Do you seriously believe a publicly traded company that is regulated by UKGC and gibraltar gaming commission would state those if they weren't true?

I'm not sure it makes sense that the only reason there can be more players than before changes is that it's full of bots, especially if you can't even name one.

I care because I want a bot free environment for all honest poker players and doing my part for us all to get that.

Lessu is well known for helping to find and report bots, so if anyone has some useful information, please pass it on to him.
I just wish I could understand Russian. I think there's probably some very juicy stuff on the Gypsy Team forum, that could be usefully posted here, but I wouldn't know where to start.
We could do with a Russian version of Joey Ingram investigating this imo!

1. >90% of them are bots at nl100 ff, as I have told you, they aren't making mistakes.

2.You can find the names yourself, go there and play the damn pool, you will figure out quickly the names.

3.We are wasting our time, there is nothing to investigate here, they do not deliver any data anymore.

4.Wouldn't be the first time a traded company lies.

Thanks mister

It's unfortunate your memory is not the greatest when it comes to those screen names.

Yes, I agree it's waste of time to debate your baseless accusations.

I believe there are more posters who are wrong on the internet so i'll go deal with them now. Take care my internet friend.

Just don't let this topic die guys. That's a massive problem and crime that we've got here. We need to investigate it and take action. Otherwise poker will be over soon.

Why do you think it is a crime what they do? i think it is very unmoral, but i don't think that they break any laws. They might be breaking terms and conditions of some poker sites but poker sites can just bann their accounts. Which law is saying that poker bots are not allowed, especially on illegal poker sites?

By the way i think that OP is making commercial for them, just think about it. Suddenly so many people talk about them, kind of lets do something about it even though you can't do anything against them.

The fact is, bots have became good enough to beat humans on almost any stake. Before, poker sites needed human pro players to run the tables all day long, poker site was winning rake, so it was not much profit for them considering that they give big part of rake to player and to affiliate and have to pay gambling licence and costs of marketing, stuff etc.
In recent years there were poker bots on any poker site almost, but they were not good enough, getting explotied easily, and not acting human like.
Nowadays bots act human like, and play good strategy enough to play profitable vs population on the poker site.
So the new trend is to kick out of the tables human pro players, not let them get big part of the money from recreational, and run own poker bots on the site so get the rake + the money that recreational players loose.

I can't prove it, but look at the meassures in last years. Pokerstars not providing any rakeback, which results in kicking out many human winning players. Party poker not providing HUD which results in not having any control of what is happening. Tables became incredibly tough to beat even on micros on most poker site.
In my opinion online poker will soon become like Slot machines, casino has an edge with own poker bots, but recreational player can get lucky off course and win some money like it is the case vs human winning players.
Everyone saying, bots are very bad for online poker, they will kill online poker etc. Yes they are not good but human winning players are even worse as they greedely max exploit recreational players, meaning recreational players loose too fast and stop playing. Bot can be setup to play soft or strong, meaning recreational player can have more winning sessions and have feeling he can really win.

Hi bot,, you do truly believe in your own bull*** right?

Stealing money, which is essentially what they're doing by breaking the terms & conditions, is usually a crime. Whether any lawyer would take that kind of case to court is unlikely.

There probably isn't such a law, but there might be such laws in a regulated market. I'm not 100% sure.

I doubt any of these sites are "illegal poker sites." Most of them operate in countries that knowingly allow them to operate. It is not illegal to play at them from most locations. The only potentially illegal activity from where I'm at in the USA is the processing of the money to and from banks, which the sites don't do themselves. They work with 3rd party processors to do this. Even the legality of that is murky based on the law.

It's a catch-22. Say nothing and this cheating of honest players continues to happen without players being made aware or make more people aware of the situation and give dishonest people information on where to possibly look to help them do potentially undesirable activities. I tend to think making more people aware is better, even if it potentially leads to some negative side effects. The more people that acknowledge the problem the more likely a solution can be found to fix it, even if the only immediate consequence of their awareness is outrage with the situation by a large part of the community.

Poker sites need traffic to make money. When people are made aware that they're being cheated at a poker site it makes people less likely to play there. This gives the sites an incentive to do something about the situation. If there's not enough outrage from the players then the sites have no incentive to do anything differently.

I can confirm that much of that is true.

I don't think fully autonomous bots are able to beat all humans any stake. Most fully autonomous bots are not winning that much above the mid-stakes as far as I'm aware, but many of the bots these days can constantly win lots of money from weaker players with their basic population exploiting strategies just because of the consistent volume they're able to put in without ever tilting or losing focus.

At the higher stakes an operator using live advisor software is what helps these accounts win against some of the better players. We still consider live advisor software to be a form of botting, but it's not the classic definition that most people think of when they think of bots.

Unfortunately, I think much of what you say in that last part is actually true. It's probably not all completely accurate, but I don't think it's far from the truth.

It's true, the only place you will get a fair game now is live poker. Minimum buy in at most casinos for a cash game is $100, so it's much more expensive than starting at 2nl online and trying to work your way up.

What illegal poker sites? None are illegal. There are no laws saying that a site like ACR can not exist. The law says it is illegal for banks to fund players accounts. Players using bitcoin for instance are in 100% compliance and so is the poker room.

While bots are not illegal they are immoral as you stated. Humans playing humans is a level playing field because emotion can affect the play of a human but not a bot so a bot has an unfair advantage. Fatigue can affect play as well and a bot is unaffected by fatigue.

It's like having a bike race with one person pedaling and another having a motorized bike.

Only an immoral scumbag would bot. I've read on their forums how they justify it in their minds but they also have the nerve to cry when they are caught and their money is confiscated. Then they create an account on 2+2 to tell us how the site is scamming them and they are innocent victims of the poker room and have no idea why they got their money taken.

The bots are being placed there by the sites themselves. Makes the site look busier and they make profit for the site as well.

And how do we know that this is the case? I've suspected house bots/players for years but again, there's nothing I can do about it at this point and those far more knowledgeable than me are clearly well on the matter. I'm still interested in the subject, though.

Can't prove it but I think its true. I agree with mlatasrb post.

Sites like GG for example has their own bots for sure! Lot of people confirmed. Its not that hard to pick up them. they have a lot of bots in allinornothing (like90%+) and have few in cashgame tables (good for starting tables winning some from verybad? players ) and its going up to 5/10 for sure. I mainly playing hs but after this party poker change i doubt any place than stars is ok for small and midstakes players if we are talking about bot detection.

Stars is doing it too I think. It's not as reputable as it used to be, since the takeover.

any chance you guys can post some links to these confirmations/proof that house bots are being used? Or at the very least your data that you are using to make these statements? Maybe some PT/HEM screenshots with suspicious stats or maybe some suspicious schedules of some players that might suggest your completely unsubstantiated claims might have some merit worth further investigation?

I agree that proclaiming sites are using house bots is probably a bad idea. You can find plenty of legitimate bot claims with evidence in this very forum, but I don't believe any of it has been, or can be, credibly linked to show the bots are coming from the sites. I'd love to see it for myself if I'm wrong. There's literally no way I can think of to prove that unless you work for the sites and have access to internal information. The only evidence you could really go off of is if they're not removing bots after you've given the site security your solid evidence that proves that an account is botting. Even that doesn't prove that an account is a house bot. It could just mean that the site is negligent with their botting rules or that they're just too incompetent to deal with the issue.

It's one thing when you troll the rigged thread, but we don't need you derailing serious threads. You've made your point, and you apparently have no evidence (going by the second post quoted above), so it's time for you to move on now.

I'm not trolling, I am serious. I play 2NL on Stars and I don't think it's a fair game. Am only willing to deposit £8 maxium on there as I don't trust it.

I didn't say you're trolling this thread, I said you are derailing it, which you are. You've given your opinion on house bots, but have no evidence, so there's really nothing to discuss further. Move on. Last warning.

Well they break lots of laws.
First, they steal money by cheating, and this line could be interpreted in different ways in order to fall under several laws.
Second, they've got plenty of accounts, how do you think they achieve it? How, after 1 bot i banned, there is always a second one to replace it? Short answer is identity theft by using someone else's ID without his permition or even with his permition.
Third thing might be, by breaking the terms and condition of a poker site you can be sued in a civil court and by consequence pay fines. And it will only apply ofcourse to big corporations, like BotFarm / known software dealers / administrators of big bot networks. And believe me, there are quite a lot of them from every part of the world, germans/chinese/russians etc but most of them are from east-europe, however, on chinese mobile platforms local bots are now more present than any other. So if you find the owner of a bot network, you can fill up a a civil complaint initiating a civil lawsuit for breaking the term and conditons. Myself, I know at least 3 big bots Networks who have their own owner/co-owners and administration.
Today, just investigating and bringing the light on the topic isn't enough. Honest players and poker rooms should work together and punish them by taking concrete and severe action. Let's say someone is banned on 1 room for using a bot, they must ban him on all the other rooms, like pokerstars does. Moreover, they should find a way for criminal and civil suits. Bot users must go punished and made example, they must be afraid. It's a poker virus.
And those who just read and hope for someone else to do their part must be ashamed and at some point will regret. We must fight together!

Poker “eco-room” Project

BotFarm Corporation have been working on creating eco-room for a long time
The idea is:
First they contract with the poker-room on team work. Then BotFarm's bots are launched on the site. Their goal is to maximize the profit of the room.
How this is done:
According to statistics, the types of players are determined, and then the game begins to be edited. A strong profile is turned on against regs and a weak profile against fishes. Bots do not allow tables to decay; if a certain number of players leaving, a bot will join the table. Tables are always available - for this there are robots that play among themselves.
Well, this is all brief, of course, everything is determined by AI there.
Money is divided according to the contract.

I have to say right away that I have no evidences. This is the BotFarm's secret information that the BotFarm's partner told me. His words are confirmed by one of the projects neopokerlab https://neopokerlab.com/poker-analytics. According to him, this scheme has already been tested on a small room (the conversation was a year ago).
I think this was a PokerGrant (little fraudulent Russian poker-room).
But the main problem is that, according to my information, this scheme already works in a big room. I studied this issue for a long time and found two rooms which are serious suspected:

PokerDom - big fraudulent (in my opinion) Russian poker-room.
Bots + one real player often play at tables. No matter how many players write about bots in the PokerDom's topic in GipsyTeam forum, the PokerDom representative replies: "an investigation is underway." The trolls from the BotFarm's constantly reduces all posts about bots to a joke.

PartyPoker.
1. Not so long ago, their management changed.
2. They paid the player Igor Panchenko (Mercator), friend of Peter_Rus, confiscated funds. Confiscated funds were also paid to several other players. The reason for blocking for all of them was using of AI.
3. One of the party ambassadors is likely to use the software provided by the BF, and is very likely an employee of the BotFarm (Anatoly Filatov).
4. Party disables statistics and HUD, and now it is almost impossible to catch bots.

Such a project is a grand fraud against a huge number of people! And, in my opinion, it is a monstrous crime against poker. It is in your interests to investigate this matter narrowly and to take action together.

How to reveal: I think only keep track of nicknames that join the decaying tables.

https://www.pokernews.com/news/2016/...raud-24140.htm

tl;dr the court basically said there is no evidence those bots actually played better than the people who used them thus it wasn't fraud, so as long as you can beat the bot it is not a crime lol

About 1 year ago I started going into the rabbithole of bots.

Started investigating Ipoker and MPN Twister / Fish party games, made couple posts about it.
I think I was one of the best players up to 50 eur.
Lots of suspicious players were playing a lot all day.

In Twister almost all players in the top 10 Twister races identically played (with crazy crazy leaks) yet continued playing the highest limits (50 & 100 euro) usually in pairs. I am not saying they werent beatable but different reg pairs sitting all of my table in a 3 way format makes me not want to play them even tho they looked bad. Twister races running every week:
1 €1,000 Cash
2 €700 Cash
3 €550 Cash
4 €400 Cash
5 €300 Cash
6 €200 Cash + 3x€10 Twister Ticket
7 €100 Cash + 3x€10 Twister Ticket
8 €100 Cash + 3x€10 Twister Ticket
9 €100 Cash + 3x€10 Twister Ticket
10 €100 Cash + 3x€10 Twister Ticket

The total prize pool is 12500eur, the top 10 pays 3700 eur, thats almost 30% of the Twister promo going into the hands of cartel every week. And it has been going on for years. Just this money enough is 52*3700 = 192.000 euros yearly. And its only the race, we didnt account other part of the rakeback which is way more than the race money. We didnt account for the fact the cartel just keeping the highest limits of twisters themselves milking the fish who almost for sure will play against cartel members at 50eur+. We didnt account them sharing hole cards (maybe not in 2x multipliers but biggers- would make sense $EV and stealth wise).

If you play low volume on 20eur and 50 eur or losing to the bots/ live helper operators dont give a **** about you. Start challanging them in Twister races and you get your bankroll back but getting banned.


Made couple forum posts about it but people almost immediately started attacking me- not my facts but myself - with troll accounts derailing anything. This made me angry, giving new energy in my battle.


I did my investigation talking to affiliates, fellow players, coaches, surfing forums for clues.

As I was getting bigger and bigger in knowledge, one day one of my affiliates said he doesnt think I should continue this investigation anymore, saying he is totally honest and I could get into trouble continuing. This was after I started getting grip on them. While I knew what was going on I didnt have 100% evidence, its one thing knowing something yourself and other to prove it on "court".Then after I caught Ipoker reps lying (not the idiots in customer service who chat with you but higher ranking people), couple affiliates closely tied with them lied in serious matter.

After seemingly starting to win the war vs cartel one of my affil pal I know contacted me. He told me about botfarms/ weak regs using assistance doing it on such a high scale I would not believe it. Not just on Ipoker but everywhere, Party, Stars,shitty android clients... And it being a multimillionare dollar business he advised me to stop with investigation because I can find myself in trouble for nothing.

At this point I realized he told the truth and seeing how different poker forums deal with the problem I found:
1. not likely I will get 100% proof about it that paid forum trolls wont derail or dismiss. Even if couple intelligent players knows one see the truth but weaker regs/fish with worse cognitive abilities wont pay attention to it as it is "ahh another the site is rigged story yawn" (or worse starting to write things that doesnt make sense (some stupid **** like: 'Ahh i registrate but in 300 hands I realized RNG is corrupted')
2. Even if I find the miracle unquestionable proof dont think I am enough alone (with couple pals) to bring it down.
3. Even 1&2 happens happens I make a multimillion dollar business of cybercriminal's damage. Then what? Cheaters probably buy other accounts / searching for new bot operators. They have the knowledge on how to run the bot business, in russia or other poor parts of the world people will happily click buttons for 1k eur+ a month. There are things I cant change and thats evil in the world. Especially knowing lots of people in poker dont cheat because they are too stupid to do so, but if opportunity presented they would in a heartbeat. Also seeing how corporations as a rule of thumb tries to cheat people.. we have bigger problems in the world than this for sure ( child traficking, harvesting organs in mexico, china, etc)

MPN have similar story too but after seeing I didnt show any results in my battle I stopped researching that and refuse to do it in future.

Seeing how forums actively protect / turn blind eye to cheats I came to the conclusion all of the games online are 'rigged' and one should play in a format where EV converges to $ winnings sooner than those crazy Jackpot formats so I could see if getting seriously ****ed over.


Not saying for sure there is connection but now reading into this hearing the same stuff ('they are in every network, every game, having connections in integrity team') I am almost sure we talk about one operation.

We need proper laws. Thats so sad noone pushing that. People steal millions of dollars IN REAL MONEY and theres NO FEAR OF REPERCUSSIONS since the worst can happen is them losing couple buyins. Its real theft.

Guys, I like the fact that there are multiple users involved in this. 2+2 is by far the biggest poker forum.
Discussing this topic and investigating further is a good thing to do, but it surely won't solve the problem. I think it's time take action. I am new on this forum, so I am far from knowing everyome or even knowing who is who.
So here is what I suggest.
What if we build a committee from reputable 2+2 users/admins that will agree to put their time and be dedicated to the cause. They will organize and push further the investigation. They will discuss the action that need to be taken. We can also create other groups let's say from gipsyteam, and those groups should collaborate. What do you think ? Is there any volunteers who will agree to biuld a team, as I said, I am not familiar with this forum