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Old 07-04-2015, 04:44 AM   #2051
LukeSilver
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by cneuy3 View Post
Also, maybe someone could answer me this question. PokerStars seems so worried that Player A can still tell his friend, "Hey come rail me, I'm winning big." Why not introduce some sort of "invite" feature into the client rather than "search" or "find" player, or "find" tourney ID. How hard would this be to create in the client?

Is it possible that they could make all tables unobservable to anyone not in the game but have it as "invite only" so a player not in the game has to be first invited to be an observer by a player currently playing in that game? They would be able to monitor this a bit more and would have access to everyone watching every game rather than the way it is right now where I can be completely logged out of the client yet click on a table and, watch the game and get the "Instant Hand History".......lol
actually thats not a bad idea.
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Old 07-04-2015, 07:00 AM   #2052
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

I would just do away with any kind of HH. Do more harm than good imo.

Right now you have to become a cyborg to play the games in equal conditions as the other regs.
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Old 07-04-2015, 08:13 AM   #2053
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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actually thats not a bad idea.
The problem is that railing games is attractive and potential draw for new deposits.
I think limiting observers to registered users would be a good first step another one could be limiting it to verified users (so ones who made at least one deposit or something).
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Old 07-04-2015, 08:56 AM   #2054
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by heathen1 View Post
What about if you faced being banned for life from watching a movie made in hollywood? Would you still pirate the movie? Obv I know this is impossible ,and far fetched, im just using it as an example. Just changing the t&c would deter 80%+ people from using the software that is on the ban list.Then stars could catch a small %and ud really just have a tiny number of people using banned software.
Do u understand many people who crak programs dont give a care and some do it for fun ????

They can datamine enter the client and dont give a f++ cuz they dont even play poker , this is quite obvious imo

and its impossible stars will be hacking inside private pcs to investigate what each of the 1000000 clients are doing
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Old 07-04-2015, 01:41 PM   #2055
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by matteroftime View Post
Pokerstars says...
The fundamental problem is that the games can be observed. Anybody can load up a PokerStars client and observe a game in progress, and see the game play as it goes. They can also view the hand history immediately after the hand, in the "Instant Hand History" window.

Allowing observers to view the games prior to their play is a fundamental feature of the software that cannot be removed.
I sighed.
They admit that the "fundamental problem" is that games can be observed by anybody (i.e. any hand-grabbing bot), but then claim that this "fundamental feature" cannot be removed.
Pro-tip: If you make the software, and there is a fundamental problem with one of its features, you can change the software!

I'm not sure if it's caused by arrogance or complacency, but Stars has lost touch with its customers.
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Old 07-04-2015, 02:05 PM   #2056
paletokio
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

how about: new players register to be able to rail games for limited time, after that invite only.
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Old 07-04-2015, 05:01 PM   #2057
TheDefiniteArticle
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by ArtyMcFly View Post
I sighed.
They admit that the "fundamental problem" is that games can be observed by anybody (i.e. any hand-grabbing bot), but then claim that this "fundamental feature" cannot be removed.
Pro-tip: If you make the software, and there is a fundamental problem with one of its features, you can change the software!

I'm not sure if it's caused by arrogance or complacency, but Stars has lost touch with its customers.
tbf, I think people should be able to rail 2kNL+, or whatever the highest stake being played at the time is. It's a reasonably big pull IMO.

Would be perfectly happy with a Unibet-esque model of being placed onto random tables for reg tables, or at least not being able to see who's on what tables in the lobby.

I also think open-sitting a 6-max table then denying HU action, but staying sitting out at the table should be against the rules at 100, possibly 50 (I think this is the essence of what KotH enforces?).
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Old 07-04-2015, 10:28 PM   #2058
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by ArtyMcFly View Post
I sighed.
10: fun fact
20: (amaya)stars is about a competent to solve these issues as NVG
30: goto 10
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Old 07-05-2015, 05:14 AM   #2059
bayoudonk
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

until Poker stars sof
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Old 07-05-2015, 05:17 AM   #2060
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

until poker stars sw bans all huds and data mining, brian hasting colluders, etc. and seat scripting.. any US state should ban them. any player on this cheating site should withdrawl all funds.
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Old 07-05-2015, 05:22 AM   #2061
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

poker cheats pays soccer stars and tv bluffing pros who ran good to attract recreational player to deposit money to that site.


then if you own a bot, or a cheating ring, your welcome also. show me a list of exposed cheaters PS has caught. Players who have been cheated might know,
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Old 07-05-2015, 05:27 AM   #2062
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

You can usually spot bad poker players by the way they post here: everything is very clear to them, BAN this, BAN than, BAN everything.

This translates to "BAN BAN BAN everything because I can't f***** win, dammit!!!".

If you don't understand that the major market leader(Stars) can't just ban things just like that, then you simply are not too smart.
About data mining at least stars did something to stop PTR, as far as I know the others sites still appear on PTR. Sure, another PTR appeared and whatever but it's still more than what the other sites did.

And you aren't helping your cause by being so hysterical, you make it seem like the ppl who want the software to be limited to a certain degree are just the frustrated losing players that can't adapt to them.

I am pro limiting software if they cross a certain line and I tried to give arguments on where I think the line should be drawn, just like other posters tried to do here as well.
But it's hard for Stars reps to take this thread seriously because of cry baby posts.
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Old 07-05-2015, 05:32 AM   #2063
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Nice generalisation
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Old 07-05-2015, 05:39 AM   #2064
heathen1
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by JonIrenicus View Post
You can usually spot bad poker players by the way they post here: everything is very clear to them, BAN this, BAN than, BAN everything.

This translates to "BAN BAN BAN everything because I can't f***** win, dammit!!!".

If you don't understand that the major market leader(Stars) can't just ban things just like that, then you simply are not too smart.
About data mining at least stars did something to stop PTR, as far as I know the others sites still appear on PTR. Sure, another PTR appeared and whatever but it's still more than what the other sites did.

And you aren't helping your cause by being so hysterical, you make it seem like the ppl who want the software to be limited to a certain degree are just the frustrated losing players that can't adapt to them.

I am pro limiting software if they cross a certain line and I tried to give arguments on where I think the line should be drawn, just like other posters tried to do here as well.
But it's hard for Stars reps to take this thread seriously because of cry baby posts.
Im a very good player, more than likely better than you, and I say ban it all.
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Old 07-05-2015, 06:47 AM   #2065
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by heathen1 View Post
Im a very good player, more than likely better than you, and I say ban it all.
Whenever you say something like this, you need to back it up, especially when most of your posts ITT have made you look quite thick tbh (not because of your opinions but the way you don't really back them up and can't seem to format posts in even a remotely decent manner).
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Old 07-05-2015, 07:19 AM   #2066
JonIrenicus
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by matteroftime View Post
Translation

All my horses use this tool and couldn't come close to being winners without these tools. If they are banned I am ****ed
Exactly the type of guy I was talking about. Has no idea about anything but he is 100% sure about everything.

Which tool? Skier? I am cash game player and the first time I heard about this was from this thread.

And if you mean cash game tools like notecaddy if you paid attention(but no need for attention since you KNOW 100%, no need to actually use the brain) you would see that I am pro-limiting the software use and I tried to give good reasons why this should happen.
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Old 07-05-2015, 07:31 AM   #2067
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by JonIrenicus View Post
But when you see a badge that shows you should 3bet someone because combining fold equity preflop+fold equity from his call and fold to a cbet would make it a profitable move that crosses the line.

What does an actual bot do assuming he doesn't click the button itself?
Tells you to call, raise, fold basically. And what badges and stats like that do is they tell
you the same thing.
You see this badge-> you fold, call or raise.
If it's a stat that shows you his fold to 3bet, his call 3bet and his fold to cbet on the flop then I would say that is acceptable, because you actually need to check 3 stats and combine them yourself then decide what is enough and what isn't.
But when a badge tells you YES/NO it acts too close to a bot. It is game advice, it tells you FOLD/CALL/RAISE in a clear way based on the badge there.

P.S: my example was for notecaddy since there has been a lot of discussion about it here but obviously all the other software that cross the line in the way mentioned above should not be allowed.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JonIrenicus View Post
in the longer run the software will get better and better and they will likely have to stop providing the HHs in real time and stop screen scraping as well. And maybe provide HHs after 24 hours for offline analysis but not allow anything during play.
I don't necessarily agree with that but I just don't see any other way around it, give HHs in real time and allow screen scraping = software can be made that is undetectable.
The reason for that is simply that they would leave too much room for abuse, it's not because live play doesn't allow programs and all that BS.
Just to clear things, this is a post of mine from a few pages ago where I clearly say I am against those tools.
The difference is that I don't yell "BAN ! BAN ! BAN !". I try to explain my stance and understand that it's a hard decision for stars.

But anyway I won't go on with the discussion since it's pointless anyway and the thread has be hijacked by ppl wanting to argue their frustrations and use personal attacks instead of arguments.
Gl at the tables, with or without tools :-)

Quote:
Originally Posted by sixfour View Post
Nice generalisation
not really, I only meant the guys that yell ban it or ban all. If you said "ban this because...a) b) c) d) e)" then I didn't mean you.

Last edited by JonIrenicus; 07-05-2015 at 07:38 AM.
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Old 07-05-2015, 08:22 AM   #2068
mme
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

notes to self:
- should quote my posts more often
- no one reads posts on the internet (mid line two is max attention you may get)
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Old 07-05-2015, 09:01 AM   #2069
V1p13
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Where is the answer from PokerStars? Week is almost gone
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Old 07-05-2015, 09:24 AM   #2070
PokerIvey
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

joking pokerstars?
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Old 07-05-2015, 04:32 PM   #2071
heathen1
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by TheDefiniteArticle View Post
Whenever you say something like this, you need to back it up, especially when most of your posts ITT have made you look quite thick tbh (not because of your opinions but the way you don't really back them up and can't seem to format posts in even a remotely decent manner).
Oh ,okay, so not wanting to waste my time typing makes me a bad poker player? gfy.... and the other clown who coaches prob only coaches cus he sucks(like most coaches) he can also gfh.

Was this post to your liking? Back what up btw? Should I start posting graphs or something? LOL @ YOU.
The software needs to go. You shortsighted nitwits can type till your fingers are sore, but that doesn't change the fact that you shortsighted nitwits have the common sense of field mice ,but can write like your Hemingway. Stars and all sites should have hm2/pt4 built in and all other forms of software should be banned.It doesn't take much explaining and typing, it's quite simple really.
No need to respond btw, I won't be engaging either one of you guy's, I said what I had to say.

Last edited by heathen1; 07-05-2015 at 04:42 PM.
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Old 07-05-2015, 07:55 PM   #2072
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Paranoia is a thought process believed to be heavily influenced by anxiety or fear, often to the point of irrationality and delusion.[1] Paranoid thinking typically includes persecutory beliefs, or beliefs of conspiracy concerning a perceived threat towards oneself (e.g. "Everyone is out to get me"). Paranoia is distinct from phobias, which also involve irrational fear, but usually no blame. Making false accusations and the general distrust of others also frequently accompany paranoia. For example, an incident most people would view as an accident or coincidence, a paranoid person might believe was intentional.
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Old 07-05-2015, 09:32 PM   #2073
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Paranoia is a thought process believed to be heavily influenced by anxiety or fear, often to the point of irrationality and delusion.[1] Paranoid thinking typically includes persecutory beliefs, or beliefs of conspiracy concerning a perceived threat towards oneself (e.g. "Everyone is out to get me"). Paranoia is distinct from phobias, which also involve irrational fear, but usually no blame. Making false accusations and the general distrust of others also frequently accompany paranoia. For example, an incident most people would view as an accident or coincidence, a paranoid person might believe was intentional.
Paranoia is when you think the world is out to get you.
Depression is when you find out you're right.
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Old 07-05-2015, 10:48 PM   #2074
MrJuliusDhelas
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Old 07-06-2015, 11:58 PM   #2075
PokerStars Steve
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

After thorough consideration of the input here and a lengthy internal discussion, we’ve decided to move forward in principle with the changes proposed in the OP. We still have some decisions to make regarding final wording and also to make sure we are comfortable with our detection and enforcement capability. In the meantime we will be in touch with some software developers regarding their existing applications to clarify which features might violate the upcoming rules so that they will have time to make the appropriate changes.

There is one immediate change to announce. The catalyst for this conversation was a particular piece of software that efficiently delivers relevant play recommendation charts for HUSNG. Effective immediately, we are ruling that this software can no longer be used while the PokerStars client is open.

In the past we had always allowed charts to be used for reference during play. A primary reason was that a player could simply print out a chart and we would not be able to detect it. Another was that the charts in use were limited in their impact on the game. Detailed charts that were complex enough to provide advice useful enough to be competitive against capable players were very limited in the breadth of situations covered, such as push-fold nash charts for HU play. Any charts covering the game more comprehensively, such as hand grouping charts with basic strategy, were not complex enough to cause an issue for game integrity.

This new software framework could be used to replicate the utility of a complex bot in a chart format. It has greatly advanced the efficiency of chart retrieval and presentation to the point where we must take action. While there will be challenges with enforcement, we believe the cost of leaving this software allowable is too high.

I want to make completely clear that we are headed firmly toward further restrictions on 3rd party software in the future. There is a meaningful probability that within the next year or two our policies will be significantly more restrictive than even the proposal in the OP. Our intent is to implement change gradually over time, ensuring that our internal detection and enforcement capabilities are able to keep up with the rules and that the community has adequate time to adjust.

I do not have anything to share about how far we might go in the future in our restriction of 3rd party software. We will continue to consider and evaluate additional information and input prior to making each and every decision.

Thanks to all who provided their thoughts and input on this topic.
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