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Old 07-07-2015, 12:06 AM   #2076
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

OK

It appears to be quite the conundrum.
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Old 07-07-2015, 01:16 AM   #2077
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

great news!
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Old 07-07-2015, 01:17 AM   #2078
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by PokerStars Steve View Post
After thorough consideration of the input here and a lengthy internal discussion, we’ve decided to move forward in principle with the changes proposed in the OP. We still have some decisions to make regarding final wording and also to make sure we are comfortable with our detection and enforcement capability. In the meantime we will be in touch with some software developers regarding their existing applications to clarify which features might violate the upcoming rules so that they will have time to make the appropriate changes.

There is one immediate change to announce. The catalyst for this conversation was a particular piece of software that efficiently delivers relevant play recommendation charts for HUSNG. Effective immediately, we are ruling that this software can no longer be used while the PokerStars client is open.

In the past we had always allowed charts to be used for reference during play. A primary reason was that a player could simply print out a chart and we would not be able to detect it. Another was that the charts in use were limited in their impact on the game. Detailed charts that were complex enough to provide advice useful enough to be competitive against capable players were very limited in the breadth of situations covered, such as push-fold nash charts for HU play. Any charts covering the game more comprehensively, such as hand grouping charts with basic strategy, were not complex enough to cause an issue for game integrity.

This new software framework could be used to replicate the utility of a complex bot in a chart format. It has greatly advanced the efficiency of chart retrieval and presentation to the point where we must take action. While there will be challenges with enforcement, we believe the cost of leaving this software allowable is too high.

I want to make completely clear that we are headed firmly toward further restrictions on 3rd party software in the future. There is a meaningful probability that within the next year or two our policies will be significantly more restrictive than even the proposal in the OP. Our intent is to implement change gradually over time, ensuring that our internal detection and enforcement capabilities are able to keep up with the rules and that the community has adequate time to adjust.

I do not have anything to share about how far we might go in the future in our restriction of 3rd party software. We will continue to consider and evaluate additional information and input prior to making each and every decision.

Thanks to all who provided their thoughts and input on this topic.

Hello Steve,

Does that also apply for Full Tilt Poker?

I think this is a bad decision... How will you solve the problem, if someone uses a second computer? Maybe the tool of Skier... I think the difference between scam and not scam would now bigger....bye bye pokerstars...
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Old 07-07-2015, 01:38 AM   #2079
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

There are so many opportunities for scam. What is, if someone writes a program/script which sent the hand history automatically instand from one computer to another computer . And on the second computer, there is analyzing tool...? The difference between scam and not scam would bigger.....
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Old 07-07-2015, 02:08 AM   #2080
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Stars go further please. Ban ALL software including huds. Make poker pure again.
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Old 07-07-2015, 02:12 AM   #2081
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

+1... or have a hud built into the software
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Old 07-07-2015, 02:36 AM   #2082
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by PokerIvey View Post
Hello Steve,

Does that also apply for Full Tilt Poker?

I think this is a bad decision... How will you solve the problem, if someone uses a second computer? Maybe the tool of Skier... I think the difference between scam and not scam would now bigger....bye bye pokerstars...
Bigger difference makes cheaters stand out more and easier to detect for stat experts like Schwein
Some will always find way to cheat, e.g. via screen scraping methods or voice controlled app for in game advices... but a locked down PS client would make many methods of cheating and botting much much harder and give online poker back some time.
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Old 07-07-2015, 05:37 AM   #2083
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by PokerStars Steve View Post
A. The following types of tools and services are prohibited only whilst the client is open:
1. Any tool or reference material that offers commentary or advice that goes beyond a basic level, such as stack-size-based starting hand tables
I honestly would prefer that no one uses charts, but on some levels (charts including preflop stack depth) it is impossible to enforce and it is completely unfair to anyone following the rules.

Please only implement rules that you can actually enforce or it only makes the situation worse. Edges at high stakes are extremely thin and this rule simply rewards players not following the rules and hurts honest players.
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Old 07-07-2015, 05:37 AM   #2084
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

You made the best decision under the circumstances.
I like the fact that you mentioned/warned that there will be further restrictions on 3rd party tools in the future, eventually most tools will have to go but you can't just do that overnight.
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Old 07-07-2015, 06:15 AM   #2085
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

So after all that the original changes will be implemented but at some point in the next few years further changes may follow.

Opportunity missed.
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Old 07-07-2015, 06:22 AM   #2086
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by spacegravy View Post
I honestly would prefer that no one uses charts, but on some levels (charts including preflop stack depth) it is impossible to enforce and it is completely unfair to anyone following the rules.

Please only implement rules that you can actually enforce or it only makes the situation worse. Edges at high stakes are extremely thin and this rule simply rewards players not following the rules and hurts honest players.
exactly this
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Old 07-07-2015, 06:23 AM   #2087
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by PokerStars Steve View Post
There is one immediate change to announce. The catalyst for this conversation was a particular piece of software that efficiently delivers relevant play recommendation charts for HUSNG. Effective immediately, we are ruling that this software can no longer be used while the PokerStars client is open.

.
Just make a list of allowed software and anything that is not on the list is banned, so if a new software comes out the developers will have to contact you to get it added to the list if you think is within the T&C
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Old 07-07-2015, 06:26 AM   #2088
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by PokerStars Steve View Post
The catalyst for this conversation was a particular piece of software that efficiently delivers relevant play recommendation charts for HUSNG. Effective immediately, we are ruling that this software can no longer be used while the PokerStars client is open.
What you did, is just calm the communty... now no-software users feel that they have win, while the outcome is much worse... cheaters are going to cheat more.
If you want to ban something, make sure you can enforce it. I'm really interested how you are going to enforce Skier's software

Last edited by 4-Star General; 07-07-2015 at 06:37 AM.
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Old 07-07-2015, 06:55 AM   #2089
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

I don't see enforceability as an issue. Once software has been deemed bad for the game, a ban will cause fewer people to use it, and that in itself is a good result.
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Old 07-07-2015, 07:00 AM   #2090
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4-Star General View Post
What you did, is just calm the communty... now no-software users feel that they have win, while the outcome is much worse... cheaters are going to cheat more.
If you want to ban something, make sure you can enforce it. I'm really interested how you are going to enforce Skier's software
You can't enforce a ban on the generic category of voice-activated software: one can simply run it on a second computer where it is technically impossible to detect it.

I expect Pokerstars is instead planning to enforce the software usage ban by banning players who exhibit near identical stats for a subset of the game (eg pre-flop shoves/calls in HUSNGs) as a result of inferred use of known banned voice-activated software.
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Old 07-07-2015, 07:14 AM   #2091
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Yes, I imagine that's exactly how they're gonna do it. That's how they detect cheaters in chess too - statistical analysis. Yeah, I know, poker is not chess etc, but the point stands - a statistical analysis can detect if a player is playing bot-like, period.

So to whoever intends on using this kind of programs on a second computer - good luck trying to convince PS that you just have some kind of freak superhuman memory when they ban your ass after they see that pattern in your game.

GG PS, heading into the right direction. The first step is always is hardest.
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Old 07-07-2015, 07:16 AM   #2092
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by spacegravy View Post
I honestly would prefer that no one uses charts, but on some levels (charts including preflop stack depth) it is impossible to enforce and it is completely unfair to anyone following the rules.

Please only implement rules that you can actually enforce or it only makes the situation worse. Edges at high stakes are extremely thin and this rule simply rewards players not following the rules and hurts honest players.
Quote:
Originally Posted by _dave_ View Post
exactly this
I agree completely. This move is just putting cheaters at an even bigger advantage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TimTamBiscuit View Post
You can't enforce a ban on the generic category of voice-activated software: one can simply run it on a second computer where it is technically impossible to detect it.

I expect Pokerstars is instead planning to enforce the software usage ban by banning players who exhibit near identical stats for a subset of the game (eg pre-flop shoves/calls in HUSNGs) as a result of inferred use of known banned voice-activated software.
And if the software happens to not be known and is used by one person? How do you propose they police that?
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Old 07-07-2015, 07:29 AM   #2093
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

so basically at this moment, nothing change except skyer's program is not allowed anymore. All other programs are ok while giving time to adjust for s/w suppliers?
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Old 07-07-2015, 07:30 AM   #2094
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

As predicted - this is largely a holding statement. The mess is just too big for solving in a week or two.

I know you do not want to add more Steve but in your discussions with third party provders will you be looking at how to
  • verify data used by approved apps?
  • restrict dynamic elements within HUDs (different data for different players based upon the player data)?
  • get approved apps to sign up to social reponsibility(anti cheating) conditions
  • co-operate/liase with regulators (primarily the UKGC)?
  • explore UKGC software supplier licencing for approved third party suppliers?

In addition will we have greater clarity on the relationship between Stars and approved suppliers, ie technical support provided, payments made by either party, development deals for future products (like Zoom, launched with a HUD)?

Without a bit more detail it bolis down to - we have changed our mind on Skier's software (because it is effective and pissed off a cartel) but have chosen to completely ignore that SpinWiz is a tool designed for cheating.

Last edited by Richas; 07-07-2015 at 07:37 AM.
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Old 07-07-2015, 07:34 AM   #2095
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by skier_5 View Post
I agree completely. This move is just putting cheaters at an even bigger advantage.



And if the software happens to not be known and is used by one person? How do you propose they police that?
no way to police that, but damage will be reduced by factor n with only one person using it instead a group of n persons i guess
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Old 07-07-2015, 07:37 AM   #2096
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by devera View Post
So to whoever intends on using this kind of programs on a second computer - good luck trying to convince PS that you just have some kind of freak superhuman memory when they ban your ass after they see that pattern in your game.
Well no, you simply have to show them a picture, or send them a copy of the hard-copy you have in a ring binder. Or are printed charts easily accessible (see PS Team Pro blog pic earlier up thread) now also banned? We have no idea, of course.

And what if you do indeed have a freak memory? Or don't, yet have learned how to play by rote over many many hours of training? Should you also be banned? Simply for playing "too good" ?

This is a mess, and if ever there was a perfect example of a rule made for selective enforcement this is it.
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Old 07-07-2015, 07:45 AM   #2097
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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no way to police that, but damage will be reduced by factor n with only one person using it instead a group of n persons i guess
That is possible, but it is also possible that said cheaters will make an effort to make their charts different enough so that they may escape detection. It's also possible that the individuals who are using charts to cheat will thrive and thus a large portion of the player pool that survives will be using charts as well. Let's not forget that in the case where charts are allowed, everyone can use them and this alone can mitigate 'damage' since there are charts publicly available which provide a very robust preflop strategy. In the case of creating a very restrictive chart rule, the gap between non cheaters and cheaters will be much wider, and also the gap between professionals who have a solid grasp on their preflop strategy and part time players who do not have the same amount of time at their disposal to study their preflop strategy will be even bigger. This gap narrows should the part time players be allowed to use some charts.
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Old 07-07-2015, 07:58 AM   #2098
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Kinda seems like we're (implicitly) heading towards a situation where it's like, 'You can make your own software, up to and including a bot, but just don't share it with anyone or run it on multiple accounts.'
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Old 07-07-2015, 08:09 AM   #2099
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by _dave_ View Post

This is a mess, and if ever there was a perfect example of a rule made for selective enforcement this is it.
+1
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_enforcement
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Old 07-07-2015, 09:03 AM   #2100
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by _dave_ View Post
Well no, you simply have to show them a picture, or send them a copy of the hard-copy you have in a ring binder. Or are printed charts easily accessible (see PS Team Pro blog pic earlier up thread) now also banned? We have no idea, of course.

And what if you do indeed have a freak memory? Or don't, yet have learned how to play by rote over many many hours of training? Should you also be banned? Simply for playing "too good" ?
I really think it's more constructive to not use absurd made up examples as a form of counter-argument. There's nobody on this planet that can memorize that sort of dry-as-Sahara-desert info, tens of charts with different stack sizes for every conceivable situation, so I would ease off on the "what if you do have a freak memory" argument.

I agree that the subject of charts is a nasty one, but the point is to not let players use too much info that is simply dry as fk and not based on human poker logic.

See chess end game tables, for example - ALL chess positions with 7 or less pieces on the board (including kings) have been solved (Nalimov, Lomonosov tablebases), resulting in sequences of hundreds of moves in some cases, that no human can ever come up with, on his own. So the game is essentially solved for all positions with 7 pieces at most and this number (7) will continue to increase as computers become more and more powerful. But at that point that doesn't "feel" like chess anymore, although it's played with the same equipment and following the same rules. You don't really understand why a certain move is better than another one, as that end result is miles away, so to speak. The move simply is better than any other move, because the computer analyzed all possible scenarios and picked the best one.

The same goes for these damn charts - can anyone in the world actually explain why a push with 96o is +EV for 2.6-5.9 bbs and -EV outside that precise interval? I think it's obvious the example I gave is bs, I have no idea about the specific calculations, but I think my point is clear - it's info that drives specific action on your part, but the info is not based on human poker logic, but simulations and calculations that no human will ever be able to do on his own. Yes, I agree that with a lot of work and a lot of experience, players can develop that sense of knowing when it's better to push with 96o instead of folding, but the point is no human will EVER know what to do with all possible holdings in all possible effective stack situations, regardless of how much he works off the table and how much he plays. And he will come to a somewhat wrong (or not perfect) decision enough times that he still shows his humane nature, which is prone to error, unlike skier's program or a whiteboard fill with A4 sheets or a neatly organized binder or w/e. And I am convinced some sort of smart statistical analysis can detect if someone is using (or let's say abusing of) these sort of tools.
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