Hey all

https://pokerfuse.com/news/poker-roo...s-allegations/

Seems like Winamax finnally took action, as i been pointet out earlier was very clear Twopandas was a bot, overall its good for online poker, i never thought Winamax was going to take any action, i was even suspecious about it was a player inside Winamax, just to create more rake and keep games running.

So hands in they air for Winamax, i hope they sue thoose 2 players for botting, and we will have some kind of a refund.

What a disgrace. Only under "active monitoring" as they were raking €20k a month so no point in suspending them. Winamax absolutely knew these guys are bots but the rake and liquidity they bring to espresso games are helpful. How many sites have €100 spins running 24/7? Very few.

"he two accused players have been asked to play a session live in their offices."

Lol getting an appropriate sample size would take weeks - total amateur hour over at Winamax.

WMX HQ = botfarm confirmed

"loud" silence of Winamax.

And now a news on highstakesdb

I hope Winamax started to clean out the room from bots, however the hyper HU games still full with cheaters.
The multi users wins every week the grinder promo (le vegetal, Gini2a) with 1k+ games.
And these games also have bots: le vegetal, evrybodylies, _xrabrenca_ and few more.
They are already reported to winamax, and they didn't even answer to these reports.
Winamax also has been reported to ARJEL, because they didn't give a ***, but it seems ARJEL also didn't care, we didn't get any respond from them.
...shame....

How do they cheat in HU games?

Would you not consider setting up a HU bot to be cheating Mike? The only other ways I could think to cheat in HU is to be a super user or to collude/play a ton against a buddy to earn the top rake prizes while making sure you both breakeven at the table. If you trust the other person to split all earnings then I guess it wouldn't matter for both to breakeven.

At high stakes they are using the GTO bots - like the expresso bots - developed especially for HU games.
Besides that at mid stakes 2-3 regular definitely shares his account at least 1 more person/account and they can pump up the volume and win the weakly grinder promo for €275.
These account sharer regs gaming style are very different, eg. 'A player' is passive fishreg, 'B player' is agressive.

And why Winamax didn't see the prohibited software?

OK ill try to explain whats happening on Wina and the pokerclub forum..
as i m french i guess i got it!

So,
first some players complained about some players who seemed to play GTO (they were to play with solvers?!)
then wina said it was cool and that they were watching all..
then a french player from clubpoker community (batmax)analysed a bit their play and showed there was some suspects things going on..
then wina admit that there was maybe stg ( here we start to laugh or to cry )
and decided to suspend for a moment the suspects accounts ( 2panda and an other )
These players ( living in asia?!) have been invited to come to winamax socity in paris to show lively that they are not cheating ....
Then wina said they banned some accounts ( maybe ten) for few days for using unauthorised softwares...

French community looks angry...
And Online poker is disapointing once again ( i have my own prob with coinpoker hand challenge irregularities.. )

about arjel, well i wont lie it was just to tax poker players,
they do nothing about fairness, integrity of the game or anything else...

GL guys,
we ll need some!!

Thanks for info CH3M, im following this thread as im directly affected by this. Keep us updated please. Any input is appreciated.
By the way, are other resticted player nicknames known? Besides twopandas and VictoriaMo

I read the whole thread and just re-read the (4) messages posted by Winamax representatives (guignol aka Aurélien Guiglini) and there is a mention about some players having been suspended for avoiding each others using third party software but I don't think it was related to this bot issue.
As far as I know and understand it, only Twopandas and VictoriaMo have been suspended, so far.
Guignol also says other big regs were being investigated, but again, it's not clear if it's related to this and the new elements brought up by batmax. In any case, there was no mention of any sanction or suspension.
I don't know for the others, but I also remember reading that the other suspected bot that is playing the 3rd shift (when Twopandas and Victoriamo are not playing, I can't recall his moniker) was still playing after the suspension of the others, and at times where no one had ever seen him playing before... So I don't think too much has been done.

MiloYianno

Looks like he's gone haven't seen him 2 days after Victoria/twopandas were frozen. Maybe he changed nickname and took a better time slot tho.


To be fair this guy was still playing 1 or 2 games against VictoriaMo every morning when Victoria was launching his tables.

i have thousands of games played vs victoriamo,ggwpsirbai,mr.playboy(2saintpandas) and twopandas. neither of them were ever in the same game ever. even back then when the highest buyin was 100s they never played the same games. im pretty sure some of them lived together sharing the same i.p or they all made a decision that live bots shouldnt play each other. miloyianno played a different time zone than me. but from what others tell me. he was a cheat also

I would bet money that MiloYianno is not legit.
But wouldn't fell off my chair if he wasn't.

The guy from Winamax said VictoriaMo and twopandas were in different time zone.
I'm pretty sure VictoriaMo is in Bali, or at least in southeast Asia. He actually told it to me in the chat.
I think there's a guy in the evolve stable who actually know him in person btw.

I also played two pandas a couple of times. Also i found it strange that he got tracked incorrect at sharkscope. His graph is free and there are only 3k games open but he didnt set it up like this. Normally sharkscope shows it if you just set it to a particular date. And he surely played 20k + Any answers for that?

But not only 100s were full of bots. I totally agree with fragglerock45 winamax obviously doesnt care that much because they create so much rake.
Just looking at the 25/50 leaderboards makes me sick each day. I wrote them a couple of times that they should make videos of the people who grind this ridicolous volume every day.
Im obviously not saying everyone is a bot who does good volume.
Makeitfall for example came this year 20/2/2018 and he made 47 454 games until now. Everyone who grinds spins with any kind of help knows that this is a ridicolous volume. And its not like they do it one month......... and then have alittle break at least.
I also wrote them a couple of times and never got a response on my messages. Only like 1 or 2 times i got a super small refund from them.
What is the problem to let them film their sessions when they make 16 hours/ day ^^ 30 days!
The problem is Winamax doesnt wanna lose their income, so they do nothing about it.

Thats 373 games dayly without break............

yes Monkeybro,
i understand you video can be a good thing..

But as i filmed myself grinding ( 55+ table opening session ) during the handchallenge at COINPOKER and as they do not consider my video
i wiil say that all online poker sites seems to do not care about anything else than their own interest
even if its unfair or bad for players..

You said you got few refund from wina??!!! well please bro contact french players from clubpoker to tell the whole thing to them;
many of ur broplayers did not received any refund and are complaining about this!

i wish u all the best
in those hard days for all the "online grinders"

CH3

Hey dude,
sure i could contact french community with that, i would like to tell them everything but main problem is the refund you will get for this is usually super low. Tbh i think it was like two times and an amount of 50 euro ^^ and on top they never say anything specific. And if you ask about it they also say they are not allowed to give u any details!

So we never know exactly what happened in the end. I think Winamax case is a bit different from others because its a regulated environment. I agree with you that they only care about own interest so the players have to make clear that they wanna fight against this.
Some aspect could be try to make negative publicity about this for example what joey ingram did with americas cardroom.
Doing alot of research and then after a while make it all public and force them to react. It wont solve everything sure there always will be some new guys with bots but if they are getting banned consistenly they might also lose money in the end and think about this. Right now it still seems like its easy money for bots.

You really have to ask yourself if the bots they have are not owned from the site because at first they would create more traffic and second of all depending which bots they own the games. So even if you try to do something against this you gotta ask yourself if the site is really gonna do something or just pretend it and ban two players therefore.
So the last step would be to leave the site and change to different one again or quit!

Thx to Threadstarter btw i appreciate your work and attitude and gl to all non botter ^^

@concerned pro i had the same feeling at 50s some people clearly avoiding each other it gets kinda obvious when you see them playing 00:00 -05:00. And usually there is less traffic and then they are never together in a game. Its also super easy to see for every employee if they avoid each other or not. Just by checking their game history!

After about a month, Winamax finally broke its silence again with some updates about this case.
Twopandas never replied to Winamax's demands. His account will remain suspended, his BR (or what's left of it on Winamax) is seized. and Winamax claims they will go back to all the challenges he was part of, recompute everything, redistribute the bonuses and "compensate the injured players within 2 weeks". For how much? How it will computed etc.? No details.
VictoriaMo went to the Winamax HQ to play a few sessions for a total of around 400 games, 6-tabling at 100€ / 250€ limits. Their conclusion is that his plays and results during those sessions fit its history and that he is legit as they couldn't measure any deviation. Out of suspicions around him, they decided to still maintain his account suspended but gave him back all his BR (miles included).
Still no reference about MiloYianno or anyone else.

This is a link to the original post from guignol, the Winamax representative, in French, for those interested.

Still a lot of blurry details. And overall, it feels off that VictoriaMo is innocented by Winamax but still suspended (for what it's worth).

this was posted by a reg on the french forum. i agree. victoriamo 100% used gto assistance software. there are very few people who can mimic gto to that deviation, so victoriamo was able to 6-8 table for 8 hours a day, when did he get the time to study, and improve his game??why was he playing gto vs fish? if hes such a crusher of human regs he should at least have a top 5 winrate vs the fish, not makie insane dumb gto plays vs fish, he was playing 360 days a year getting top 2 in tlb ,playing regs nonstop 8 hours that many tables is definitely mentaly fatiguing, the wina admin said himself, "his reaction time was off/slower when he was forced to play live. you should bring transparency to this situation, how much did he deviate in his live games ? how come he never played in the same game as twopandas? i agree with the bottom post, you can hide the tournament #numbers and just put incognito 1 and 2, we demand some accountability, how many times as he cheated other regs by getting top 2 in tlb. i know twopandas and victoriamo placed over me many times in the tlb.

Good evening,

I am a regular of 100 and 250 espresso on Winamax.

Your conclusions and actions taken regarding twopandas suit me. However, there remain several inconsistencies about VictoriaMo that should be clarified as soon as possible.

First, I am very surprised that you may think that the two cases are distinct. Indeed, the two players never played, which tends to prove that they knew each other. VictoriaMo played from 10am to 6pm (he stopped his session at 5:58 pm or 5:59 pm, never after), and twopandas played from 6:05 pm. Every day, without exception. Moreover, as batmax showed, their results converged to a similar value for the GTO.

Regarding the passage in your premises, it is conceivable that after playing a lot of time with a GTO help, VictoriaMo has become able to approach the strategy of his solver himself. This is the only logical explanation I can imagine.



Whether it is able or not, some things remain unexplained or problematic:

1) Why force yourself to play GTO while an exploiting game is more powerful against recreational player? Understand that we are talking about one of the best players in the world, who deliberately chooses to make less money than he can. It's just absurd.

You were talking about a CEV close to 50. For such a good player, how do you explain you seeing so low a result when he never plays twopandas?

2) What became miloyianno ?!

3) His account is suspended, but did you give him the right to open a second one? If not, how do you intend to verify that it complies with what has been agreed?

4) What tools do you plan to put in place to regulate the bots on your room in the future?

5) I would like a public rendition of all the hands played by VictoriaMo during this session, and the details of your analyzes. This point seems essential to me in a concern for transparency. On the other hand, if you feel that you have correctly analyzed your sessions, there should be no problem in seeing your hands. Indeed, we are not likely to play against him again in the future, and he has already been able to recover the money on his account. In order not to hurt his opponents who would like to keep the roll of these hands confidential, you could replace all their nicknames by "incognito 1" and "incognito 2". Nicks do not matter for the analysis anyway since it plays GTO against all profiles.



Regarding the nickname VictoriaMo, for playing most players this month, I think the only possible candidate is Mbappe77400. This is the only excellent unknown player I met on these terms, and able to play 6 tables. I do not see any other candidate.

Just playing devil's advocate here - and I'm not as familiar with this case as you, so apologies ahead of time if I misunderstand something. But I think this is a v interesting situation and wanted to chime in with an alternative view:

Why can't he be one of those very few people? I mean, by definition of this investigation, if he is innocent he will be one of the very best at this game. That he is an outlier doesn't really prove anything.


I think that answers your own question. The way to play great GTO 6-8 tables, 8 hours a day, is because he does not try to deviate.


6-8 hours a day of play, 2-3 hours a day of study/review? Maybe a custom designed system that runs through all his decisions post-match, shows where he deviated, collates it into a form of systematic review to optimize his post-match review time?

I don't think it's that far fetched with this much money on the line. I played SNGs professionally I wrote custom tools that did something not too dissimilar, automatically finding similar spots and automatically send them all over SNG Wizard to find mistakes. I didn't play at his level (in terms of time and far from his skill), but I did probably 5 hours of play, 2 hours of review a day; wouldn't surprise me someone at the absolute top of the game did the same. And with this much money on the line, a sophisticated post-match GTO review too seems quite plausible.

I would think without certain bounds, this is acceptable. He's under an increased stress situation, playing in a different environment, presumably different seat/desk, maybe different computer/keyboard/mouse.


I think this is perhaps the most troubling aspect for me. It suggests the two soft-colluded on games they selected; in and of itself, there's nothing wrong with that; but if twopandas has now been found "guilty" I guess there is some guilt by association, if there two have a personal relationship like this.

A useful addition. Winamax confirmed that VictoriaMo played under the nickname "Mbappe77400" while he was in their HQ.
Several players on Club Poker claim they played against him and that he was making very obvious mistakes / clear deviations from GTO plays. They therefore contest that his plays while he was at the Winamax HQ were in line with his usual ones.

my thoughts are :
the 3 scariest things for me was

1. he deviated from time clicking decisions just after 400 games. imagine playing 275-375 games every single day 8 hours a day for 2 years straight, i would assume his decision making in a live setting for 2 years would be way slower. which would prove to me he uses assistance at least in some spots. ( for people that dont play spins, playing that high a volume 99% of days for the past 2 years , and on top of that he would have to be studying gto for at least 2 hours a day,its very difficult to do!!, for me its mentally and physically fatiguing, ( i dont use any drugs though, maybe he uses some boosters ) .

2. i study pio and other gto softwares, im pretty sure lots of high level players that play HU or spins can play close to gto for a 400 game sample, personally for me if i add more tables like vicmo does 6-8 tables my decision making goes wayyy slower and my gto accuracy goes way down,

3. i hope winamax asked him why he never played in the same games together as the people accused of being bots, from what my friends tell me, he has never been in the same game with twopandas, ggwpsirbai,mr.playboy, and miloyianno. all suspected bot users. how is it possible he dodges all those people in a small winamax player pool ?? granted twopandas and milo play different hours but to perfectly time your logoff when they login, you would have to at least know the people( or have them in your friend list on wina...) which is suspect in itself. if i were to put a percent that he uses gto assistance software, i would put it in at least 98%, theres people far better than me who play HU deep and HU hypers that tell me its very difficult (possible) but difficult for a spin player to mimic gto for 8 hours a day 6-8 tabling for 2 years in a row , and than study 2-3 hours a day after those mentaly fatiguing sessions, who knows .... , glgl to all the human regs out there .

Victoria ain't legit.
MiloYianno probably not legit.
But they were playing 1 or 2 games together every mornings around 10am.

At the end I was spamming the search fonction around 10am to see when Victoria was connected.