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Old 07-20-2015, 12:50 AM   #2276
TapDancingSquid
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

@ PokerStars Steve


Also, what about other high stakes HUSNG players using a software to automate their preflop decisions. What actions if any will you be taking against them and their program?
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Old 07-20-2015, 02:23 AM   #2277
ArtyMcFly
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

"Sponsored Team Pros use bots" is a scandalous NVG thread just waiting to happen. I think the story is predicted to break in October 2015, but you can never really trust the prophesies of doom in the Amayan Calendar.
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Old 07-20-2015, 04:02 AM   #2278
Ilya N
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

do you think they should start banning players joining skype groups to talk strategy? this is also a form of collusion although it's more of a soft one.

what about hot-keys and all the software like table-ninja which makes you look more like a bot?
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Old 07-20-2015, 04:55 AM   #2279
dizeerascal
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

I can't even tell which posts are serious anymore
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Old 07-20-2015, 11:02 AM   #2280
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilya N View Post
do you think they should start banning players joining skype groups to talk strategy? this is also a form of collusion although it's more of a soft one.

what about hot-keys and all the software like table-ninja which makes you look more like a bot?
In an ideal world people wouldn't be allowed to use Skype groups while the client was open, I've been in groups where people have asked for real time help with hands, in one game I remember well I stacked someone who told me what they had even though it meant I was behind because it's what I would've done had I not known.

That was micro limit FT game. More serious stuff happens at higher levels via Skype for sure.
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Old 07-20-2015, 11:21 AM   #2281
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by bhoylegend View Post
In an ideal world people wouldn't be allowed to use Skype groups while the client was open, I've been in groups where people have asked for real time help with hands, in one game I remember well I stacked someone who told me what they had even though it meant I was behind because it's what I would've done had I not known.

That was micro limit FT game. More serious stuff happens at higher levels via Skype for sure.

I expect there is collusion between friends on the same tables.
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Old 07-20-2015, 11:25 AM   #2282
borgsex
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Sorry if this has been asked before (it's a huge thread).

Pokerstars gave 10 days for discussion before the final decision was made. This was over a month ago. Was a decision made? Has anything been implemented?
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Old 07-20-2015, 12:44 PM   #2283
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by bhoylegend View Post
In an ideal world people wouldn't be allowed to use Skype groups while the client was open, I've been in groups where people have asked for real time help with hands, in one game I remember well I stacked someone who told me what they had even though it meant I was behind because it's what I would've done had I not known.

That was micro limit FT game. More serious stuff happens at higher levels via Skype for sure.
I think it's pretty close. I've done some potentially questionable stuff (which I think is the right side of the line):
  • Asking for reads on an opponent while at their table
  • Asking for a link to basic push/fold charts
  • Disclosing cards - but only after the hand in which they were dealt was over

Fortunately I think most skype groups are regulated by the members' sense of ethics. Remember, you can't really say anything that's outside the most stringent individual ethical code.
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Old 07-20-2015, 12:51 PM   #2284
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by borgsex View Post
Sorry if this has been asked before (it's a huge thread).

Pokerstars gave 10 days for discussion before the final decision was made. This was over a month ago. Was a decision made? Has anything been implemented?

They banned the chart retrieval software which was beating the husng cartels.
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Old 07-20-2015, 09:13 PM   #2285
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

This isn't completely true though Nelly.

There is still a group of at least three 5s/1k regs still using a software. They only banned specifically skier's program not others.
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Old 07-21-2015, 02:07 PM   #2286
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by TapDancingSquid View Post
This isn't completely true though Nelly.

There is still a group of at least three 5s/1k regs still using a software. They only banned specifically skier's program not others.
Feel like this is probably directed at me. And I know certain people have speculated towards me/what I do, so I'll just respond.
I use static starting hand charts. I don't have some sophisticated, private, or secret/unknown program.
Every "tool" I use is available to everyone and is currently fine under TOS.

I'd like to reiterate banning starting hand charts is so unbelievably dumb.

Honestly, just take a step back here and think about this. A Hud/tracker--that important all HH and spits out the frequencies of opponents in every imaginable situation/line is ok. A software that records opponents timing frequencies and gives info on patterns of their timing is ok. But starting hand charts aren't? Not only that, it's not enforceable!

I would wager that most people (I think this is a high # anyways in HUSNG) who have some kind of charts that are of value and still operable/usable on a side computer, will indeed continue to use them.
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Old 07-21-2015, 02:18 PM   #2287
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

reading the summery like that makes online HUSNGs look so ridiculously silly it's just funny 150pages of discussion for that
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Old 07-21-2015, 02:25 PM   #2288
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by TooCuriousso1 View Post
I'd like to reiterate banning starting hand charts is so unbelievably dumb.

Honestly, just take a step back here and think about this. A Hud/tracker--that important all HH and spits out the frequencies of opponents in every imaginable situation/line is ok. A software that records opponents timing frequencies and gives info on patterns of their timing is ok. But starting hand charts aren't? Not only that, it's not enforceable!
+1
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Old 07-21-2015, 04:58 PM   #2289
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by TooCuriousso1 View Post
Feel like this is probably directed at me. And I know certain people have speculated towards me/what I do, so I'll just respond.
I use static starting hand charts. I don't have some sophisticated, private, or secret/unknown program.
Every "tool" I use is available to everyone and is currently fine under TOS.

I'd like to reiterate banning starting hand charts is so unbelievably dumb.

Honestly, just take a step back here and think about this. A Hud/tracker--that important all HH and spits out the frequencies of opponents in every imaginable situation/line is ok. A software that records opponents timing frequencies and gives info on patterns of their timing is ok. But starting hand charts aren't? Not only that, it's not enforceable!

I would wager that most people (I think this is a high # anyways in HUSNG) who have some kind of charts that are of value and still operable/usable on a side computer, will indeed continue to use them.
do timings tells really work, I mean for them to work I would have to be playing only one table, and doing nothing else on my computer.

the vast majority of the time when I am playing I have more then one table going and a dick head who skypes me on purpose when they know I am grinding to distract me.

Normally the timing tells are either A clicking off skype or B another table/ tables and now I back. Plus with poker stars lag affecting random people or the whole server etc, I mean I am not saying dont take timing in to consideration but If people are making decisions bas3ed on timing tells, against me its going to achieve the same affect of flipping a coin pretty much.
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Old 07-21-2015, 08:38 PM   #2290
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by LukeSilver View Post
do timings tells really work, I mean for them to work I would have to be playing only one table, and doing nothing else on my computer.

the vast majority of the time when I am playing I have more then one table going and a dick head who skypes me on purpose when they know I am grinding to distract me.

Normally the timing tells are either A clicking off skype or B another table/ tables and now I back. Plus with poker stars lag affecting random people or the whole server etc, I mean I am not saying dont take timing in to consideration but If people are making decisions bas3ed on timing tells, against me its going to achieve the same affect of flipping a coin pretty much.
This is why the majority of timing tells are people acting quickly rather than slowly.
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Old 07-22-2015, 09:01 AM   #2291
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by NellyV View Post
They banned the chart retrieval software which was beating the husng cartels.
? Wait.. I haven't been here for long time...

So there's a HUSNG cartel. And then someone figured out how to beat them. And now someone cried foul and stars is banning the software that's helping beat the cartel?
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Old 07-22-2015, 01:41 PM   #2292
ArtyMcFly
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Yes. That was on page 1 of the thread. See post #34.
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Old 07-24-2015, 12:00 PM   #2293
NellyV
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by tokeweed View Post
? Wait.. I haven't been here for long time...

So there's a HUSNG cartel. And then someone figured out how to beat them. And now someone cried foul and stars is banning the software that's helping beat the cartel?
It looks that way. Without the cartels the games would be dead as they are not beatable to any worthwhile extent outside the protection of the cartels. If someone puts the cartels out of business then they cost Pokerstars money.
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Old 07-24-2015, 12:33 PM   #2294
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by TooCuriousso1 View Post

I'd like to reiterate banning starting hand charts is so unbelievably dumb.

Honestly, just take a step back here and think about this. A Hud/tracker--that important all HH and spits out the frequencies of opponents in every imaginable situation/line is ok. A software that records opponents timing frequencies and gives info on patterns of their timing is ok. But starting hand charts aren't? Not only that, it's not enforceable!
+1 also and even though I am not a HU player, it is just common sense imo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tokeweed View Post
? Wait.. I haven't been here for long time...

So there's a HUSNG cartel. And then someone figured out how to beat them. And now someone cried foul and stars is banning the software that's helping beat the cartel?
This is also funny. I had no idea there was this 'cartel' but how stupid.

You know it seems with each day that passes, I read 2+2 and just roll my eyes and look with disgust at just how poorly the online poker industry has declined.

We have MA'ing going on, the Industry leaders do nothing and yet they feel the need to jump on a guy for using hand charts. What in the hell is going on here?
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Old 07-24-2015, 01:13 PM   #2295
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by All Hail Circe View Post
+1 also and even though I am not a HU player, it is just common sense imo.



This is also funny. I had no idea there was this 'cartel' but how stupid.

You know it seems with each day that passes, I read 2+2 and just roll my eyes and look with disgust at just how poorly the online poker industry has declined.

We have MA'ing going on, the Industry leaders do nothing and yet they feel the need to jump on a guy for using hand charts. What in the hell is going on here?
But it wasn't just bog standard hand charts, when i was playing heads up hypers I had a nash chart i used but it was one page for 10bb after a while I had naturally memorized it and stopped using it. this was real basic though one page 10bb etc I dont think thats such a huge deal.

Skiers software if i understand right was a system of call up charts which covered a very wide series of scenarios went into far too much detail and was effectively a bot.

if it was allowed to continue and it spread to other games which was only a matter of time, it would reach a point where people without the software simply could not compete and thats a big problem.
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Old 07-25-2015, 07:10 AM   #2296
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

What's the latest on Notecaddy being potentially banned?
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Old 07-25-2015, 12:09 PM   #2297
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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What's the latest on Notecaddy being potentially banned?
PokerStars Steve didn't say NoteCaddy was going to be potentially banned.. but he said it would need to have changes as is. Nobody really knows what he means by that. PokerStars hasn't reached out to NoteCaddy (as far as I know) explaining what, if anything, needs to be changed about it.
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Old 07-26-2015, 05:51 AM   #2298
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by LukeSilver View Post
But it wasn't just bog standard hand charts, when i was playing heads up hypers I had a nash chart i used but it was one page for 10bb after a while I had naturally memorized it and stopped using it. this was real basic though one page 10bb etc I dont think thats such a huge deal.

Skiers software if i understand right was a system of call up charts which covered a very wide series of scenarios went into far too much detail and was effectively a bot.

if it was allowed to continue and it spread to other games which was only a matter of time, it would reach a point where people without the software simply could not compete and thats a big problem.
That was the scare campaign ie skiers preflop software transformed mediocre players into beasts overnight. There was also misleading and illegally captured stats showing how close one of the stable was to skier post flop (as it turns out, the rest of that player's stats postflop and the rest of the stables' are meaningfully different to skier)

In fact, the people in skiers stable have become successful by
1) skier handpicking very few candidates
2) those candidates studying incredibly hard individually and as a group with individual coaching from skier (who is a high stakes reg)
3) 6 months+ of hard work

So preflop charts = bots was never correct.
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Old 07-26-2015, 11:09 AM   #2299
NellyV
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by pies01 View Post
That was the scare campaign ie skiers preflop software transformed mediocre players into beasts overnight. There was also misleading and illegally captured stats showing how close one of the stable was to skier post flop (as it turns out, the rest of that player's stats postflop and the rest of the stables' are meaningfully different to skier)

In fact, the people in skiers stable have become successful by
1) skier handpicking very few candidates
2) those candidates studying incredibly hard individually and as a group with individual coaching from skier (who is a high stakes reg)
3) 6 months+ of hard work

So preflop charts = bots was never correct.
What happened to this stable ? Did they all join the cartels ?
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Old 07-26-2015, 05:15 PM   #2300
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

There are all in different division/cartels - depending on what level they're at.

When they make it into a division, somebody gets kicked out.
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