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Old 07-08-2015, 06:03 PM   #2151
ArtyMcFly
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Cliffs were on page 1.

Post #14:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rant View Post
How can these rules possibly be enforced?
Doesn't this just limit ethical players to having a disadvantage against unethical players who have virtually no risk of being caught?
It would be better for everyone if there were no software aids but I just don't see how it can be enforced.
Post #34:
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Originally Posted by ArtyMcFly View Post
It seems to me that the proposed rules changes would just help HuSnG.com cartels stay in business while recreational players continue to get crushed. Forgive my cynicism, but Skier found a way to beat the cartels, and it seems Stars wants to ban his software, but not theirs.
I suspect the the majority of customers want ALL software aids banned, including HUDs. The problem is not going to go away, and altering some of the rules as part of a PR exercise will likely achieve virtually nothing.
LOL debataments.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TimTamBiscuit View Post
Translation of Pokerstars statement:
Please all go away and stop bothering us.
Quoted for the painful lulz.
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Old 07-08-2015, 06:23 PM   #2152
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

not much left to be said. skier, if you need help figuring out how to get your software running feel free to PM.
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Old 07-08-2015, 06:47 PM   #2153
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

I retract my statement and +1 to stars. fu stars you greedy pricks, do something about the ****ing software and bots. A ssholes
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Old 07-08-2015, 07:14 PM   #2154
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Sad day, the lazy people who didnt go on with the revolution of the game and in there minds are still stuck in daydreams of the "good old/easy" days getting rewarded. But dont think that you losing/breakeven grinders will now suddenly make a profit like in the old days when there was no notecaddy and such programs.

The hard workers who kept on looking to gain a edge and were willing to do or use whatever necesarry will gain a edge again, and in a few years you guys will wine about something else that is "unfair" or "inappropriate" instead of reflecting and realising that its not the external events that make your graph go downwards but the internal ones
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Old 07-08-2015, 09:21 PM   #2155
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by watergun7 View Post
U don't say 10bb poker is easier than 100bb... And we are just talking about 10bb. Husngs are anything below 25bb, and the play changes drastically from stacksize to stacksize.

<25bb poker is already close to solved as far as a human playing vs a computer if that's what you want to know. If there was a <25bb hu challenge tomorrow a la claudico, humans wouldn't stand a chance.

But human vs human play there is a LOT of edge, and most of it has nothing to do with preflop. THAT was my point. Banning these charts won't make a huge difference to the skier group, and will only encourage cheaters.
My assertion is that within 2 years (Pokerstars nominated timeframe) programs ala Claudico that play perfectly (GTO) both pre-flop and post-flop 25BB poker HT HUSNG format will be readily available to anyone that wants to run one on a second computer, not just available to some academic or software developer. Combined with hand-sharing via dropbox or whatever, I further assert such a program will be able to maximally exploit Opponent's deviations from GTO. 2 years is a long time in technology advancement.
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Old 07-08-2015, 10:04 PM   #2156
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by PokerStars Steve View Post
After thorough consideration of the input here and a lengthy internal discussion, we’ve decided to move forward in principle with the changes proposed in the OP. We still have some decisions to make regarding final wording and also to make sure we are comfortable with our detection and enforcement capability. In the meantime we will be in touch with some software developers regarding their existing applications to clarify which features might violate the upcoming rules so that they will have time to make the appropriate changes.
I do not have anything to share about how far we might go in the future in our restriction of 3rd party software. We will continue to consider and evaluate additional information and input prior to making each and every decision.

Thanks to all who provided their thoughts and input on this topic.
I have an idea: how about dedicating these resources on bot detection rather than relying almost entirely on players policing it themselves? Banning trivial software which anyone competent with computers will find a workaround is meaningless compared to turning a blind eye allowing comrade Vladimir's bots in mother Russia to suck millions out of your games.
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Old 07-09-2015, 12:29 AM   #2157
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by MeleaB View Post
This is good news. For the health of the game I feel it's imperative that third-party software is heavily restricted. Give me a time-bank and a bottle to piss in and I can happily grind all day.
I DEMAND that piss bottles be banned. It's an unconscionable advantage.

Some might tell me to get my own piss bottle. I really can't be bothered. Plus my dick is so small I'd probably piss all over myself.

Some might tell me to play Zoom games where you can sit out as often as you like. I refuse. I only want to play non-Zoom games and demand that Stars cater the rules to my small bladder and unwillingness to use piss aids.

Some might complain that a ban is a bad idea since Stars can't enforce such a ban. Enforcement doesn't matter. The ban will at least stop some people from using piss bottles and that's enough to placate my fragile ego.
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Old 07-09-2015, 12:59 AM   #2158
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by AJackson View Post
I DEMAND that piss bottles be banned. It's an unconscionable advantage.

Some might tell me to get my own piss bottle. I really can't be bothered. Plus my dick is so small I'd probably piss all over myself.

Some might tell me to play Zoom games where you can sit out as often as you like. I refuse. I only want to play non-Zoom games and demand that Stars cater the rules to my small bladder and unwillingness to use piss aids.

Some might complain that a ban is a bad idea since Stars can't enforce such a ban. Enforcement doesn't matter. The ban will at least stop some people from using piss bottles and that's enough to placate my fragile ego.
I disagree everyone was born with the same chance to have a big penis or normal blatter. To your other point the piss was probally present before the hand was dealt so I think pee bottles are fair. Can we get a poll up plz?
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Old 07-09-2015, 06:09 AM   #2159
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenzor View Post
I have an idea: how about dedicating these resources on bot detection rather than relying almost entirely on players policing it themselves? Banning trivial software which anyone competent with computers will find a workaround is meaningless compared to turning a blind eye allowing comrade Vladimir's bots in mother Russia to suck millions out of your games.
+1
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Old 07-09-2015, 06:27 AM   #2160
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by spacegravy View Post
I honestly would prefer that no one uses charts, but on some levels (charts including preflop stack depth) it is impossible to enforce and it is completely unfair to anyone following the rules.

Please only implement rules that you can actually enforce or it only makes the situation worse. Edges at high stakes are extremely thin and this rule simply rewards players not following the rules and hurts honest players.
Well maybe stakes like $500/$1K should be just a free for all then if you think that would keep that level fair - I don't really care what you do with it. Maybe the only solution, regardless of what PokerStars do, is for you highstakes players to all meet up and play live? With the 2nd computer trick those stakes are probably not salvageable anyway so they shouldn't determine what happens.

Lower stakes are salvageable, because of:

Quote:
Originally Posted by 0xRNG View Post
no way to police that, but damage will be reduced by factor n with only one person using it instead a group of n persons i guess
the average $7 180 man might see a couple of people running skier-style software on a second machine to tell them the GTO ranges, reading out the action and getting a sore neck like a tennis spectator looking at the charts it comes up with - but TBH a) they would be better off just opening more tables and b) in any case that situation is better for legit players than the current situation where maybe half the field is running unfair software.
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Old 07-09-2015, 07:48 AM   #2161
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by TimTamBiscuit View Post
My assertion is that within 2 years (Pokerstars nominated timeframe) programs ala Claudico that play perfectly (GTO) both pre-flop and post-flop 25BB poker HT HUSNG format will be readily available to anyone that wants to run one on a second computer, not just available to some academic or software developer. Combined with hand-sharing via dropbox or whatever, I further assert such a program will be able to maximally exploit Opponent's deviations from GTO. 2 years is a long time in technology advancement.
You have a high chance of being right about with your first point. And if you are- computers would be better than any human at 100bb and maybe 200bb hu as well by that time. Making a program to max exploit opponent's deviations from GTO is also possible in theory, but in practice it's impossible based on hands played.

I also don't see the relevance of this to the discussion ITT. Preflop chart banning is useless as I said before, and stars haven't said anything to actually show that they are dealing with current/potential botting.
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Old 07-09-2015, 07:54 AM   #2162
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by LektorAJ View Post
Well maybe stakes like $500/$1K should be just a free for all then if you think that would keep that level fair - I don't really care what you do with it. Maybe the only solution, regardless of what PokerStars do, is for you highstakes players to all meet up and play live? With the 2nd computer trick those stakes are probably not salvageable anyway so they shouldn't determine what happens.

Lower stakes are salvageable, because of:



the average $7 180 man might see a couple of people running skier-style software on a second machine to tell them the GTO ranges, reading out the action and getting a sore neck like a tennis spectator looking at the charts it comes up with - but TBH a) they would be better off just opening more tables and b) in any case that situation is better for legit players than the current situation where maybe half the field is running unfair software.
HU is different to 180man let's be real. Multiplayer <20bb poker you don't really need extensive charts and it's not particularly groundbreaking. There just isn't an incentive to make an elaborate 2nd PC bot to read out optimal ranges (and gto multiplayer is useless+impossible to factor in tendencies of 8 random players at the table) for you.

I would prefer all preflop charts to be banned too- rewarding ppl who studied the game more, but it's just impossible to police and this only helps cheaters.

What stars needs to do is get up to date on bot detection. Maybe learn a thing or 2 from online chess or backgammon to prepare for the future tbh. Banning preflop charts is an unenforceable cosmetic treatment of the situation.
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Old 07-09-2015, 12:04 PM   #2163
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenzor View Post
I have an idea: how about dedicating these resources on bot detection rather than relying almost entirely on players policing it themselves? Banning trivial software which anyone competent with computers will find a workaround is meaningless compared to turning a blind eye allowing comrade Vladimir's bots in mother Russia to suck millions out of your games.
Sums up my thoughts exactly.
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Old 07-09-2015, 02:36 PM   #2164
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by PokerStars Steve View Post
I want to make completely clear that we are headed firmly toward further restrictions on 3rd party software in the future.
This area has become completely out of control in recent years so it's good to see you taking steps to address it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PokerStars Steve View Post
Our intent is to implement change gradually over time, ensuring that our internal detection and enforcement capabilities are able to keep up with the rules and that the community has adequate time to adjust.
Normally steady change would be a good thing but here there is great urgency to tackle a problem that is helping to kill poker, fast. There is also a rapidly growing public realisation that online poker is becoming increasingly automated (the truth always comes out in the end). Slowly sticking on a couple of band-aids won't save a patient that is hemorrhaging blood. With such a rapid pace of development the issue needs to quickly be tackled at its roots (eg restricting access to hh). By all means put much bigger resources into enforcement but to solve this you need to recognise that basic software platforms like HUDs are a key part of the problem and find fundamental ways to restrict their ability to operate.

Pokerstars will be a fraction of its current size In a world where everyone* uses ever-more ingenious tools feeding off HUD data. More software = smaller edges = ultimately, less rake. At some point the edges get so small for regs and the fun disappears so much for recs that we all just stop playing.

* except innocent victims you draw into your site with the suggestion that it replicates live poker, and no mention of what they're actually up against.

It's not like the points itt are really new. Many people have been warning about the problem for years. e.g. (2102):
Quote:
Originally Posted by raidalot View Post
I don't agree that HUDs are cheating if used in accordance with the site rules, however I don't use them (which hits my results significantly) and have several issues with them being permitted:

(1) Over time the HUDs are becoming increasingly sophisticated and giving players more effective real time help/advice. For example, if you can see that, over a decent sample size, a player never 4 bet bluffs then you are effectively being told what to do when he 4 bets. Thats not playing poker.

(2) Its a slippery slope. There's a fine line between HUDs and bots. If more features continue to be added to HUDs then their use will move the player closer to being like a bot, just without the last automation step.

(3) We all know that in practice HUDs are not just loaded with a players own hand data. There is an active market in hand histories. Thus the HUDs are facilitating cheating.

(4) I want my online poker game experience to be as close to possible to live. I want the same skills to apply (as far as reasonably practicable). HUDs are turning it into a different game with a very different skill set. At some point you have to stop calling it poker. Change it to something else, like the catchy "mass data accumulation and interpretation contest"!

(5) I feel the industry is pandering too much to the section of their customer base represented by the 24-tabling rake-back grinders (who are well represented on this forum) whilst failing to protect the more important part which ultimately supports the rest.

(6) There is an increasing disparity between reality and what sites are selling to the punters. Players join sites to play the game they see in the site-sponsored poker TV shows, to pit their wits against others like in the site advetisements, to win or lose according to their own skill and judgement like the sites tell the regulators. If in practice everyone pretty much has to have a HUD to survive then thats not what you're getting.

Last edited by raidalot; 07-09-2015 at 02:42 PM.
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Old 07-09-2015, 04:33 PM   #2165
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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HU is different to 180man let's be real. Multiplayer <20bb poker you don't really need extensive charts and it's not particularly groundbreaking. There just isn't an incentive to make an elaborate 2nd PC bot to read out optimal ranges (and gto multiplayer is useless+impossible to factor in tendencies of 8 random players at the table) for you.
The total rake on an $8 180 man is $118.80.
There are 8 such tournaments running as I write.
As you seem to agree, having a second computer running doesn't make much sense, so changes in the rules are enforceable.

The total rake on $300 HUSNG is is $8.98 or $17.50 depending on the speed.
There are 2 such tournaments running as we speak - though doubtless also a long queue in Sharkystator.
As everyone says, running all manner of software on a second machine makes sense regardless of rules - so this game will descend into a bot war whatever happens - the rules make no difference to the long term health of this game.


Now, please answer - the potential health of which of the above two games should be given the most weight in determining the rules?

It is possible to get notecaddy, HUDs and the other problem software out of small stakes 180s and similar levels of cash games, STTs, MTTs so we should just do it. "Enforcement" at nosebleeds is a reason to just cancel those stakes - it isn't a reason not to fix the bread and butter of the site.
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Old 07-09-2015, 06:05 PM   #2166
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

I'd be very surprised if stars makes more from 180s compared to HUSNGs (and stars are leaving a huge amount on the table by not including an add table option which would actually increase reg wars)

How long does a 180 games take? 2 hours?
HUSNG hypers (the main format in HUSNGs) takes a few minutes

HUSNGs are also a really fun game for recreational players because they win something like 47% of the time. So, unless Pokerstars do something stupid, they are a long way from dead
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Old 07-09-2015, 06:09 PM   #2167
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

+1 on Pokerstars focussing all their attention on bots and also become much more accountable and transparent eg start to produce stats like bots caught per month, investigations per month, etc
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Old 07-09-2015, 08:06 PM   #2168
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

^^

In terms of rake 180 mans have nothing on hu hypers (though both dont rake as much as spins). It is also way easier to make a bot for 180 mans than huhypers.

Also we are at the forefront of change in the poker industry. You can't just ignore what is happening in shortstacked hu games, then deepstacked hu games, and eventually in everything else.

Bot detection is the number 1 area that stars should be working on. They for sure don't have the technical know-how to handle it atm and need to increase the resources in this area.
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Old 07-09-2015, 08:16 PM   #2169
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by watergun7 View Post
You have a high chance of being right about with your first point. And if you are- computers would be better than any human at 100bb and maybe 200bb hu as well by that time. Making a program to max exploit opponent's deviations from GTO is also possible in theory, but in practice it's impossible based on hands played.
Data mining enables perfect exploitative play.

Quote:
I also don't see the relevance of this to the discussion ITT. Preflop chart banning is useless as I said before, and stars haven't said anything to actually show that they are dealing with current/potential botting.
The relevance is that Pokerstars stated a two year timeframe yet appears to show zero understanding of the current problem and no understanding of where this is heading.

Quote:
Originally Posted by watergun7 View Post
What stars needs to do is get up to date on bot detection. Maybe learn a thing or 2 from online chess or backgammon to prepare for the future tbh. Banning preflop charts is an unenforceable cosmetic treatment of the situation.
+1, plus eliminate data mining at all costs. HUDs out of the box from HEM/PT gain enormous power due to data mining enabling convergence of stats that are otherwise useless from one's own play. Pokerstars shows zero understanding of how powerful HEM/PT are out-of-the-box given mined data.
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Old 07-10-2015, 03:41 PM   #2170
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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AGREE, but keep Stove and Oracle.
Also is the existence of these "cartels" (with specialized software probably)

Just knowing about them makes me never wanna play those SNG ever.

I'm sure lots of other recs/regs agree when they realize there are playing versus "cartels".
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Old 07-10-2015, 06:09 PM   #2171
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Also is the existence of these "cartels" (with specialized software probably)

Just knowing about them makes me never wanna play those SNG ever.

I'm sure lots of other recs/regs agree when they realize there are playing versus "cartels".

Cartels are collusion. Poker is an individual game. Pokerstars should not allow groups of players to band together and run the games for their own profit and everyone else's loss.
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Old 07-10-2015, 06:41 PM   #2172
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Lets ban seating scripts so that everyone has a fair shot at accessing a seat before everyone jumps on to one table. It's not even hard to know who the seat scripters are.
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Old 07-10-2015, 09:14 PM   #2173
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by centebakkie View Post
Also is the existence of these "cartels" (with specialized software probably)

Just knowing about them makes me never wanna play those SNG ever.

I'm sure lots of other recs/regs agree when they realize there are playing versus "cartels".
If you are worried about playing someone better than you (ie be a massive bumhunter), I'd suggest playing HU cash and just sit out as soon as someone better sits you - that's what everyone else does.
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Old 07-11-2015, 12:00 AM   #2174
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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If you are worried about playing someone better than you (ie be a massive bumhunter), I'd suggest playing HU cash and just sit out as soon as someone better sits you - that's what everyone else does.
You can't sit out of the HU sngs. It's the cartel who are the bumhunters.
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Old 07-11-2015, 01:44 AM   #2175
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

If you can't sit out, you can't be a bumhunter
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