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Old 06-12-2015, 01:06 PM   #201
TheDefiniteArticle
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by DarkMattersMan View Post
Whether you believe it or not is irrelevant. And tbh its not suprising to me as it goes against your pro hud stance.
Myself personally? I learned how to play poker in a home game in 2008 and began playing poker online straight away. I learned about huds in 2012. At a casino from a reg. So, theres that...
You literally never visited an online poker forum, googled 'online poker strategy' or anything similar? You have got to be a significant outlier.
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Old 06-12-2015, 01:09 PM   #202
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

POKERSTARS STEVE
Lets see just how serious you are on this issue. As I type this there are currently 123,993 logged in players on the Pokerstars client.
In this forum there are 179 users of which 40 are members.
I call your bluff and I want to see if you email your entire database and explain in detail of the 3rd party software being used by alot of your clients, then pose this question in your OP.
Please do that then come back with the feedback. Cheers. But as another poster said in NVG, this seems like just a PR stunt because of the recent bot scandal.
Cheers
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Old 06-12-2015, 01:11 PM   #203
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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You literally never visited an online poker forum, googled 'online poker strategy' or anything similar? You have got to be a significant outlier.
I first visited this site the morning after black friday. Followed the NVG for a while on the Black friday topic.
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Old 06-12-2015, 01:20 PM   #204
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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I first visited this site the morning after black friday. Followed the NVG for a while on the Black friday topic.
Yeah, I mean, if you came here and didn't realise HUDs were a thing there really isn't much hope for you, is there?
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Old 06-12-2015, 01:27 PM   #205
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

It's no sense in the prohibition of soft like Flopzilla or PokerStove etc. IMHO

Because of all data for calculations must be entered manually (as I know, and as I use. Am I wrong?).
Usually, time to enter data in this programs not so quick. And in most cases it requires to sitout another tables or/and use all of timebank in generally. Or even make some calculations after hand has played.

And if we take into account that all data must still be entered manually by player, there is no difficulty in running this types of programs on second PC/Tablet/notebook. Which even don't be needed to be internet plugged in.
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Old 06-12-2015, 01:29 PM   #206
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Let me give you a real life example of huds and new players. 6 of my friends signed up online to play poker after seeing me win tournaments.
6 months later and I tell them why poker is harder and harder to beat. I explain HUDS. They were dumbfounded. All 6 of them self excluded there accounts permenently. They felt cheated. And they are right.
Please explain to me how new players or even exisiting players could come to know there are 3rd party softwares available to them????? And dont list 2+2 as your answer.
Pokerstars' terms of service explicitly encourages people to read their FAQ on third party tools. That's kind of a big clue.
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Old 06-12-2015, 02:16 PM   #207
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Next cool story......and also not very convincing.
Each one is more fantastic than the last
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Old 06-12-2015, 02:18 PM   #208
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Availability at a low cost does mean a level playing field. It's not a level playing field if it is then banned and only available to people who have the skills or the finance to pay for a way to circumvent the ban. Also you'll have to define the term 'cheat data' if you want to use it in any discussion. And finally Notecaddy's capabilities etc are out there so there aren't any unknowns about it.
It is clearly not a level playing field if some have a different interface and lopsided information.

Cheat data is any data not related to plays you have personally played against your opponent.

Notecaddy is almost infinitely customisable, not that players bother to do it themselves, that's what the extra packages available do. Notecaddy seeks and gets approval from Stars then we get add-on after add-on offering more and more specific in game advice in as clear a way as possible. Some of those packages are available openly, for instance via this site. Others not, kept for a paticular ring or stable or whatever the latest polite term is for a group of players actively collaborating to the disadvantage of others.

You will note that NoteCaddy is on the permitted list but there is no reference to the various add-ons available that expand the capability. Add ons that even if banned can be sold and denied by NoteCaddy itself.

I put it to you that you have absolutely no idea how some people are using NoteCaddy against you. In fact I am pretty damn sure that Stars don't know either. One sure thing is though - some groups are sharing their data with each other or using illegal data to make it even more powerful - AGAINST YOU (and me). It like HUDs is an essential tool for the data cheats.
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Old 06-12-2015, 02:21 PM   #209
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Each one is more fantastic than the last
Are you seriously suggesting that the use of HUDs and other software is not a deterrent to new or casual players participation?

If so here is your next holiday

http://www.redseaholidays.co.uk/nilecruises
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Old 06-12-2015, 02:31 PM   #210
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Notecaddy is almost infinitely customisable, not that players bother to do it themselves, that's what the extra packages available do.
Interesting how you evolved in 24 hours from someone having no clue how for example badges in NoteCaddy work to someone who knows all about it's "almost infinitely" possibilities for customization.

Important is that is sounds good what you say, right?!
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Old 06-12-2015, 02:34 PM   #211
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Are you seriously suggesting that the use of HUDs and other software is not a deterrent to new or casual players participation?

If so here is your next holiday

http://www.redseaholidays.co.uk/nilecruises
Seems like a pretty reasonable suggestion to me. It's basically the same thing as asking whether the fact that other players will be better than them is a deterrent for new/casual players playing at all (okay, it's not quite, but once they get to the stage where they've been playing long enough that finding out about software is going to put them off they're probably going to be the sort who would come up with some rigtard conspiracy anyway).
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Old 06-12-2015, 02:36 PM   #212
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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It is clearly not a level playing field if some have a different interface and lopsided information.
That interface is available to all

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Cheat data is any data not related to plays you have personally played against your opponent.
Where is this definition from? Also, would this include a manually taken note about a hand you weren't involved in?

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Notecaddy is almost infinitely customisable, not that players bother to do it themselves, that's what the extra packages available do. Notecaddy seeks and gets approval from Stars then we get add-on after add-on offering more and more specific in game advice in as clear a way as possible. Some of those packages are available openly, for instance via this site. Others not, kept for a paticular ring or stable or whatever the latest polite term is for a group of players actively collaborating to the disadvantage of others.

You will note that NoteCaddy is on the permitted list but there is no reference to the various add-ons available that expand the capability. Add ons that even if banned can be sold and denied by NoteCaddy itself.

I put it to you that you have absolutely no idea how some people are using NoteCaddy against you. In fact I am pretty damn sure that Stars don't know either. One sure thing is though - some groups are sharing their data with each other or using illegal data to make it even more powerful - AGAINST YOU (and me). It like HUDs is an essential tool for the data cheats.
Notecaddy is legal, it's add ons are legal. Until you can point to something specific about it, or it's various add ons, then you are just making assumptions or guessing (wrongly). I believe you've already had this pointed out to you by the creator of NC. And I don't know why you've randomly thrown in the straw man of data sharing as it is an entirely different subject and not something you're likely to find anyone defending.
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Old 06-12-2015, 02:41 PM   #213
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Are you seriously suggesting that the use of HUDs and other software is not a deterrent to new or casual players participation?

If so here is your next holiday

http://www.redseaholidays.co.uk/nilecruises
Look, I've read some of your posts in the past on regulation etc and thought they were pretty good. I'm not sure what you're playing at here though. The quote above is about the fantastic tales by another poster about him and his 6 friends all playing poker, him for years, and not one of them being aware of huds. So I have no idea why you have quoted that while asking the question above.
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Old 06-12-2015, 02:47 PM   #214
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Seems like a pretty reasonable suggestion to me. It's basically the same thing as asking whether the fact that other players will be better than them is a deterrent for new/casual players playing at all (okay, it's not quite, but once they get to the stage where they've been playing long enough that finding out about software is going to put them off they're probably going to be the sort who would come up with some rigtard conspiracy anyway).
LOL. Nice trolling here. Cool analogy too.

It's basically the same as saying to a new player 'Oh, btw, your opponents at the table, well, they automatically know how much you are up or down, how many hands you have played lifetime. How likely you are to raise in each position, how likely you are to fold to a 3bet, how long you tank when betting certain spots, the hand ranges you play, how often you c bet the turn and river, how often you play your button, sb, bb, whether you defend those spots, oh, also, like how aggressive you are, how much you like to voluntarily put your chips into the pot, how often you lead the flop, in their terms this is known as 'donk bet' whether you like to float flops and turns, I could go on sir, but, well theres a starter for you. And the cool thing is bud is that these guys, well they have all this information nicely displayed and logged automatically in real time. So basically bud, good luck'
'Oh, and cash games, you dont need to worry about finding a table, just sit and they will come to you, in a hurry'


YA, this is really going to get new players joining up to play.
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Old 06-12-2015, 02:50 PM   #215
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Interesting how you evolved in 24 hours from someone having no clue how for example badges in NoteCaddy work to someone who knows all about it's "almost infinitely" possibilities for customization.

Important is that is sounds good what you say, right?!
I was accused by the guy who makes and sells it of knowing nothing or rather of beliving his marketing.

Go on, check the add ons, see what it can do.
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Old 06-12-2015, 02:52 PM   #216
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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LOL. Nice trolling here. Cool analogy too.

It's basically the same as saying to a new player 'Oh, btw, your opponents at the table, well, they automatically know how much you are up or down, how many hands you have played lifetime. How likely you are to raise in each position, how likely you are to fold to a 3bet, how long you tank when betting certain spots, the hand ranges you play, how often you c bet the turn and river, how often you play your button, sb, bb, whether you defend those spots, oh, also, like how aggressive you are, how much you like to voluntarily put your chips into the pot, how often you lead the flop, in their terms this is known as 'donk bet' whether you like to float flops and turns, I could go on sir, but, well theres a starter for you. And the cool thing is bud is that these guys, well they have all this information nicely displayed and logged automatically in real time. So basically bud, good luck'
'Oh, and cash games, you dont need to worry about finding a table, just sit and they will come to you, in a hurry'


YA, this is really going to get new players joining up to play.
Why didn't you warn any of your 6 friends about this when they took up poker?
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Old 06-12-2015, 02:55 PM   #217
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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LOL. Nice trolling here. Cool analogy too.

It's basically the same as saying to a new player 'Oh, btw, your opponents at the table, well, they automatically know how much you are up or down, how many hands you have played lifetime. How likely you are to raise in each position, how likely you are to fold to a 3bet, how long you tank when betting certain spots, the hand ranges you play, how often you c bet the turn and river, how often you play your button, sb, bb, whether you defend those spots, oh, also, like how aggressive you are, how much you like to voluntarily put your chips into the pot, how often you lead the flop, in their terms this is known as 'donk bet' whether you like to float flops and turns, I could go on sir, but, well theres a starter for you. And the cool thing is bud is that these guys, well they have all this information nicely displayed and logged automatically in real time. So basically bud, good luck'
'Oh, and cash games, you dont need to worry about finding a table, just sit and they will come to you, in a hurry'


YA, this is really going to get new players joining up to play.
You clearly misunderstand HUDs. Datamining is a completely different issue - supporting the existence of HUDs doesn't mean that anyone you haven't played before has any idea how you play except based on the information you give off (stack size/screen name/avatar/VIP status/number of tables/country tells). FWIW I have pretty much never had enough hands on a rec to effectively use turn floating stats.

Also, seat scripting is something completely different too. I'm against seat scripting because it automates part of the skill involved in the game. It reduces the amount of skill involved whereas the existence of HUDs increases it.

Finally, while we're talking about things which would scare recs/new players off, why don't we tell them everything about the true nature of the game? "Yeah, so you might've seen in Rounders, Casino Royale or whatever that it's a game of people, but that's not really all that true and nearly everyone remotely competent at the game understands it in terms of mathematics". "Yeah, so you might win in the short run and think you're really good at poker but because you're new, you almost certainly aren't and it's merely variance deluding you - in fact, you'd be better off playing table games".
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Old 06-12-2015, 02:56 PM   #218
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Why didn't you warn any of your 6 friends about this when they took up poker?
I did.... Thats why they quit. Btw sherlock, I did say that within the last 6 months 6 friends of mine started to play online poker after seeing me winning. They were losing hard and fast. When I mentioned it they all quit. Individually.

And, listen, instead of trying to divert from my valid points and nitpicking my wording why dont you offer something of substance? You cant. Can you?
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Old 06-12-2015, 02:59 PM   #219
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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You clearly misunderstand HUDs. Datamining is a completely different issue - supporting the existence of HUDs doesn't mean that anyone you haven't played before has any idea how you play except based on the information you give off (stack size/screen name/avatar/VIP status/number of tables/country tells). FWIW I have pretty much never had enough hands on a rec to effectively use turn floating stats.

Also, seat scripting is something completely different too. I'm against seat scripting because it automates part of the skill involved in the game. It reduces the amount of skill involved whereas the existence of HUDs increases it.

Finally, while we're talking about things which would scare recs/new players off, why don't we tell them everything about the true nature of the game? "Yeah, so you might've seen in Rounders, Casino Royale or whatever that it's a game of people, but that's not really all that true and nearly everyone remotely competent at the game understands it in terms of mathematics". "Yeah, so you might win in the short run and think you're really good at poker but because you're new, you almost certainly aren't and it's merely variance deluding you - in fact, you'd be better off playing table games".
NO. I DONT. Why should you have all of that valuable data logged in real time with no effort put in? Do you think its fair that you should have that unfair advantage without using your memory and skill whilst others dont have that luxury???
And data mining is still clearly rampant.. As too, is auto seat scripting which Im aware steve left out.
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Old 06-12-2015, 03:02 PM   #220
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Dark matters man, you are in derailing this thread, please try to keep it on topic
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Old 06-12-2015, 03:03 PM   #221
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Dark matters man, you are in derailing this thread, please try to keep it on topic
How am I derailing?
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Old 06-12-2015, 03:05 PM   #222
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

I am a mid/highstakes regular at NLHE 6max on stars, here is my .02c on the situation-

i have no problem with anyone using any piece of software which interprets/displays information about the hand history files they earned by playing. so for me, a program like HM2/NC is absolutely fine, even when extended to its maximum potential. where I'd personally chose to draw the line would be between computer aided, retrospective analysis of hands and live, in-game analysis/advice-giving type softwares. my reasoning for this is as follows - the hand history file which you can chose to save to your computer when you play is essentially a resource, which you can use as you please. if someone logs a bunch of hands with me and uses notecaddy to determine i fold x% to turn bets on A high boards, i don't feel like i'm being cheated at all, i feel like they're really just efficiently automating an exhaustive note-taking process. whether a recreational player would feel like they were being cheated is another question, which i am not really able to answer well, I can only give my own perspective. however, i absolutely would feel like i'm being cheated if someone was to use a program that went beyond retrospective analysis of hand histories and told them what to do, based on pre-computed solutions. for me, it becomes cheating when it goes beyond note taking (however efficient) to a program telling the user what to do with this hand in this situation. so, to be clear, someone opening a popup that displays how much i have bet (any number of sizes)/checked/folded in any situation, regardless of the level of detail, is fine with me - i respect the efficiency of their note-taking, which they've chosen to automate using a computer. they still have to identify the relevant information, gauge it's reliability and decide themselves how they might use it to create/alter a strategy. the use of computer automated note-taking here augments the intellectual challenge of two humans playing poker against each other.

on the other hand, someone opening a program which tells them that with this hand, in this situation, they should bet x%, check y% is not fine. this is more than any number of humans could determine by looking at hand histories. though it is still a human clicking the buttons, the human operator is essentially a middle man executing the computer's strategy vs a human, which is unfair.

i guess the easiest way to succinctly express the distinction would be this - a program which tells you what has happened in the past (i.e. provides notes) is fine, a program which tells you what should happen (i.e. provides live advice) is not.

i am deliberately ignoring, for now, the extensive problems relating to enforcement/policing of the games once a reasonable policy has been set for the types of software that are and are not permitted - my understanding is that this thread is for discussing how the rules should be set, rather than how pokerstars might create an effectively policy for ensuring the rules are followed by everyone.
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Old 06-12-2015, 03:07 PM   #223
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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NO. I DONT. Why should you have all of that valuable data logged in real time with no effort put in? Do you think its fair that you should have that unfair advantage without using your memory and skill whilst others dont have that luxury???
And data mining is still clearly rampant.. As too, is auto seat scripting which Im aware steve left out.
What do you mean others don't have that luxury? I've noted that I'm all for an in-built HUD; the HUD itself isn't the problem according to this argument. There is absolutely nothing unfair about collecting data which everyone has the opportunity to collect.
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Old 06-12-2015, 03:12 PM   #224
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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How am I derailing?
With your ******ed fairytales that no one believes.
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Old 06-12-2015, 03:12 PM   #225
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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I was accused by the guy who makes and sells it of knowing nothing or rather of beliving his marketing.

Go on, check the add ons, see what it can do.
You have been accused of knowing nothing BUT making claims about what NoteCaddy does. In case you have no clue about something, don't make claims about it. Not on the internet, not in real life.
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