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Old 07-07-2015, 06:37 PM   #2126
punter11235
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
But the thing is no one really does that, regardless of the fact that they lose money because of that.
The point is that it's very possible to memorize all those preflop charts. That fact alone makes it completely impossible to detect breaking new rules with statistical analysis or anything else tbh unless you install a webcam or something in players' apartments.

So the smallest and least enforceable thing was banned while more powerful, easier to detect and prevent and having more impact on the game tools are untouched.

I don't like it, it seems like pandering to wishes of the vocal established group with little regards to the logic of the situation.

Nobody is putting their charts into a drawer today but a few honest players will not sleep that well.
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Old 07-07-2015, 08:53 PM   #2127
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Old 07-07-2015, 10:19 PM   #2128
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

nvm
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Old 07-07-2015, 11:06 PM   #2129
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by spacegravy View Post
I honestly would prefer that no one uses charts, but on some levels (charts including preflop stack depth) it is impossible to enforce and it is completely unfair to anyone following the rules.

Please only implement rules that you can actually enforce or it only makes the situation worse. Edges at high stakes are extremely thin and this rule simply rewards players not following the rules and hurts honest players.
Quote:
Originally Posted by skier_5 View Post
I agree completely. This move is just putting cheaters at an even bigger advantage.



And if the software happens to not be known and is used by one person? How do you propose they police that?
Quote:
Originally Posted by _dave_ View Post
Well no, you simply have to show them a picture, or send them a copy of the hard-copy you have in a ring binder. Or are printed charts easily accessible (see PS Team Pro blog pic earlier up thread) now also banned? We have no idea, of course.

And what if you do indeed have a freak memory? Or don't, yet have learned how to play by rote over many many hours of training? Should you also be banned? Simply for playing "too good" ?

This is a mess, and if ever there was a perfect example of a rule made for selective enforcement this is it.
+1
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Old 07-07-2015, 11:24 PM   #2130
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Translation of Pokerstars statement:

Quote:
Originally Posted by PokerStars Steve View Post
After thorough consideration of the input here
After not reading, not understanding, not analysing, not making any attempt to understand ...

Quote:
and a lengthy internal discussion, we’ve decided to move forward in principle with the changes proposed in the OP.
Pokerstars has decided to do what they were always going to do anyway.

And despite the changes proposed in the OP being ambiguous and vague...


Quote:
We still have some decisions to make regarding final wording
Owing to OP being meaninglessly vague Pokerstars will endeavour to make it more so before finalising...

Quote:
and also to make sure we are comfortable with our detection and enforcement capability.
Pokerstars is understandably unsure how to detect and enforce violations of the vague OP that can be easily be circumvented by running a second machine!

Quote:
In the meantime we will be in touch with some software developers regarding their existing applications to clarify which features might violate the upcoming rules so that they will have time to make the appropriate changes.
In the interests of appearing balanced Pokerstars intends to pick on someone other than Skier but we are not sure who to bully yet. But numerous software developers have contacted us to say, "WTF, you guys are idiots who understand nothing!"

Quote:
There is one immediate change to announce. The catalyst for this conversation was a particular piece of software that efficiently delivers relevant play recommendation charts for HUSNG. Effective immediately, we are ruling that this software can no longer be used while the PokerStars client is open.
In Pokerstars naive world, Skier's software is the root of all evil so obviously must be banned.

Quote:
In the past we had always allowed charts to be used for reference during play. A primary reason was that a player could simply print out a chart and we would not be able to detect it. Another was that the charts in use were limited in their impact on the game. Detailed charts that were complex enough to provide advice useful enough to be competitive against capable players were very limited in the breadth of situations covered, such as push-fold nash charts for HU play. Any charts covering the game more comprehensively, such as hand grouping charts with basic strategy, were not complex enough to cause an issue for game integrity.
Pokerstars had no idea there was anything wrong with Skier's software and hence approved it. Then all the cartels complained so we have banned it but we still don't know what we are doing.

Quote:
This new software framework could be used to replicate the utility of a complex bot in a chart format. It has greatly advanced the efficiency of chart retrieval and presentation to the point where we must take action.
Pokerstars admits they have no idea that what Skier has done is little different to what all the pros in HUSNGs are doing by other means.

Quote:
While there will be challenges with enforcement, we believe the cost of leaving this software allowable is too high.
POkerstars is nave enough to think a second machine can be somehow stopped.

Quote:
I want to make completely clear that we are headed firmly toward further restrictions on 3rd party software in the future.
Blah, blah, blah. Pokerstars intends to do nothing more than ban Skier's software. Please all go away and stop bothering us.

Quote:
There is a meaningful probability
Snowball's chance in hell is greater than zero...

Quote:
that within the next year or two our policies will be significantly more restrictive than even the proposal in the OP.
that within the next year or two you will have forgotten about all this...

Quote:
Our intent is to implement change gradually over time, ensuring that our internal detection and enforcement capabilities are able to keep up with the rules and that the community has adequate time to adjust.
Everyone move along, nothing to see here...

Quote:
I do not have anything to share about how far we might go in the future in our restriction of 3rd party software.
Pokerstars intends to do nothing about third party software... especially universal data mining, timewasting, collusive seating scripts, HEM2/PT4 functionality (which violate the vague OP no less than NC).

Quote:
We will continue to consider and evaluate additional information and input prior to making each and every decision.

Thanks to all who provided their thoughts and input on this topic.
Any requests you send to Pokerstars support will receive the standard reply:

Quote:
The software you mention is not against our TOS.
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Old 07-07-2015, 11:58 PM   #2131
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by watergun7 View Post
Yes I agree that with software assistance (read postflop assistance) 10bb poker is essentially solved. But for a human it's not. I haven't said anything about "my super poker skills"- that has nothing to do with it.

I'm just saying that the preflop thing is pretty trivial and impossible to police. I'm guessing that by now skier can reproduce most of what his software does preflop without any assistance to a high degree of accuracy (might be wrong if he doesn't play much any more- but his students should be able to).
Relative to 100BB poker, 10BB poker is trivial post-flop. Short stack-to-pot ratio polarises and forces most decisions. GTORB has a lot of flop scenarios dealing with 25BB stacks. HUSNG.com has a GTO pack based on GTORB.

In other words, if not solved now, watch this space! In the one to two year timeframe Steve of Pokerstars is giving themselves, HT HUSNG should be effectively solved and automated for both pre-and-post-flop.
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Old 07-08-2015, 12:40 AM   #2132
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrsPrinzess View Post
How can you say that i remember you are one of the persons that say sharky are the pure nuts. And then leave this commentar here LOL!
Yup, no one should be able to change their mind in 3 years.
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Old 07-08-2015, 12:41 AM   #2133
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by TimTamBiscuit View Post
Translation of Pokerstars statement:



After not reading, not understanding, not analysing, not making any attempt to understand ...



Pokerstars has decided to do what they were always going to do anyway.

And despite the changes proposed in the OP being ambiguous and vague...




Owing to OP being meaninglessly vague Pokerstars will endeavour to make it more so before finalising...



Pokerstars is understandably unsure how to detect and enforce violations of the vague OP that can be easily be circumvented by running a second machine!



In the interests of appearing balanced Pokerstars intends to pick on someone other than Skier but we are not sure who to bully yet. But numerous software developers have contacted us to say, "WTF, you guys are idiots who understand nothing!"



In Pokerstars naive world, Skier's software is the root of all evil so obviously must be banned.



Pokerstars had no idea there was anything wrong with Skier's software and hence approved it. Then all the cartels complained so we have banned it but we still don't know what we are doing.



Pokerstars admits they have no idea that what Skier has done is little different to what all the pros in HUSNGs are doing by other means.



POkerstars is nave enough to think a second machine can be somehow stopped.



Blah, blah, blah. Pokerstars intends to do nothing more than ban Skier's software. Please all go away and stop bothering us.



Snowball's chance in hell is greater than zero...



that within the next year or two you will have forgotten about all this...



Everyone move along, nothing to see here...


Pokerstars intends to do nothing about third party software... especially universal data mining, timewasting, collusive seating scripts, HEM2/PT4 functionality (which violate the vague OP no less than NC).



Any requests you send to Pokerstars support will receive the standard reply:
Except for the collusive comment, +1
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Old 07-08-2015, 03:20 AM   #2134
PokerIvey
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

PokerStars is a joke . I am a programmer. To write a program , which sends the hand history from one computer to another computer instant is very easily . There are only a few hours needed . How does will pokerstars check? I would not do something like that . But it is possible.... With this decision, the cheater can cheat further and the normal player get disadvantages....
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Old 07-08-2015, 04:45 AM   #2135
Lets
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by PokerIvey View Post
PokerStars is a joke . I am a programmer. To write a program , which sends the hand history from one computer to another computer instant is very easily . There are only a few hours needed . How does will pokerstars check? I would not do something like that . But it is possible.... With this decision, the cheater can cheat further and the normal player get disadvantages....
Actually, you don't need any kind of program. Just use cloud file services like dropbox.
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Old 07-08-2015, 05:03 AM   #2136
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lets View Post
Actually, you don't need any kind of program. Just use cloud file services like dropbox.
Or local file sharing that's already built into most modern OS.
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Old 07-08-2015, 05:15 AM   #2137
PokerIvey
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lets View Post
Actually, you don't need any kind of program. Just use cloud file services like dropbox.

But this is not automatic.... i think?
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Old 07-08-2015, 05:28 AM   #2138
authp
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by worried View Post
+1... or have a hud built into the software
+1
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Old 07-08-2015, 05:31 AM   #2139
0xRNG
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by PokerIvey View Post
PokerStars is a joke . I am a programmer. To write a program , which sends the hand history from one computer to another computer instant is very easily . There are only a few hours needed . How does will pokerstars check? I would not do something like that . But it is possible.... With this decision, the cheater can cheat further and the normal player get disadvantages....
Yeah, that would be so much worse than current state where even non programmers can cheat easily, wouldn't it?
In addition, to write such programs is very easy only because of current open PS client architecture, them basically providing a cheating and botting API. A well locked down client, combined with a well maintained anti cheat system like valve will force cheaters to use screen scraping for game data acquisition, because you will risk detection of PS client or client modifications.

In other words:
Current state:
I want to play charts, cheat, bot - ok just hook into NC, HEM or any other tool that is allowed. Want to automate pre flop play? trivial. Send game state to other computer? - trivial.

(hopefully) future state:
I want to cheat.... ok i better start screen scraping and deal with all the trouble that comes with it. Botting would become especially hard.

Main argument against software tool restrictions i see itt is that it would give cheaters even more advantage. But look at it form REC perspective who is not using any advanced software aid - they will profit a lot because their current disadvantage against augmented players will decrease while disadvantage against cheaters will stay the same.
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Old 07-08-2015, 06:04 AM   #2140
PokerIvey
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by 0xRNG View Post
Yeah, that would be so much worse than current state where even non programmers can cheat easily, wouldn't it?
In addition, to write such programs is very easy only because of current open PS client architecture, them basically providing a cheating and botting API. A well locked down client, combined with a well maintained anti cheat system like valve will force cheaters to use screen scraping for game data acquisition, because you will risk detection of PS client or client modifications.

In other words:
Current state:
I want to play charts, cheat, bot - ok just hook into NC, HEM or any other tool that is allowed. Want to automate pre flop play? trivial. Send game state to other computer? - trivial.

(hopefully) future state:
I want to cheat.... ok i better start screen scraping and deal with all the trouble that comes with it. Botting would become especially hard.

Main argument against software tool restrictions i see itt is that it would give cheaters even more advantage. But look at it form REC perspective who is not using any advanced software aid - they will profit a lot because their current disadvantage against augmented players will decrease while disadvantage against cheaters will stay the same.

i dont understand your argument, you say with the current state non-programmer cheating? NC is for all. With NC or other tools you can reduce the disadvatanges against ilegal cheater/programmer. Now Pokerstars declined it and all NC user get a very big disadvantage....

To the catching of cheating: I am java programmer and i dont think that the pokerstars client can get in to my .jar file ......it is impossible...for example.
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Old 07-08-2015, 06:45 AM   #2141
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by PokerIvey View Post
But this is not automatic.... i think?
Very automatic . You just choose in ps client to save your hand histories into your dropbox folder and thats all. Hh files will appear on both computers.

Actually you don't even need dropbox. Just share your folder in the local network.
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Old 07-08-2015, 06:52 AM   #2142
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by PokerIvey View Post
i dont understand your argument, you say with the current state non-programmer cheating? NC is for all. With NC or other tools you can reduce the disadvatanges against ilegal cheater/programmer. Now Pokerstars declined it and all NC user get a very big disadvantage....

To the catching of cheating: I am java programmer and i dont think that the pokerstars client can get in to my .jar file ......it is impossible...for example.
With current state it is trivial to cheat, even for a non technically skilled person. So it should be made harder - wich is only possible with locked down PS client.

If your argument is that tools like HUDs and NC are necessary so we don't get crushed by cheaters and bots, than such tools should be build in in PS to guarantee a fair gaming environment. Free, or as in app purchase in closed ecosystem PS-Appstore, idc.

And good luck with your .jar file vs secure client and vac-system
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Old 07-08-2015, 08:23 AM   #2143
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by punter11235 View Post
Statistical analysis may bring some fruit when it comes to postflop but preflop it will be just a witch-hunt.
Shocking that the unbiased person that understands this situation equal to or better than anyone else agrees.
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Old 07-08-2015, 09:10 AM   #2144
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

don't understand what all the raving is about in some cases. NOTHING changed!? yet at least.
To me it reads like:
If maybe in the future could should might want to... if possible.

Like a fat person saying I only drink diet cola or a smoker getting light cigarettes, so I'm good
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Old 07-08-2015, 12:24 PM   #2145
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by TimTamBiscuit View Post
Relative to 100BB poker, 10BB poker is trivial post-flop. Short stack-to-pot ratio polarises and forces most decisions. GTORB has a lot of flop scenarios dealing with 25BB stacks. HUSNG.com has a GTO pack based on GTORB.

In other words, if not solved now, watch this space! In the one to two year timeframe Steve of Pokerstars is giving themselves, HT HUSNG should be effectively solved and automated for both pre-and-post-flop.
U don't say 10bb poker is easier than 100bb... And we are just talking about 10bb. Husngs are anything below 25bb, and the play changes drastically from stacksize to stacksize.

<25bb poker is already close to solved as far as a human playing vs a computer if that's what you want to know. If there was a <25bb hu challenge tomorrow a la claudico, humans wouldn't stand a chance.

But human vs human play there is a LOT of edge, and most of it has nothing to do with preflop. THAT was my point. Banning these charts won't make a huge difference to the skier group, and will only encourage cheaters.
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Old 07-08-2015, 12:30 PM   #2146
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by PokerStars Steve View Post
After thorough consideration of the input here and a lengthy internal discussion, weve decided to move forward in principle with the changes proposed in the OP. We still have some decisions to make regarding final wording and also to make sure we are comfortable with our detection and enforcement capability. In the meantime we will be in touch with some software developers regarding their existing applications to clarify which features might violate the upcoming rules so that they will have time to make the appropriate changes.

There is one immediate change to announce. The catalyst for this conversation was a particular piece of software that efficiently delivers relevant play recommendation charts for HUSNG. Effective immediately, we are ruling that this software can no longer be used while the PokerStars client is open.

In the past we had always allowed charts to be used for reference during play. A primary reason was that a player could simply print out a chart and we would not be able to detect it. Another was that the charts in use were limited in their impact on the game. Detailed charts that were complex enough to provide advice useful enough to be competitive against capable players were very limited in the breadth of situations covered, such as push-fold nash charts for HU play. Any charts covering the game more comprehensively, such as hand grouping charts with basic strategy, were not complex enough to cause an issue for game integrity.

This new software framework could be used to replicate the utility of a complex bot in a chart format. It has greatly advanced the efficiency of chart retrieval and presentation to the point where we must take action. While there will be challenges with enforcement, we believe the cost of leaving this software allowable is too high.

I want to make completely clear that we are headed firmly toward further restrictions on 3rd party software in the future. There is a meaningful probability that within the next year or two our policies will be significantly more restrictive than even the proposal in the OP. Our intent is to implement change gradually over time, ensuring that our internal detection and enforcement capabilities are able to keep up with the rules and that the community has adequate time to adjust.

I do not have anything to share about how far we might go in the future in our restriction of 3rd party software. We will continue to consider and evaluate additional information and input prior to making each and every decision.

Thanks to all who provided their thoughts and input on this topic.
This is good news. For the health of the game I feel it's imperative that third-party software is heavily restricted. Give me a time-bank and a bottle to piss in and I can happily grind all day.
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Old 07-08-2015, 01:39 PM   #2147
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Pee bottles should be built into the client so the site can keep taking the piss out of its customers.
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Old 07-08-2015, 02:25 PM   #2148
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by MeleaB View Post
This is good news. For the health of the game I feel it's imperative that third-party software is heavily restricted. Give me a time-bank and a bottle to piss in and I can happily grind all day.
This is imperative. I once used my water glass and guess what happened a few hours later when I was really thirsty?
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Old 07-08-2015, 02:27 PM   #2149
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Seems like a solid response, hopefully they fulfill the implications of their post. This is roughly the best response the anti-hud crowd could reasonably expect.
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Old 07-08-2015, 02:42 PM   #2150
TooCuriousso1
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by TimTamBiscuit View Post
Translation of Pokerstars statement:



After not reading, not understanding, not analysing, not making any attempt to understand ...


Pokerstars has decided to do what they were always going to do anyway.

And despite the changes proposed in the OP being ambiguous and vague...


Owing to OP being meaninglessly vague Pokerstars will endeavour to make it more so before finalising...

Pokerstars is understandably unsure how to detect and enforce violations of the vague OP that can be easily be circumvented by running a second machine!


In the interests of appearing balanced Pokerstars intends to pick on someone other than Skier but we are not sure who to bully yet. But numerous software developers have contacted us to say, "WTF, you guys are idiots who understand nothing!"


In Pokerstars naive world, Skier's software is the root of all evil so obviously must be banned.



Pokerstars had no idea there was anything wrong with Skier's software and hence approved it. Then all the cartels complained so we have banned it but we still don't know what we are doing.


Pokerstars admits they have no idea that what Skier has done is little different to what all the pros in HUSNGs are doing by other means.


POkerstars is nave enough to think a second machine can be somehow stopped.



Blah, blah, blah. Pokerstars intends to do nothing more than ban Skier's software. Please all go away and stop bothering us.


Snowball's chance in hell is greater than zero...


that within the next year or two you will have forgotten about all this...


Everyone move along, nothing to see here...


Pokerstars intends to do nothing about third party software... especially universal data mining, timewasting, collusive seating scripts, HEM2/PT4 functionality (which violate the vague OP no less than NC).


Any requests you send to Pokerstars support will receive the standard reply:
haha yeah this is a pretty solid translation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by spacegravy View Post
Shocking that the unbiased person that understands this situation equal to or better than anyone else agrees.
yup
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