To those asking for a graph...is it just for proof that OP actually played or would their be something visible in the graph that would gives clues to them being/not being a bot? if it's the latter what should others be looking for in those graphs to try and spot other bots?

For the rest of the world, recreational players do not have a hard time to access/play online poker, and yes, those that have quit in the past year are concerned about bots, not about accessibility, trustworthiness or if it is rigged. With all due respect, the market and this bot discussion transcends what a strictly American-centered perspective can make of it.

Think a lot of people disagree with your definition of cheater, but I personally don't. If someone can make a bot that beats players without sharing holecards or other type of colluding, I respect that and understand that it's not that easy. But on the other note, I hate that online poker has come down to this. But it's not like it wasn't clear from the start that this was gonna happen.



PS. **** you punisher, I know you are a ****ing bot.

Yeah he probably did.... like 90% of regs playing ss+.

I am still interested why you think that sites are "looking the other way".

To me, this statement implies that these sites are not taking proactive actions to detect bots although they could reasonably take those steps.

What is it that they should be doing, but don't?

Didn't realize sites were this passive towards botting, if they are not cracking down on bots they should let the players know this. Definitely BS that they are knowingly putting players at a disadvantage like this. Personally I think if they do not plan on seriously cracking down on bots they should explicitly allow them like they allow huds etc. Rec players may embrace bots as long as they were not very expensive, and I could envision this possibly boosting traffic to sites, after all they would make most recs better players! Plus people play scratch off tickets, slots and all sorts of gambling games with worse payouts then bot poker would be. I think it would be kinda of cool to have a really good bot and watch it play some higher buy-in tourneys for me while I watch TV or surf the net. Maybe OP should start his own bot friendly site and sell his software for cheap to encourage new players to join. But of course continually be updating the software to take into account adjustments people may try to make to take advantage of the bots etc. Maybe even have the option to have the bot display what it is thinking, like the range it gives an opponent and percentage of that player having a certain hand, or the numbers involved in making an ICM shove etc. Could be a fun, interesting experience even for a skilled player.

fair enough

interesting thought.. Thank you for responding

Post some sample code from your bot scripts as proof. This whole thread is filled with vagueries that come off as a disgruntled small stakes player who couldnt beat the game and was convinced he was losing to bots, so he just threw together a lot of common sense assumptions about how bots might work. You cant give your name, fine. You cant name the software, fine. So post some evidence of the software in form. Post some sample scripts that you created. Post a screenshot of the bot software but omit the title.

OP is usually:

( ) hanging out with friends, dating girls, having sex, partying

(x) hunting pokemons

whether or not that's true isn't even relevant unless your point is that these bots don't exist, your post comes off as a disgruntled small stakes player who is annoyed someone is claiming to have botted more of a profit than you made last year in 6mo

I did in fact name some of the software I had experience with and posted pieces of my code (albeit older, less sophisticated code). Screenshots and stuff detailing software/code have been edited out or deleted by the mods and I have been instructed not to post such information publicly. You can go back to the first couple of pages to see the mod comments on why I shouldn't post that stuff. If you can convince the mods otherwise, I can post more detailed stuff including the PT integration steps that one of the guys in this thread has been in disbelief about.

Couple of questions similar to this one so I'll try explain my logic. As a more pure thought exercise, bots are best type of customers for many sites. They play a lot of volume, fill up the tables, and pay rake; they wait patiently for deposits/withdrawals, they never complain or pepper support with e-mails, they're quiet, low-key customers who require very little maintenance from the support staff to keep happy. They also make up a significant chunk of most sites' income source. If you owned a business, would you really go out of our way to kick out your dream customers unless your hand was forced by the rest of the patrons?
Think about all of the bot rings or random bots that were exposed during the last few years. How many of them were exposed because players kept pointing them out to support over and over? How many of them were exposed because a site proactively investigated accounts that other players didn't write extensively about?

On a more practical note, in the botting community, most sites, other than Stars, are regarded as bot-friendly in that botters don't really have to worry about getting caught unless they attract a lot of complaints from other players. In terms of planning to escape detection, most threads/chat are concerned with how to appear "normal" on the table to other players, and less so about what kind of steps a particular site might employ to detect prohibited software. In the few months that I've frequented these places, I can remember only a handful of cases where a botter got "caught" *without* player intervention, and it was almost always because they tried to use someone else's info or a fake identity to try to cash out, or because of VPN use. (I think sites have different reasons for monitoring VPN use that's not really related to bots, but they do crack down on those pretty hard) So hundreds of threads on a weekly basis on multiple public botting forums complete with site-specific "how-to" guides, tips, advice, troubleshooting, and room reviews...but sites are unaware of this? Unlikely. Hilariously, one of the more popular plug-n-play bot also offers rakeback affiliate links for new signups with certain sites. No one's hiding. Look at the PartyPoker thread or the 888 thread to see how often regs are noticing bots and how little is being done to prevent them from playing.

To answer what sites could be doing, I think it's actually more simple than many of you think. 90% of bots are still based on screen-scraping and table-mapping techniques. Something as simple as forcing the client to update every 2-3 days with a new default cardback designs coupled with a new default background color might be enough to mess some bots up. Changing the fonts (or sizes) on the table, switching the box where player names are displayed with the box where the stack size is displayed, periodically changing the location on the table where the cards appear to be flopped or dealt, coloring or sizing the the buttons differently, slightly offsetting the angles of the seats, changing the default card-face designs, inverting table chat/ player control divisions, etc. Like doing any of these or a couple of these every few days through a forced client update would make botting a bitch. Pretty much all of these suggestions are graphics-related and wouldn't really need revisions to any other parts of a client. If a site were to be proactive like this, the actual cost would be minimal and probably 90% of bots wouldn't survive. Until of course....the botting community adapted somehow.

Op, I don't believe a lot of the key parts of your story. The only thing I can surmise from all of your points is that you have a good basic knowledge of programming bots.

You rambled on quite a bit about how tough stars is, in a few different posts, and this and that about stars. Then you represent being in the usa, but don't want to give out the state. It just doesn't make any sense. You are alluding in an off handed way that you could try stars if you choose to, but it's too tough , or risky. This just seems like more of your results boasting. Unless of course you want us to believe that setting up a viable account, and playing from the USA is nothing but a minor obstacle.

All my references to Stars were in response to questions on what sites are tougher to bot on and what sites are more lax. I've also prefaced most of my comments on other sites with the disclaimer that my conclusions are being drawn from being around the botting community that chat about a lot of different sites, and not from first-hand experience. I don't think I've ever alluded to feeling confident that I could try Stars if I chose to. I think you may be misunderstanding what I said about the general consensus being Stars is off limits except for the most experienced and technically capable botters. To the contrary, I've actually stated the opposite: that VPNs get cracked down on pretty hard and botters who try cash out with fake info also get caught.

I think the thread is actually getting too long perhaps and people tend to jump from first to last page.

Party and Stars (mentioned a few times by OP) are definitely cracking down on bots and take the issue seriously, which also involves looking at the big picture and the long term perseverance of online poker. Really unsure about the extent of the presence of bots on a site like Unibet, where huds are banned, avatars change SN constantly, thus making it hard/impossible for regs to partake in the bot hunt (OP, know anything about Unibet?). 888 is an absolute joke :

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/28...-bots-1554591/

Bots are continuously reported to 888 support, but they have only banned a fraction of these

I've talked about this quite a bit, e.g. the end of this post.

Think we'll get an appearance from Winning_TD in here (once he's back from Vegas)?

This true? I thought people are saying there a no bots in mtts? Icm and other stuff doesn't make a difference in the gameplay? You must make a different bot to the mtts.

in before " We do not allow bots on our site" or " We take this issue very serious and our security department is working 24/7 to keep games clean.This is only a single case. Do not worry, games are clean 99%"

very interesting thread OP.

it amazes me that people in the botting world willingly help one another create better and better bots. especially since if whatever method they are using is avoiding detection, they wouldnt want others to be able to do the same?

made an account cuz i think i got a good idea who OP is. OP's not as smart as he thinks. Only a couple of regs went mia recently and i got a good hunch who he is. Gonna try to contact a coupe other players to confirm my numbers. Ill make sure this pos gets permabanned from the network. ****ing wow that he cheats and comes on to brag about it. **** you cheater. People like you are whats killing the games

what he says in terms of botting makes sense, so I give him the shadow of a doubt here.

doubtful...WPN_Rep posted a new thread last night and winning_TD reported he was back today, and has replied to other threads. We shall see

replying to this thread has no value for wpn

they structure the entire network around a rake race, it's built for bots yo,

there are several e.euro accounts that run 10-12hr/day on a nocturnal schedule, nothing weird here, just a bunch of ****n opossums grinding beast points

i am the only thinking this is a serious prblem ? RIP POKER