email To Ipoker/Playtech Re: Suspected Botting, Bots, Collusion etc

Report the "poker authorities" to the higher "poker authorities" if you want to waste more time or are looking to collect more emails for your "thanks for your feedback/comments - now go away " collection. Maybe write Santa Claus and report ipoker as naughty.

The other option of course is you can move your business elsewhere which is the real power you have as a consumer, and others in this thread (and other ipoker bot threads) have done just that. You will not obviously because you like the weird ipoker world for some reason as you continue to play there while complaining about them all the time.

Ipoker pretty much allows bots, some skins openly market/cater to them and they do very little about it and the "poker authorities" have spoken on the topic as well. Only choice left for a player is whether to play on ipoker given these conditions or not, and that is why these threads when they pop up get shorter and shorter since most people realize that is the choice they face at this point with that network and not much else can be said on the topic.
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Old 02-19-2011, 12:35 PM   #21
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Re: An Email To Ipoker/Playtech Re: Suspected Botting, Bots, Collusion etc

Quote:
Originally Posted by FatedToPretend View Post
This issue, along with all iPoker's other incompetencies crop up from time to time on here.

Does anybody have any serious suggestions as to what we can do about this ? Any company whether it's online or 'land-based' have to operate to certain rules and regulations and within the law and I don't feel iPoker are doing this.

I reported the fact that iPoker were allowing bots to operate to the Gibraltar Regulatory Authority, who investigated and said they were happy with iPoker's procedures regarding dealing with bots. What does this mean ? The regulatory body are in on the act with iPoker and not genuine ? iPoker have pulled the wool over their eyes ?

Who else can we take this and all the other mistreatment of customers on iPoker to ? Somebody must have some knowledge or suggestions.
It's a double edged sword with regard to regulatory bodies as their revenue comes from license fees paid by the poker room/network so it's never going to be in their interest to pursue matters seriously.

If you read up on the bodies over at casinomeister you will quickly learn that most if not all are useless.

Ipoker as a network is not a member of any regulatory body, however playtech is.

http://www.rga.eu.com/

http://www.argo.org.uk/

They are the regulatory body for all stock exchange listed companies, I'm not sure if they will entertain any complaint seriously tbh and besides, even if they do, ipoker will assure them there are no bots on our system and they will agree most likely....

I think the big skins need to be made aware of the situation, I have direct contacts for poker managers on a number of skins but before I contact them I want to ensure I have a very convincing case to put to them.

FYI...



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Old 02-19-2011, 01:35 PM   #22
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Re: An Email To Ipoker/Playtech Re: Suspected Botting, Bots, Collusion etc

Quote:
Originally Posted by MisoHoneySoup View Post
It's a double edged sword with regard to regulatory bodies as their revenue comes from license fees paid by the poker room/network so it's never going to be in their interest to pursue matters seriously.

If you read up on the bodies over at casinomeister you will quickly learn that most if not all are useless.

Ipoker as a network is not a member of any regulatory body, however playtech is.

http://www.rga.eu.com/

http://www.argo.org.uk/

They are the regulatory body for all stock exchange listed companies, I'm not sure if they will entertain any complaint seriously tbh and besides, even if they do, ipoker will assure them there are no bots on our system and they will agree most likely....

I think the big skins need to be made aware of the situation, I have direct contacts for poker managers on a number of skins but before I contact them I want to ensure I have a very convincing case to put to them.

FYI...



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So, you're saying the bodies which poker sites claim to be regulated by are completely meaningless and powerless ? That's worrying for other matters, not just the bots issue.

This needs to be investigated and dealt with, iPoker must be answerable to someone. For example, if amazon or ebay were not operating properly, who would you take the matter up with ?

I agree, we need to get a number of people together and push the skins to take us seriously.
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Old 02-19-2011, 01:40 PM   #23
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Re: An Email To Ipoker/Playtech Re: Suspected Botting, Bots, Collusion etc

Get a good music soundtrack for inspiration, gather your forces and be the one that gets nothing actually done as you always have in the past.

At the very least you can keep notifying those authorities, while posting vague directionless posts about ipoker in smaller and smaller threads that get nowhere.

Then after all that you can support ipoker with continued play.

All the best.
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Old 02-19-2011, 01:48 PM   #24
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Re: An Email To Ipoker/Playtech Re: Suspected Botting, Bots, Collusion etc

Quote:
Originally Posted by FatedToPretend View Post
So, you're saying the bodies which poker sites claim to be regulated by are completely meaningless and powerless ? That's worrying for other matters, not just the bots issue.

This needs to be investigated and dealt with, iPoker must be answerable to someone. For example, if amazon or ebay were not operating properly, who would you take the matter up with ?

I agree, we need to get a number of people together and push the skins to take us seriously.
More or less that's the case, some will take complaints more seriously than others, I'll be raising this issue over at Casinomeister they are the unofficial regulatory body that gets results with complaints.

With regards to if you had an issue with Ebay Amazon, say for example they refused to give you a refund for a damaged product, you would generally take this issue up (depending on value) with your local small claims court.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monteroy View Post
Get a good music soundtrack for inspiration, gather your forces and be the one that gets nothing actually done as you always have in the past.

At the very least you can keep notifying those authorities, while posting vague directionless posts about ipoker in smaller and smaller threads that get nowhere.

Then after all that you can support ipoker with continued play.

All the best.
Sorry who is this directed towards?

It's this type of defeatist attitude that allows rogue companies to continue to operate and thrive.
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Old 02-19-2011, 01:54 PM   #25
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Re: An Email To Ipoker/Playtech Re: Suspected Botting, Bots, Collusion etc

That was directed at Fated and if you do a search here on Fated's posting history and save yourself a lot of time and effort you might spend chatting with him (hint, he just likes talking about ipoker without end without ever doing anything). Look at the threads he started for a sampling, and most here think he is a fake gimmick at this point.

Reality is many others have started similar threads as you have , including myself years ago (about bots that were in it for rake races on skins like Titan Poker), and it is hardly admitting defeat, rather it is accepting the situation for unfortunately what it is for that network.

I moved my business elsewhere as a result a couple of years ago. I realize you are quite genuine and your thread is a very real expression of how you feel, and I commend you on your choice to not play there any more as a result as that is the power you have as a consumer.

Best of luck in your poker endeavors.
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