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Old 07-07-2015, 09:11 AM   #2101
LeaksSuck
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by M_Acevedo View Post
Just make a list of allowed software and anything that is not on the list is banned, so if a new software comes out the developers will have to contact you to get it added to the list if you think is within the T&C
This is the right way to do it imo!
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Old 07-07-2015, 09:47 AM   #2102
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

yippee!!!

Yahoo!! on the future having more restrictions.
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Old 07-07-2015, 09:58 AM   #2103
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

this is great news (for now) and hopefully stars will go further in the near future
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Old 07-07-2015, 10:26 AM   #2104
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by skier_5 View Post
And if the software happens to not be known and is used by one person? How do you propose they police that?
In theory, you compare the single player's stats for the subset of the game that is solved eg pre-flop shove/call by stacksize to theoretically perfect HUSNG poker. Within a certain error margin a player falls under suspicion then requiring proof the player is capable of such stats unaided eg proof by live camera or proof by human on-site observation.
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Old 07-07-2015, 10:34 AM   #2105
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Your example of preflop shove/fold is not very good. Most players (even mtt regs) knows it pretty much by heart.
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Old 07-07-2015, 11:13 AM   #2106
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

And skier's point is that no one has access to gto charts, but ppl have different models out already.

Skier's charts were put into the spotlight, and his method of chart retrieval showed the potential of what could be done.

Stars have banned this, but have a limited way of enforcing it thus giving cheaters an advantage.
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Old 07-07-2015, 11:44 AM   #2107
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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The same goes for these damn charts - can anyone in the world actually explain why a push with 96o is +EV for 2.6-5.9 bbs and -EV outside that precise interval? I think it's obvious the example I gave is bs, I have no idea about the specific calculations, but I think my point is clear - it's info that drives specific action on your part, but the info is not based on human poker logic, but simulations and calculations that no human will ever be able to do on his own..
I mean, I'm not even sure what to say to the suggestion that a single human cannot derive the depth that 96o no longer becomes a profitable shove and why that is the case...
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Old 07-07-2015, 11:48 AM   #2108
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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So to whoever intends on using this kind of programs on a second computer - good luck trying to convince PS that you just have some kind of freak superhuman memory when they ban your ass after they see that pattern in your game.
It's not that much data. Someone dedicated to memorizing it and having some experience with memory work could have it in their head within few days. Then you can learn from the same material than others. A set of preflop charts is really small amount of info comparing to what people are able to memorize.
Are you going to call them and quiz them?

Statistical analysis may bring some fruit when it comes to postflop but preflop it will be just a witch-hunt.
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Old 07-07-2015, 12:21 PM   #2109
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by Bluenowhere View Post
I mean, I'm not even sure what to say to the suggestion that a single human cannot derive the depth that 96o no longer becomes a profitable shove and why that is the case...
You missed the point completely, but I'm not surprised at all, it just shows you don't understand what an example is and how to infer from it. I intentionally chose a "neutral" hand to point out it's impossible for a human to really derive at what effective stack sizes a push with such a hand becomes better than a fold. Is it between 3 and 6.5 bbs? Is it between 4 and 8? Or between 2.9 and 5.6? I'd bet that if I ask you at what threshold in bbs a push with 84o becomes profitable you wouldn't know the exact answer. Or 92s. Or T5o. And that is the point that you completely missed.

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It's not that much data. Someone dedicated to memorizing it and having some experience with memory work could have it in their head within few days. Then you can learn from the same material than others.
I agree there's a lot of data people can memorize if they put their mind to it. But the thing is no one really does that, regardless of the fact that they lose money because of that. And then this new software or binder of charts or w/e becomes available and now everyone knows how to play mathematically perfect in a lot of spots. No, I'm not saying just using charts instantly makes you a winner. But do steroids make you a winner instantly or do you still have to put the work in?

In the end, when it comes to push/fold charts it all comes down to the fact that this particular form of poker (HUSNGs with baby stacks) is either solved or very close to it. And that means it is essentially dead. It's as simple as that, really. Yeah, people will still argue, will still hang on to whatever arguments they can find to fight against the fact that the very math that solved the game for them solved the game for everyone else and destroyed the format as a result. However PS decides to tackle this, however the players that play them cope with the new rules - I don't really care, to be honest. I'm just happy I didn't settle for a form of poker that was overcome by math and computers 10 years after online poker kicked off. And really, the hints were there all along..
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Old 07-07-2015, 12:33 PM   #2110
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

It's no where near close to dead. You can ask the top players how far they think they are from GTO and they will tell u that they would be crushed vs a perfect villain even at shallow stacks.

If you pull out perfect gto preflop charts from a hat you will still be crushed by most 200s+ regs unless you have also done extensive study for postflop play, which is the essential part of poker no matter how short.
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Old 07-07-2015, 12:36 PM   #2111
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by devera View Post
I'd bet that if I ask you at what threshold in bbs a push with 84o becomes profitable you wouldn't know the exact answer. Or 92s. Or T5o. And that is the point that you completely missed
I would bet you he would be able to.
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Old 07-07-2015, 12:52 PM   #2112
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by PokerIvey View Post
There are so many opportunities for scam. What is, if someone writes a program/script which sent the hand history automatically instand from one computer to another computer . And on the second computer, there is analyzing tool...? The difference between scam and not scam would bigger.....
This and others posts quote.

I hope the your restrictions will be effective. This could be real only work with SW distribution, clients, etc having control by ip andress.
Moreover imo it's very important to ban skype/teamviewer/mikogo etc etc when pokerstars is running, that's more important that ban sw as well.

To the end don't forget that the real problem here are bots, sharing, collusion, and all the wrong marketing proposals (spin&go, slot, casino...).
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Old 07-07-2015, 12:57 PM   #2113
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by watergun7 View Post
It's no where near close to dead. You can ask the top players how far they think they are from GTO and they will tell u that they would be crushed vs a perfect villain even at shallow stacks.

If you pull out perfect gto preflop charts from a hat you will still be crushed by most 200s+ regs unless you have also done extensive study for postflop play, which is the essential part of poker no matter how short.
Ok, w/e. Why do I even argue about general concepts and prniciples with people that are clearly extremely biased and can only see one single step ahead, I don't know..

And that "perfect villain" that you talk about - don't worry, it's right around the corner. And to be honest, I am really glad for that. People that are so adamant about their super poker "skillz" that begin to talk about how essential post flop game is at a game with 10 bbs effective stacks really need something to smack them back into reality. Won't be long now, I'm sure some Russians groups are working hard towards the new snowie.husngs.moscow that will put the final nail in the coffin. I'd try to learn other forms of poker if I were you. Careful though, there are no charts there..
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Old 07-07-2015, 01:13 PM   #2114
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

How are you guys gonna analyz your game if they ban all software out there in a year or two?

Ups, nevermind, 99.9% of you here never analyzed a single hand.
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Old 07-07-2015, 01:14 PM   #2115
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Yes I agree that with software assistance (read postflop assistance) 10bb poker is essentially solved. But for a human it's not. I haven't said anything about "my super poker skills"- that has nothing to do with it.

I'm just saying that the preflop thing is pretty trivial and impossible to police. I'm guessing that by now skier can reproduce most of what his software does preflop without any assistance to a high degree of accuracy (might be wrong if he doesn't play much any more- but his students should be able to).
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Old 07-07-2015, 01:25 PM   #2116
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by ChalkOutline View Post
How are you guys gonna analyz your game if they ban all software out there in a year or two?

Ups, nevermind, 99.9% of you here never analyzed a single hand.
Zing
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Old 07-07-2015, 01:27 PM   #2117
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

So at a time we have a huge botting scandal on Stars people seem to believe that somehow they will catch anyone using (newly) prohibited software using statistical analysis? Seriously?
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Old 07-07-2015, 02:06 PM   #2118
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by _dave_ View Post
This is a mess, and if ever there was a perfect example of a rule made for selective enforcement this is it.
I agree, thing is, majority doesn't seem to have a problem with this and giving thumbs up. It feels like especially those that do intend to follow the rules are worried about getting freerolled by cheaters.

In a competitive environment, where cheating is accessible to everybody and hard to detect, sooner or later there'll be more cheaters than honest players. Especially if players suspect their opponents are doing it as well.
Datamining is an excellent example of this. Nobody is complaining though, cause everybody can cheat equally and therefore everybody's guilty. Hence, enforceability should be one of the highest priorities, it 'not being totally enforceable' is not just a downside!

I wish stars would have more actively contributed to the discussion before their decision, and I would really like to see them respond to the issues brought up here with regards to the proposed changes.

In general I'm not worried too much about the limitations they are gonna put on software. Moreover, I think it's necessary and a good thing for online poker if done correctly. The only thing that I'm worried about, is cheating ppl gaining an advantage, and having to work three times as hard to counter that, if possible at all.
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Old 07-07-2015, 02:29 PM   #2119
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by devera View Post
You missed the point completely, but I'm not surprised at all, it just shows you don't understand what an example is and how to infer from it. I intentionally chose a "neutral" hand to point out it's impossible for a human to really derive at what effective stack sizes a push with such a hand becomes better than a fold. Is it between 3 and 6.5 bbs? Is it between 4 and 8? Or between 2.9 and 5.6? I'd bet that if I ask you at what threshold in bbs a push with 84o becomes profitable you wouldn't know the exact answer. Or 92s. Or T5o. And that is the point that you completely missed.
I am pretty sure I understand how examples work, yours was just a pretty awful one that absolutely did not prove your point and I am genuinely bemused by your thoughts on poker. You truly believe that it is impossible to work out when push is better than fold for 96o/84o/92s/T5o? You don't even need a calculator to do that, it can be done with a pen and paper if you can be bothered and understand basic mental arithmetic.
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Old 07-07-2015, 03:18 PM   #2120
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

hahaha wp. stars pulled this stunt solely to protect the cartels anyone?
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Old 07-07-2015, 03:34 PM   #2121
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by Cog Dissonance View Post
Stars go further please. Ban ALL software including huds. Make poker pure again.
How can you say that i remember you are one of the persons that say sharky are the pure nuts. And then leave this commentar here LOL!
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Old 07-07-2015, 04:03 PM   #2122
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

I don't see their point in banning something that can't be enforced.
Plus with all other more dangerous poker program's available that destroy the poker economy, stars decided to ban only the guy's software that started beating the cartel regs.. wow.. gg stars..
Just stop giving hand histories in real time + ban all HUDs and you prolong the life on online poker.

Last edited by Apollyon1; 07-07-2015 at 04:08 PM.
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Old 07-07-2015, 04:06 PM   #2123
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by PokerStars Steve View Post
I want to make completely clear that we are headed firmly toward further restrictions on 3rd party software in the future. There is a meaningful probability that within the next year or two our policies will be significantly more restrictive than even the proposal in the OP. Our intent is to implement change gradually over time, ensuring that our internal detection and enforcement capabilities are able to keep up with the rules and that the community has adequate time to adjust.
This is a welcome development. Thanks for that. I hope that further reviews will be undertaken, because it appears that much more needs to be done. The problem of enforcement is particularly troublesome, as noted in this thread and the original one in NVG.

I can't help but feel that Skier (who has been very open and forthcoming about his use of software) and his small team of students are being unfairly punished, while much larger groups of software-using players that adversely affect long-term liquidity are allowed to continue as normal.
Richas's summary seems apt:
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Originally Posted by Richas View Post
Without a bit more detail it bolis down to - we have changed our mind on Skier's software (because it is effective and pissed off a cartel) but have chosen to completely ignore that SpinWiz is a tool designed for cheating.
It's hard not to be cynical at this juncture, because until more dramatic steps are taken, it really looks like...
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stars pulled this stunt solely to protect the cartels
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Old 07-07-2015, 04:17 PM   #2124
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by ArtyMcFly View Post
I can't help but feel that Skier (who has been very open and forthcoming about his use of software) and his small team of students are being unfairly punished, while much larger groups of software-using players that adversely affect long-term liquidity are allowed to continue as normal.
In fairness yes Skier has behaved in an honorable way, he has not or i have not seen him, play political spin to play a bait and switch move. he has liaised with pokerstars before using the software in play and has been honest the whole way.

Whilst I disagree with Skier's software been used he has only behaved in a respectable way.

However the threat of allowing such software to be used going forward, weather available to all or in the case which is worse available to only a select few is not good for the going concern of online poker.
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Old 07-07-2015, 04:21 PM   #2125
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by ChalkOutline View Post
How are you guys gonna analyz your game if they ban all software out there in a year or two?

Ups, nevermind, 99.9% of you here never analyzed a single hand.
my personal feeling is that all software should be banned for in game play. but hand histories should be available upon request to be added to data base.

this has the benefits of allowing players to check the game is fair in terms of both RNG and no cheating or bots from opponents, but does not allow people to have an insurmountable advantage against there opponents.
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