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Old 08-04-2015, 04:04 PM   #2326
bhoylegend
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by oNste View Post
Mind if i ask you to explain a bit more about it being "hugely inferior"? Not a snarky post either haha im interested after being sent that questionable "article" about jivaro

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There are around 300 different statistics used in online poker, but through careful analysis and discussions with top level professionals the Jivaro team has filtered out what are believed to be the most important stats.
That's their marketing angle but what it is essentially saying is that they don't have the processing power (Ability?) to develop the ream of stats that HEM/PT have available to their customers. Stats so powerful that Pokerstars are now leaning in the direction of limiting their power (They haven't done so yet though and I still doubt they will).

I paid $69.99 or something like that for my HUD (It now lies unused gather dust but that is nothing to do with the software or what it can do more my mental deficiencies in every walk of life) about 4 years ago. For a much larger, better programme, I have paid a lot less per month than the $5.99 a month that Jivaro are going to be sticking the elbow into people for.

I mean Jivaro are clever, they've marketed things well, and they have got most of the top streamers using their product even if one of them still uses PT4 in addition to it because it doesn't carry enough stats.

I don't see how they can justify that price for what they are selling.
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Old 08-04-2015, 04:31 PM   #2327
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Client keeps crashing. "doesnt respond" My pc is topnotch. Everything works perfectly. Tried installing with vscanner of.
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Old 08-09-2015, 08:00 PM   #2328
31Alpha
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

just have to say I love this comment from PS Kieth with regards to PS removing the 'mobile' icon...

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Originally Posted by PokerStars Keith View Post
Your interest in the feature is noted - thanks to all for posting.

We originally introduced the feature to promote the fact that we have mobile clients. Now that most players know about our support for smartphones/tablets and our mobile client usage is healthy and growing, it is no longer needed for the purpose of raising awareness.

In the meantime, we have determined that it provides an unfair advantage for experienced players to more easily identify and target inexperienced players, so we are removing the feature. Sorry, folks.
of course no 3rd party does this BETTER than the mobile icon did....
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Old 08-12-2015, 06:30 AM   #2329
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by paletokio View Post
You can see the limitation of this hud from the picture. It uses the same "footprint" as Pokerstars so the top two lines will be small when multitabling. And there are only three stats shown at a time. It looks like you can't have vpip/pfr/afq and 3b,f3b and st shown at the same time. I like to see st from co, btn and sb shown separately anyway. I think it's back to the drawing board for Jivaro.
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Old 08-13-2015, 07:00 AM   #2330
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

I'm not sure if someone already mentioned this. But i have never understood the reasoning to show mucked hole cards in the handhistories. It's not the case in live poker and it makes no sense. The swedish site svenskaspel doesn't show mucked cards and that protects rec players in a healthy way, it also increase the amount of table talk, which also makes the experience more pleasant for fun players. And it also reducing the value of data mining.
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Old 08-13-2015, 08:40 AM   #2331
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by Fred9 View Post
I'm not sure if someone already mentioned this. But i have never understood the reasoning to show mucked hole cards in the handhistories. It's not the case in live poker and it makes no sense. The swedish site svenskaspel doesn't show mucked cards and that protects rec players in a healthy way, it also increase the amount of table talk, which also makes the experience more pleasant for fun players. And it also reducing the value of data mining.
Also make it more difficult for people to spot possible soft play/collusion imo.
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Old 08-13-2015, 09:49 AM   #2332
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by Fred9 View Post
I'm not sure if someone already mentioned this. But i have never understood the reasoning to show mucked hole cards in the handhistories. It's not the case in live poker and it makes no sense. The swedish site svenskaspel doesn't show mucked cards and that protects rec players in a healthy way, it also increase the amount of table talk, which also makes the experience more pleasant for fun players. And it also reducing the value of data mining.
There is a rule in live poker (at least at every place I've played at, which admittedly isn't many) where any player that was dealt into a hand may ask the dealer to reveal another players hand if it is still live at the showdown. This is likely just PS' way of enabling this rule.
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Old 08-13-2015, 09:53 AM   #2333
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred9 View Post
I'm not sure if someone already mentioned this. But i have never understood the reasoning to show mucked hole cards in the handhistories. It's not the case in live poker and it makes no sense. The swedish site svenskaspel doesn't show mucked cards and that protects rec players in a healthy way, it also increase the amount of table talk, which also makes the experience more pleasant for fun players. And it also reducing the value of data mining.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HuDonkHu View Post
Also make it more difficult for people to spot possible soft play/collusion imo.
That's correct. In most live poker rooms you can ask the dealer to turn over mucked cards if you suspect foul play, so this is the online equivalent of that.

As for data mining, only players dealt into the hand see the information, and it only happens in showdown scenarios, so the volume of information that can be gathered is rather slim.
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Old 08-13-2015, 09:54 AM   #2334
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by krazykarter View Post
There is a rule in live poker (at least at every place I've played at, which admittedly isn't many) where any player that was dealt into a hand may ask the dealer to reveal another players hand if it is still live at the showdown. This is likely just PS' way of enabling this rule.
Beat me to it!
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Old 08-13-2015, 10:21 AM   #2335
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by PokerStars Keith View Post
Beat me to it!
You're getting slow Keith, gotta pick up your game
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Old 08-13-2015, 01:23 PM   #2336
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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We will give you a period of 10 days for you to discuss and share opinions before we make a final decision.
Has there been a decision yet ?
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Old 08-13-2015, 01:40 PM   #2337
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by centebakkie View Post
Has there been a decision yet ?
PokerStars Steve announced a decision about a month ago, which can be read here:

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...postcount=2075
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Old 08-13-2015, 02:36 PM   #2338
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Thank you Keith
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Old 08-14-2015, 02:56 AM   #2339
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by PokerStars Keith View Post
PokerStars Steve announced a decision about a month ago, which can be read here:

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...postcount=2075

"After thorough consideration of the input here and a lengthy internal discussion, we’ve decided to move forward in principle with the changes proposed in the OP."

"move forward in principle" isn't very specific. Can we have something a bit clearer please ?
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Old 08-14-2015, 04:46 AM   #2340
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by PokerStars Steve View Post
Apologies! This is the section that should be in italics:

1. Any tool or reference material that offers commentary or advice that goes beyond a basic level, such as stack-size-based starting hand tables, decision trees or heads-up displays that dynamically change based on player action or card values.
I think you mentioned in your latest post that you were going to implement this "new" change effective immediately yet you needed to iron out the wording on it. I just looked over the "terms and conditions" and I fail to see any change to it. Maybe I'm missing it somewhere though.

Also, any update on the additional changes you are planning and what sort of time frame we should expect for some of those additional changes to go into effect?

Such an important issue and your most recent post is rather vague. Considering the time frame, going on almost three months now, I'd expect you'd have a clearer picture by now. Update, please.
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Old 08-16-2015, 05:35 AM   #2341
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by nostrakhan View Post
What is a "basic level"? The examples he gives do not apply to NoteCaddy "such as stack-size-based starting hand tables, decision trees or heads-up displays that dynamically change based on player action or card values."
Earlier in the thread I pointed out that the examples were being read as limiting the scope of the rule rather than being read as simple examples. When a law says "It's illegal to kill people, for example shooting them." the example doesn't mean that knifing people is ok.

If the rule was really intended to be that narrow they would just skip the first part of the sentence and say "Stack-size-based starting hand tables, decision trees or heads-up displays that dynamically change based on player action or card values are hereby banned".

I assume that's part of what they were talking about with needing to tweak the wording.

If you say Notecaddy will bring out a compliant version once the rules are clarified I'm sure that's correct.

As for myself, this process is running much too slowly and I have moved most of my action to Unibet.
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Old 08-16-2015, 08:31 PM   #2342
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by PokerStars Steve View Post
After thorough consideration of the input here and a lengthy internal discussion, we’ve decided to move forward in principle with the changes proposed in the OP. We still have some decisions to make regarding final wording and also to make sure we are comfortable with our detection and enforcement capability. In the meantime we will be in touch with some software developers regarding their existing applications to clarify which features might violate the upcoming rules so that they will have time to make the appropriate changes.

There is one immediate change to announce. The catalyst for this conversation was a particular piece of software that efficiently delivers relevant play recommendation charts for HUSNG. Effective immediately, we are ruling that this software can no longer be used while the PokerStars client is open.

In the past we had always allowed charts to be used for reference during play. A primary reason was that a player could simply print out a chart and we would not be able to detect it. Another was that the charts in use were limited in their impact on the game. Detailed charts that were complex enough to provide advice useful enough to be competitive against capable players were very limited in the breadth of situations covered, such as push-fold nash charts for HU play. Any charts covering the game more comprehensively, such as hand grouping charts with basic strategy, were not complex enough to cause an issue for game integrity.

This new software framework could be used to replicate the utility of a complex bot in a chart format. It has greatly advanced the efficiency of chart retrieval and presentation to the point where we must take action. While there will be challenges with enforcement, we believe the cost of leaving this software allowable is too high.

I want to make completely clear that we are headed firmly toward further restrictions on 3rd party software in the future. There is a meaningful probability that within the next year or two our policies will be significantly more restrictive than even the proposal in the OP. Our intent is to implement change gradually over time, ensuring that our internal detection and enforcement capabilities are able to keep up with the rules and that the community has adequate time to adjust.

I do not have anything to share about how far we might go in the future in our restriction of 3rd party software. We will continue to consider and evaluate additional information and input prior to making each and every decision.

Thanks to all who provided their thoughts and input on this topic.
100 % support - thx
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Old 08-18-2015, 06:44 PM   #2343
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by PokerStars Steve View Post
After thorough consideration of the input here and a lengthy internal discussion, we’ve decided to move forward in principle with the changes proposed in the OP. We still have some decisions to make regarding final wording and also to make sure we are comfortable with our detection and enforcement capability.

There is one immediate change to announce. The catalyst for this conversation was a particular piece of software that efficiently delivers relevant play recommendation charts for HUSNG. Effective immediately, we are ruling that this software can no longer be used while the PokerStars client is open.
have there been official updates/changes to the rules/TOS? because I got linked some PDF that would suggest so, but this^ was the last i heard itt.
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Old 08-19-2015, 02:45 PM   #2344
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by TooCuriousso1 View Post
have there been official updates/changes to the rules/TOS? because I got linked some PDF that would suggest so, but this^ was the last i heard itt.
+1, pdf file circulating around!
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Old 08-19-2015, 04:00 PM   #2345
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

stars **** every soft but basic huds, incl table scanner,s advanced hud stats atetccetc oh and **** zoom
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Old 08-19-2015, 04:30 PM   #2346
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

I wonder how they plan to enforce that. If advanced HUDs which have badges and graphs are going to be considered illegal, don't you think people will have their own, not so widely known commercial software?

I think it's a terrible decision by stars if they do follow through with that. I'm not just saying that because it would hurt my business (although surely it will). If I was not from USA and was playing at Stars, I'd surely be moving to a different site where at least I can feel like I have more of a level playing field.

I guess we'll see how it plays out. Maybe it will be better for the long run of poker if they can actually enforce these rules. It'd be in the back of my mind that I'm playing against some people who are using more advanced software than I'd be allowed to though.
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Old 08-19-2015, 05:36 PM   #2347
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Can someone link me to the PDF in private?

Last edited by 4-Star General; 08-19-2015 at 05:52 PM.
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Old 08-19-2015, 06:46 PM   #2348
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by 4-Star General View Post
Can someone link me to the PDF in private?
or in public.

I would love to see it, and it's provenance, before my my meeting with the UKGC on third party software and other (mostly cheating) issues.
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Old 08-19-2015, 07:23 PM   #2349
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by nostrakhan View Post
If advanced HUDs which have badges and graphs are going to be considered illegal.
they are taking out badges and graphs only or notecaddy altogether?
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Old 08-19-2015, 10:35 PM   #2350
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by TooCuriousso1 View Post
have there been official updates/changes to the rules/TOS? because I got linked some PDF that would suggest so, but this^ was the last i heard itt.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mckrogh View Post
+1, pdf file circulating around!
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4-Star General View Post
Can someone link me to the PDF in private?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richas View Post
or in public.

I would love to see it, and it's provenance, before my my meeting with the UKGC on third party software and other (mostly cheating) issues.

I just was linked to this: https://www.pokerstars.uk/assets/com...ence-guide.pdf

I know not if it is the PDF talked about itt, or if it is entirely legit - but being on the official domain suggests it probably is. You may need to edit the URL if Stars redirects you to your regions local homepage (fix this, ffs!)
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