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Old 08-20-2015, 08:55 AM   #2376
JonIrenicus
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by MX210 View Post
These notecaddy definition makers need to be sent out of business. Nothing annoys me than seeing guys who couldn't beat microstake, actually making a living and insulting people on the internet because they managed to earn a lot on definitions that are very easy to do.

Hopefully everyone does the same and we level this down to only a few pro-programmers with illegal stats.
creating notecaddy stats is not illegal atm.
If a creator like this is not able to beat microstakes himself, then it would suggest that what he is creating is not that strong really.

As for enforcing, the line in the sand limited to badges and only hud with numeric values seems enforceable to me and a good place to draw the line.
But some numeric hud values being ok while others not ok, that seems impossible to enforce.
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Old 08-20-2015, 08:56 AM   #2377
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

So Notecaddy is ****ed, Jivaro Premium is ****ed, HEM autorate is ****ed, but Russian gangsters running bot farms with seating scripts, datamined hands and secret advice tools like Skier's are fine. Poker is saved!
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Old 08-20-2015, 09:14 AM   #2378
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by MX210 View Post
I for one will be emailing stars every single youtube video/poker screenshot/desktop screenshot of poker players that i find with any proof that they are using forbidden materials.

These notecaddy definition makers need to be sent out of business. Nothing annoys me than seeing guys who couldn't beat microstake, actually making a living and insulting people on the internet because they managed to earn a lot on definitions that are very easy to do.

Hopefully everyone does the same and we level this down to only a few pro-programmers with illegal stats.
NoteCaddy is going to comply with the rules, so you're not well informed if you think we plan on selling packages to stars players which break the rules.

Sorry that some people can make a living from creating software.. It doesn't mean we can't beat microstakes though, not sure where you got that idea. If you're referring to me in your post, I did not insult anybody intentionally. If I did, it was not my intention and I apologize.

What is going stop people from hiring a developer to create things which don't comply with the new rules? That's what you should be worried about in my opinion. You're going to play against people who do this, and I don't see how Stars will be able to enforce it.
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Old 08-20-2015, 09:24 AM   #2379
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by ArtyMcFly View Post
So Notecaddy is ****ed
You may be getting ahead of yourself on that one. This is a temporary setback but I've spent the last 5.5 years adding value for paying customers and I am not about to let amaya take me to hell with them without a fight. I played by their rules and will continue to do so, of course

Last edited by SretiCentV; 08-20-2015 at 09:32 AM.
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Old 08-20-2015, 09:38 AM   #2380
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

@SretiCentV
I assume this is not confidential so can you tell us if you've been contacted by PS to change specific stuff about NC so that it complies with new rules?
Because so far we're discussing that pdf file as that was a final decision not just a rumor.

Also, removing graphs and badges doesn't mean NC is ****ed at all.
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Old 08-20-2015, 09:47 AM   #2381
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by JonIrenicus View Post
@SretiCentV
I assume this is not confidential so can you tell us if you've been contacted by PS to change specific stuff about NC so that it complies with new rules?
Because so far we're discussing that pdf file as that was a final decision not just a rumor.

Also, removing graphs and badges doesn't mean NC is ****ed at all.
I can confirm that PS sent out an email with the document linked to in this thread saying that the revisions in the document are planned to be effective as of Sept 28.
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Old 08-20-2015, 09:55 AM   #2382
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by JonIrenicus View Post
@SretiCentV
I assume this is not confidential so can you tell us if you've been contacted by PS to change specific stuff about NC so that it complies with new rules?
Because so far we're discussing that pdf file as that was a final decision not just a rumor.
They didn't contact me directly. I got the pdf file forwarded. We are still trying to get some clarifications from pokerstars

Quote:
Also, removing graphs and badges doesn't mean NC is ****ed at all.
Definitely all the same information can be conveyed in a form that is compliant with the new rules. It's just that the graphs and badges were very accessible for mass tabling.

I encourage everyone to try out other sites. Why did pokerstars become the number one site? Can anyone who has been paying attention since the Amaya acquisition say these reasons are still valid?
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Old 08-20-2015, 10:00 AM   #2383
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

There are no plans to deal with scripters ever, i guess. I don't see why that and bots are not priority number 1.

You hear people talking about scripting on Twitch all the time, so it's not like recreational players are going to remain oblivious forever. That cannot be good for Stars long term because they don't make money from withdrawers.
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Old 08-20-2015, 10:14 AM   #2384
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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There are no plans to deal with scripters ever, i guess. I don't see why that and bots are not priority number 1.

You hear people talking about scripting on Twitch all the time, so it's not like recreational players are going to remain oblivious forever. That cannot be good for Stars long term because they don't make money from withdrawers.
Bots and scripts are probably the number 1 & 2 biggest concerns players have but it seems that as they are either unable or unwilling to do anything about them they've decided to go for easier targets that they hope will distract people from those issues.
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Old 08-20-2015, 10:17 AM   #2385
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by SretiCentV View Post
They didn't contact me directly. I got the pdf file forwarded. We are still trying to get some clarifications from pokerstars



Definitely all the same information can be conveyed in a form that is compliant with the new rules. It's just that the graphs and badges were very accessible for mass tabling.

I encourage everyone to try out other sites. Why did pokerstars become the number one site? Can anyone who has been paying attention since the Amaya acquisition say these reasons are still valid?
Send people to sites with 10x the amount of bots and colluders so that you can keep earning and not go back to 25nl?

Nice business ethics you got there.

ps: other sites have just as much problems with seating scripts. Stars has more players so you've got a better chance to get a fish there without a script.
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Old 08-20-2015, 10:39 AM   #2386
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

For HUD guys (incl NC) this is the key bit

Quote:
HUDs may not:
• Have statistics which are filtered based on card values. For example, AGGRESSION
FREQUENCY is fine, AGGRESSION FREQUENCY ON FLUSH DRAW BOARDS is not.
• Dynamically change which statistics are shown after the cards are dealt. For example,
displaying FOLD TO CBET but only after a flop is seen is prohibited.
Dynamically change which statistics are shown based on player/opponent tendencies. For example, displaying FOLD TO CBET but only for players that have high folds to continuation bets is prohibited.
Rate, label, categorise or stereotype players based on their tendencies
• Display graphical representations of more than one numerical datapoint. For example, bet size / hand strength scatter plots are prohibited but a 0-100 “temperature gauge”
representation of a player’s VPIP is permitted.
Sweet. Non dynamic HUDs. Is there a single feature of NoteCaddy edge left standing?
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Old 08-20-2015, 10:46 AM   #2387
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richas View Post
For HUD guys (incl NC) this is the key bit



Sweet. Non dynamic HUDs. Is there a single feature of NoteCaddy edge left standing?
If you're referring to badges as being dynamic, then yeah there are still other features of NoteCaddy Edge, like all sorts of statistics which aren't available in HM2. New features of NoteCaddy are coming too which will comply with the rules fully.

Popups like this are still standing (as examples):



and this:


Last edited by nostrakhan; 08-20-2015 at 10:51 AM.
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Old 08-20-2015, 11:40 AM   #2388
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Dynamically change which statistics are shown based on player/opponent tendencies. For example, displaying FOLD TO CBET but only for players that have high folds to continuation bets is prohibited.

They could just create some kind popup with all the badges in "numerical" form. The ones that are at certain exploitable ranges could be highlighted by certain color codes. The others ones greyed out.

Ex. Fold to Cbet is at x>% it it highlighted in fluorescent green. Below x<% it's greyed out and barely visible.

This is just off the top of my head and there are probably slightly more efficient ways to do it within the "new" rules. Sure it's not as pretty or as efficient as those badges might have been but it still can be replicated similarly in the HuD in numerical form.
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Old 08-20-2015, 11:55 AM   #2389
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by nostrakhan View Post
What is going stop people from hiring a developer to create things which don't comply with the new rules? That's what you should be worried about in my opinion. You're going to play against people who do this, and I don't see how Stars will be able to enforce it.
Most of the stuff is difficult to enforce but the possible forfeiture of account and funds will be a deterrent to stop many from attempting to break the rules.

Eventually I feel that most sites will probably move to anonymous or frequent screen name changes to try and counter the effects that advanced software that relies on data has on their games. A much lower amount of data will decrease the overall effectiveness of a lot of the software out there.

That brings an additional problem initially with the current rake conditions out there and removed game selection but this might be countered by an overall larger disparity in skill level between various players now that the 3rd party software has been removed or limited. It could possibly lead to a healthier overall ecosystem with more weaker players going on heaters and jumping up stakes rather than the current market where they are easily targeted and exploited by the software.

Speculative I know but obviously PokerStars was not going to announce a drastic change like "moving to anonymous tables" in response to this thread.
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Old 08-20-2015, 12:03 PM   #2390
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by cneuy3 View Post
Most of the stuff is difficult to enforce but the possible forfeiture of account and funds will be a deterrent to stop many from attempting to break the rules.
You can catch data miners just as easily as you could catch some rogue software. Maybe even more easily since there are massive amounts of people with the same rdbms with the same password on the same port with a ton of evidence implicating themselves.

I believe many would agree that this has not been an effective deterrent
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Old 08-20-2015, 12:51 PM   #2391
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by nostrakhan View Post
If you're referring to badges as being dynamic, then yeah there are still other features of NoteCaddy Edge, like all sorts of statistics which aren't available in HM2. New features of NoteCaddy are coming too which will comply with the rules fully.

Popups like this are still standing ..
Ohh restricting all popups that players can manually select was a bit of a stretch. My reading is the popup format is same for all players so would need to display all the stats, colour coding in a hidden table is very different to what is available now and the whizzy graph stuff is out.

Checking some figures for a specific decision is very different to dynamic prompts on screen all the time.

Plus of course the direction of travel is set, if there is innovation that provides too big an advantage but skates inside the rules, well stars can change the rules. They shafted Skier so shafting some new fancy semi autoated pop up thingameejig is now easy stuff.
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Old 08-20-2015, 01:08 PM   #2392
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Sweet. NoteCaddy will still be working exactly the same as before for me. Is this the end of Richas and co complaining?
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Old 08-20-2015, 01:09 PM   #2393
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

IMO also all script and software developing tools should be banned from running in the background. Send a request to support when programmers want to developing something new. No more tinkering without PS knowing about it.
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Old 08-20-2015, 03:51 PM   #2394
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Sweet. NoteCaddy will still be working exactly the same as before for me. Is this the end of Richas and co complaining?
No.

I want the regulators to enforce and I want third party s/w suppliers to be licenced, to have them actively declare that they are running to clients so that we can have choice between sites based upon what s/w they allow.

Me I want some sites to be able to have full on bells and whistles HUDs with add ons galore, some that set rules like these and some that ban them either for all tables or some. CHOICE.

FYI I think NoteCaddy is a powerful and potentially useful tool for recs as well as regs - OK I peronally hate all the add ons but that's not the same as wanting a universal ban, I want CHOICE and full disclosure by the sites, by the suppliers and to other players - telling them that thei opponents are running XYZ software.

Oh yeah then we have the need to police data mining - again deliverable by regulating HUD suppliers.

Oh yeah, seat scripts and the lovely Spin Wiz collusion aid, these rules don't mention that at all.

I don't expect to run out of stuff to moan about any time soon, a bit of progress on third party software rules at two sites is nice but there are still bots, collusion and other cheating issues unfair currency charges, firms stealing money from dormant accounts, how firms (don't) compensate cheated players, diclosure on cheating events, the way that B2B firms escape responsibility for player fund protection and social responsibility .

By the time that is sorted there will likely be some new tax thing or something else.
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Old 08-20-2015, 04:50 PM   #2395
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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By the time that is sorted there will likely be some new tax thing or something else.
Why? I'm don' get it... probably due to my poor english.
Are you saying that in the future new (higher taxes) will be declared?
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Old 08-20-2015, 05:10 PM   #2396
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Oh yeah, seat scripts and the lovely Spin Wiz collusion aid, these rules don't mention that at all.
What about the mention of a developer-compiled list of players? Isn't that aimed at Sharkystrator/Spinwiz?
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Old 08-20-2015, 05:20 PM   #2397
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by MX210 View Post
I for one will be emailing stars every single youtube video/poker screenshot/desktop screenshot of poker players that i find with any proof that they are using forbidden materials.

These notecaddy definition makers need to be sent out of business. Nothing annoys me than seeing guys who couldn't beat microstake, actually making a living and insulting people on the internet because they managed to earn a lot on definitions that are very easy to do.

Hopefully everyone does the same and we level this down to only a few pro-programmers with illegal stats.
+1
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Old 08-20-2015, 05:23 PM   #2398
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by SretiCentV View Post
You may be getting ahead of yourself on that one. This is a temporary setback but I've spent the last 5.5 years adding value for paying customers and I am not about to let amaya take me to hell with them without a fight. I played by their rules and will continue to do so, of course
I hope you lose the fight
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Old 08-20-2015, 06:52 PM   #2399
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Nothing has changed guys. Pokerstars document is absurd. Nothing has changed! If you think otherwise you have no idea about any of this. Pokerstars are clearly complete idiots.
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Old 08-21-2015, 12:41 AM   #2400
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Yeah how is this document more complete or different from the 1s post? its still vague, they took all this this time to come up with this crappy document? there some examples in it but no clear hard lines, and no list of current software that is (not) allowed.
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