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Old 07-12-2015, 08:03 PM   #2251
pies01
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by Richas View Post


Net effect for the fish - well no hope of getting up against another fish and if the cartel is effective a BIGGER skill disparity between them and the person they get to sit with as they face "good" regs not "bad" regs.
They didn't have hope before or after divisions of playing recreational players. They are now playing "good" regs but that doesn't mean there is a bigger skill disparity in these games. Some of the best regs aren't as good at playing recreational players - my ev vs the regs I've taregeted is something like 0.5% and vs recs ~3%
Many people kicked out were achieving rois of 5%+ with highly exploitative plays that couldn't adapt when playing regs



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It is an old fashioned closed shop craft union, with a deliberately high cost of entry to deliver a high benefit to membership. Cartels exist to benefit cartel members, not recs, not regs without the same full time volume required to gain entry but fundamentally the cartels are about bum hunting, it is about monopolising the bums for the cartel members.
I don't know much about craft shops but if a new craft maker can join within a few months if they statistically prove they are one of the best craft makers then I guess that's a fine comparison

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I note that someone stressed how the way that ex cartel members do not come back, do not fight their way back in to the cartel was a sign that they were healthily meritocratic...oh dear me no, if they were then some propomoton/demotion would be routine - instead those that know about cartels choose not to go for it again, they move on, they don't fight to get back in to the union, or if they do they find themselves stuffed. That lack of cartel members coming back is a symtom of the whole charade being a temporary, unstable phenomenom.
Dozens of people have been promoted - it's just that all those kicked have failed to make it back (and many have tried)
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Old 07-12-2015, 09:14 PM   #2252
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Watching twitch streams of Spin&Go's the constant chat request is, "Can we see some HUSNG's please?" And the streamer replying, "No action in the lobby. Sorry."

The HUSNG format continues to be really popular! Not just to watch but to play. But the simple request from a recreational player is, "Pokerstars can I please have a lobby system where I reasonably frequently get to play players like me?"

It is no defense to say a rec will always get sat by a reg, whether under sharky or under pre-sharky. That just means both lobby setups are bad for the long term health of the game, the enjoyment of the rec player. Pokerstars needs to provide a lobby where recs get to play rec. Fullstop. Or else they stop playing and regs have a lot to lose from that outcome.

If we must have cartels, I would prefer a world where the cartels beat up on other regs so badly that only the very strong regs survived at each stake so the reg to rec ratio was healthy enough that recs get games against other recs say one game in 3 or 4 (off the top of my head). In that world personally I'd waste a lot of money at $100 HUSNGs but I'm not stupid enough to sit as sharkbait in today's lobby.

One of the cartel problems is that there are too many regs maximum at each level.
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Old 07-12-2015, 09:19 PM   #2253
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by Richas View Post
...snip...
It is an old fashioned closed shop craft union, with a deliberately high cost of entry to deliver a high benefit to membership. Cartels exist to benefit cartel members, not recs, not regs without the same full time volume required to gain entry but fundamentally the cartels are about bum hunting, it is about monopolising the bums for the cartel members.
... snip...
I loved this whole post but especially the quoted part.
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Old 07-13-2015, 07:18 AM   #2254
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

kk go raise your pitchforks at stars then.

I'm sure they will be happy to respond to your requests and concerns about the lobbies. As I say again- you don't play the format and don't have knowledge of what has gone on for the past years, and just based on gut feeling make things out to be more shady than they are (by using cartels, collusion, cheating in the same way you do when it comes to say multiaccounting collusion in spin and goes).

As mentioned before- beating recs is somewhat of a different skill to battling regs- and the cartel system favours the latter as it encourages reg on reg action. I don't make too many exploitative plays either so I would imagine someone else could crush recs far better than I.

You just don't like the idea that it's very obvious you will never be seated with a rec with a cartel system, and prefer the illusion that you could pre cartels. Perhaps as a casual reg from another game- you would like to have a chance to "bumhunt" hu hypers from time to time vs fish. Well, it was decided that you shouldn't be able to do this in order to reduce the no. of regs in the game via encouraged reg on reg action. Sorry you don't like it.

Talking about twitch chat wanting to see HU hyper action- why not ask some cash players to stream hucash for a few mins? Even if the stream tried to sit ppl on stream, most will sit out lol. At least in husngs action cannot be denied. Don't you see HU is fundamentally different to other forms of poker? Maybe introducing HU tables back in 2006 or w/e on stars was the biggest mistake made.
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Old 07-13-2015, 09:43 AM   #2255
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Talking about twitch chat wanting to see HU hyper action- why not ask some cash players to stream hucash for a few mins? Even if the stream tried to sit ppl on stream, most will sit out lol. At least in husngs action cannot be denied. Don't you see HU is fundamentally different to other forms of poker? Maybe introducing HU tables back in 2006 or w/e on stars was the biggest mistake made.
BTW, Nanonoko does sometimes stream HU play. He mainly streams MTTs and 6-max cash during the 5 minute on the hour MTT break. There are so many people streaming you can pretty much find whatever you want either in a past broadcast or currently streaming.
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Old 07-13-2015, 09:53 AM   #2256
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Today this happened to me. I had no idea about the software they spoke about before today, I am not the only one who received this email, my account has been frozen and I have not been acknowledged for the past 7 hours, but what concerns me most is the fact that, if a false alarm has triggered once and I have been warned, the next time I can be banned for life and forget about my BR.

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...postcount=1335
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Old 07-13-2015, 10:25 AM   #2257
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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BTW, Nanonoko does sometimes stream HU play. He mainly streams MTTs and 6-max cash during the 5 minute on the hour MTT break. There are so many people streaming you can pretty much find whatever you want either in a past broadcast or currently streaming.
And primo streams some hu hypers too and so do many others. What is your point?
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Old 07-13-2015, 08:41 PM   #2258
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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And primo streams some hu hypers too and so do many others. What is your point?
My point is that Nano is a 6-max cash reg, yet he streams HU cash sometimes and as high as $5000 buy-in. So not everyone sitsouts when table goes headsup at cash. Most 6-max regs don't sitout. Only weak bumhunting regs do that actually (such as most fullring guys).

Last edited by TimTamBiscuit; 07-13-2015 at 08:54 PM.
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Old 07-13-2015, 08:53 PM   #2259
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by watergun7 View Post
Talking about twitch chat wanting to see HU hyper action- why not ask some cash players to stream hucash for a few mins? Even if the stream tried to sit ppl on stream, most will sit out lol. At least in husngs action cannot be denied. Don't you see HU is fundamentally different to other forms of poker? Maybe introducing HU tables back in 2006 or w/e on stars was the biggest mistake made.
Sorry, I keep forgetting to quote above which was what my last two posts were a response to.
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Old 07-14-2015, 09:42 AM   #2260
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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According to a study made by Microgaming on which they compare regulare cash game tables (Where HUDs are allowed) vs Anonymous table (Where the use of a HUD its unpractical and stupid) and after 175 million hands they came up with these conclusions...
(Source: http://www.thempn.eu/blog/world-without-huds/)

1. In games with HUDs, there is less action. Players bet less, and when they do bet, the bets are smaller. Pots are smaller as a result.
2. In games with HUDs, players multi-table more.
3. In games with HUDs, winners win less, because pots are smaller.
4. In games with HUDs, losers lose less, also because pots are smaller.
5. In games with HUDs, winners pay more rake per Euro they win (but less per hand, because pots are smaller).
6. In games with HUDs, variance is lower, and poor players are more consistent losers as a result.
I am the author of this blog post. I don't want to derail this delightful thread, but I'd be happy to discuss the post further here: https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/29...ables-1496225/
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Old 07-15-2015, 09:13 AM   #2261
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Why not make Fulltilt a pure recreational site banning all poker tracking software, etc.. And leave Stars as it is.
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Old 07-17-2015, 10:38 AM   #2262
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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After thorough consideration of the input here and a lengthy internal discussion, we’ve decided to move forward in principle with the changes proposed in the OP. We still have some decisions to make regarding final wording and also to make sure we are comfortable with our detection and enforcement capability. In the meantime we will be in touch with some software developers regarding their existing applications to clarify which features might violate the upcoming rules so that they will have time to make the appropriate changes.

There is one immediate change to announce. The catalyst for this conversation was a particular piece of software that efficiently delivers relevant play recommendation charts for HUSNG. Effective immediately, we are ruling that this software can no longer be used while the PokerStars client is open.

In the past we had always allowed charts to be used for reference during play. A primary reason was that a player could simply print out a chart and we would not be able to detect it. Another was that the charts in use were limited in their impact on the game. Detailed charts that were complex enough to provide advice useful enough to be competitive against capable players were very limited in the breadth of situations covered, such as push-fold nash charts for HU play. Any charts covering the game more comprehensively, such as hand grouping charts with basic strategy, were not complex enough to cause an issue for game integrity.

This new software framework could be used to replicate the utility of a complex bot in a chart format. It has greatly advanced the efficiency of chart retrieval and presentation to the point where we must take action. While there will be challenges with enforcement, we believe the cost of leaving this software allowable is too high.

I want to make completely clear that we are headed firmly toward further restrictions on 3rd party software in the future. There is a meaningful probability that within the next year or two our policies will be significantly more restrictive than even the proposal in the OP. Our intent is to implement change gradually over time, ensuring that our internal detection and enforcement capabilities are able to keep up with the rules and that the community has adequate time to adjust.

I do not have anything to share about how far we might go in the future in our restriction of 3rd party software. We will continue to consider and evaluate additional information and input prior to making each and every decision.

Thanks to all who provided their thoughts and input on this topic.
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Originally Posted by PokerStars Steve View Post
There is one immediate change to announce. The catalyst for this conversation was a particular piece of software that efficiently delivers relevant play recommendation charts for HUSNG. Effective immediately, we are ruling that this software can no longer be used while the PokerStars client is open.
What's the name of this software ? Is it OK to have other charts open ? I would welcome clarification on this.
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Old 07-17-2015, 07:03 PM   #2263
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Why not make Fulltilt a pure recreational site banning all poker tracking software, etc.. And leave Stars as it is.
So that all the fish flock to FT and Stars is left with just regs? What a great idea!
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Old 07-17-2015, 09:42 PM   #2264
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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So that all the fish flock to FT and Stars is left with just regs? What a great idea!

It could be done by forcing players to play on Pokerstars if they win too much money on Full Tilt. It might work if it was two way so losers on Pokerstars were allowed back on to Full Tilt.
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Old 07-18-2015, 04:46 AM   #2265
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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It could be done by forcing players to play on Pokerstars if they win too much money on Full Tilt. It might work if it was two way so losers on Pokerstars were allowed back on to Full Tilt.
Then the best fish from FT will be forced to Stars only to get destroyed by regs and then be forced back to FT. The worst regs from Stars will get sent to FT only to destroy the fish and get sent back to Stars. Seems like a pointless system.
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Old 07-18-2015, 04:51 AM   #2266
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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It could be done by forcing players to play on Pokerstars if they win too much money on Full Tilt. It might work if it was two way so losers on Pokerstars were allowed back on to Full Tilt.
Yeah poker definitely needs even more segregation...
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Old 07-18-2015, 06:35 AM   #2267
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Hey Steve,

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/28...80/index6.html

Anyone at Stars takes cares about this?

Thank you.

Last edited by alternative 3; 07-18-2015 at 06:54 AM.
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Old 07-18-2015, 06:36 AM   #2268
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

I am getting better and rising through the stakes all the time, Whilst having made money along the away I obviously have contribute a lot in rake.

now tell me I will be forced to play a higher standard if I keep winning until I either be best in the world or start losing and I will stop over night.


there are many players like me and stars would not be wise to want to risk losing any of us.

If there was ever going to be a player segregation according to ability, which btw would be an awful idea, then the best way to do it would be something similar to world cup seeding, eg six max sng seeded two strong regs from group A two mediocre players from group B and two fish from group C. this would mean the fish never got totally flustered by five sharks and still stood some chance and the sharks could make money etc.

in reality this like all systems would fail, primarily reason for this failing is the games barely run anyway I mean seriously I struggle to get 25+ games running at a time as it is, which is barely enough and how the hell am I going to get the volume in with that sort of seeding.
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Old 07-18-2015, 07:06 AM   #2269
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

didnt follow this thread , but is there a possibility, that hem and pt will be on the list for the prophibited softwares on pokerstars in the near future?
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Old 07-19-2015, 05:01 AM   #2270
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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So that all the fish flock to FT and Stars is left with just regs? What a great idea!
Easy money transfer to FTP then. Regs from stars who decide to play the fish at FTP will have to play with no tracker/huds.

So you get to choose. Nit it up or play poker.

So in a way, regs get spread out.

Last edited by tokeweed; 07-19-2015 at 05:08 AM.
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Old 07-19-2015, 08:13 AM   #2271
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Any change that limits the unfair and advantage hudtards have over others is progress. So well done stars on that front. I welcome the proposed changes coming in the future. Cheers.
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Old 07-19-2015, 04:46 PM   #2272
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

There are some calculator or so softwares out there that even integrate to the tables like a hud, 100 dollars or so per year. Maybe still on the white list. If such a calculator gives the pot odds and the hand range relative, on every street, it is more or less as good as a gto bot. Maybe what the plo bots were and are.

Would improve ones results as it is tough to do that as well in the head. Softwares like flopzilla, used for research, give some idea how accurate these softwares can be and are and can be used during play if integrated.

Not sure how much hem and pt can show during play with all the additional software, if they can give pot odds or even ranges, from hand histories, they can give a lot of stats during play and that could include past hand ranges. So not necessarily a live calculator.

Like pot odds and advice, rankings. I suppose such advice will be banned, but one can see how easily such can be done with some programming skill or by just looking around. Pot odds and advice tables are pretty easy stuffs and can be done in the head and with paper or not tables also, or can be put more or less in memory, resulting in possible ban.

If there is some legal live calculator, one is better to use one, preferably one that integrates and better still if with at least some sort of hand range percentage. Live meaning the moment. Best to check the white list when they have selected their line, that though seems to ban the manual ones also. But there can be other sites where they are still allowed .
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Old 07-19-2015, 05:51 PM   #2273
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

I think hand histories should be provided on request and we should be allowed to download and store these ina data base like poker tracker etc, but it should not be allowed as a hud in life play.
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Old 07-19-2015, 07:30 PM   #2274
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Hi Pokerstars Steve,

Since datamining cannot be stopped, is it possible for the sites to at least allow players to change their nicknames easily? This would reset all existing database stats and make them redundant. It would also make targetting players less effective as well. What do you think?
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Old 07-20-2015, 12:36 AM   #2275
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

@ PokerStars Steve


Does this mean you are finally going to act against Azn-Ra? The guy has very clearly been botting / using assisted software for over two years now on HUSNGs and you still refuse to act on it even after the whole community has sent in various emails to you over that time.

Does this mean that in order to get things acted upon now we need to take everything public through 2p2 and/or other social media?

Obviously this option isn't +EV for us as poker players either but if you still refuse to act on this what choice do you leave us with?
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