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Old 07-03-2015, 05:29 AM   #2026
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by pies01 View Post
Ffs guys, can we focus on what matters - making Pokerstars accountable for finding cheats under the existing rules ie bots, colluders and hh scrapers.
we need HH scrapers to get the required data unless sites disclose all hand histories.
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Old 07-03-2015, 05:30 AM   #2027
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by pies01 View Post
Yes!
If it's collusion, it's ridic easy for pokerstars to identify
they did not identify.
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Old 07-03-2015, 06:43 AM   #2028
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by ArtyMcFly View Post
I happened to be looking at the current list of prohibited software yesterday, and was startled to see that "Jennifear" was listed. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Jennifear the name of a former player, and not of software?
Just about every winning tourney player has looked at the Jennifear push charts at some point. If the Jennifear charts are staying on the banned list, then you should probably ban people from having eyes in their heads.
They're on the list of stuff that may not be open when the software is actually running but allowed for post-game analysis or training.

If this does mean the charts then I find it hard to understand why they are not allowed but skier's charts are.
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Old 07-03-2015, 07:22 AM   #2029
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by LukeSilver View Post
i emailed stars asking why they have no comment here. They said they have given the ten days read the thread are now in discussion and will making an announcement early next week.

that means they are no longer reading this thread, so your inputs from this point on are pointless.
They initially said the response would be this week, hopefully that means they're actually discussing real changes.
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Old 07-03-2015, 07:24 AM   #2030
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

So, still no news on stars decision?
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Old 07-03-2015, 10:03 AM   #2031
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

where is the news?
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Old 07-03-2015, 12:19 PM   #2032
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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They initially said the response would be this week, hopefully that means they're actually discussing real changes.
They talked about doing something about seating scripts and that was 7-8 months ago. I e-mailed Stars about this and got:

Thank you for contacting us. Your email was escalated to me as a member of the PokerStars Game Integrity Team.

Seating scripts are typically permitted provided that they do not identify desirable tables using game information obtained outside the user's own play. As these software pieces are merely executing a series of commands, none of which involve any poker logic, the classification of these tools are similar to that of any other permitted macro or hotkey like program.

The Game Integrity Team is responsible for prohibiting third party programs that are deemed to offer an unfair advantage in gameplay. Seating scripts facilitate the game joining process but do not actually offer any advantage in gameplay itself. In any case, a prohibition on seating scripts does not solve the core concern of those who generally oppose such software, which is the behaviour itself, behaviour which is achievable without the use of seating scripts.

That said, we do understand the concerns you have raised. Our Poker Room Management Team closely monitors the environment of our cash game offerings. They make changes to our software client and game offerings in order to preserve the health of the poker ecosystem on our site.

I trust that this clarifies our position. We thank you for taking the time to write to us with your concerns. If you have any other enquiries, please let us know. Best of luck at the tables!

Regards,


---------

So has Stars given up on sorting ring games?
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Old 07-03-2015, 02:17 PM   #2033
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/28...stars-1543880/

just in case someone missed it: massive data mining in spingos. can't wait for the spingo cheaters itt to comment.
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Old 07-03-2015, 03:03 PM   #2034
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by JonIrenicus View Post
Even though I agree with limiting software use, the argument above is an argument for the opposite.
Stars is the biggest poker site by far, you want it to copy stuff from sites that have less than 1/10 their traffic?
No. I want Stars to stick with the status quo so that online poker dies as quickly as possible. /sarc
Bovada and Unibet are growing their customer bases by employing more rec-friendly policies. A stated aim of Unibet Poker (which is run by a former Stars employee) is to "keep new players alive for longer". I think it's no coincidence that Bovada and Unibet currently have the softest games among well known sites, whilst Stars has the toughest. For me, the only positive thing about Stars doing nothing is that I get to laugh at the regs that choose to keep playing there with lolbad winrates.
Stars is, of course, perfectly entitled to compete against the "recreational player model" used by other sites. The "Stars grinder model" certainly helped drive company growth for a decade, and Stars still has a monstrous lead on the field.
I don't know what kind of "churn rate" Stars has at the moment, but it appears the "grinder model" isn't working so well any more (as evinced by so many angry threads about the company) and it seems as if Stars has been very slow to change its culture. Huge monopolistic companies often suffer from a culture of complacency and the inability to react rapidly to changes in the industry. (FWIW, players are like this too. They are slow to realise when they are no longer beating a game, but are reluctant to do anything about it.)
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Originally Posted by TheDefiniteArticle View Post
"Some tables" is not an option unless there is a way for regs to multitable and to have software working on some tables but not others, and for Stars to ensure that this is the case. The second you ban software on 'some tables' on a single network, you effectively ban it on all tables.
This is not true. On MPN, 40% of the action is on anonymous tables. I'm pretty sure you can calculate that 60% is not. It's a small thing called "customer choice". Pokerstars in its infinite wisdom decided that players shouldn't have a choice between tables full of HUDbots and tables full of "fun players". The only choice for players is to quit the site or go busto. I chose the former, because I'm pretty good at making +EV decisions.
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So has Stars given up on sorting ring games?
It's not just ring games that are dying. To some extent, I think Stars itself started to die when Isai and Mark left the building.
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Old 07-03-2015, 03:18 PM   #2035
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

there are angry threads about big companies anywhere, the tiny ones nobody really cares about, it's like they don't exist. The bigger you are the more haters you have.
With a crappy software like the others have it makes sense to have a weaker player base.
And anonymous poker wouldn't a good idea imo anyway, I don't think that is the way to go.
Again, we want the same thing, I just don't like the reasons for that "bc 2 sites with a few players did this".
Want them to charge commissions for withdrawals just because Party did it too?
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Old 07-03-2015, 03:25 PM   #2036
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

People cry about harmless software

Now that they found out bots + datamining maybe they understand
the real PRIORITIES

(or maybe they will never understand)
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Old 07-03-2015, 03:46 PM   #2037
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

priority is fixing the game. we'll know the game has been fixed when as a side effect PT, PTR, *wiz goes down.
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Old 07-03-2015, 04:55 PM   #2038
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtyMcFly View Post
This is not true. On MPN, 40% of the action is on anonymous tables. I'm pretty sure you can calculate that 60% is not. It's a small thing called "customer choice". Pokerstars in its infinite wisdom decided that players shouldn't have a choice between tables full of HUDbots and tables full of "fun players". The only choice for players is to quit the site or go busto. I chose the former, because I'm pretty good at making +EV decisions.
Okay, I'm sorry, that's true. It's possible insofar as the 'no software' tables are anonymous, so the factor preventing the use of software is due to the format of the game rather than technical constraints.
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Old 07-03-2015, 05:00 PM   #2039
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by mme View Post
https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/28...stars-1543880/

just in case someone missed it: massive data mining in spingos. can't wait for the spingo cheaters itt to comment.
This need to stop. Aswell as SpinWiz. I once wrote Stars inside links to HU Hyper cartell stuff and they said they take a look at it. Their reply was that those cartels don't do anything against the rules. (They do have a huge advantage in sharing fish and dont play against each other, but hey, who cares) Thanks Sharkystrator.

SpinWiz is even worse. Spin&Gos do not have a visible lobby like other games do. It makes the impression of being randomly created games with random opponents. You dont know whats going on in the back ground. And no fish and I bet even some regs dont know they are not.

And then theres a program that allows you to not play certain players in a lottery game. (e.g. waitlist) People who use it are just the lowest, srsly. I can only vomit because Stars is doing nothing against that.

Last edited by alternative 3; 07-03-2015 at 05:10 PM.
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Old 07-03-2015, 05:09 PM   #2040
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

FU Stars =) Just cashed out my 11$ not because I need the money (it sits around for half a year in my cashier) it's because I don't want to even pay one cent rake to such a company. HF all you androids
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Old 07-03-2015, 05:24 PM   #2041
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by mme View Post
https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/28...stars-1543880/

just in case someone missed it: massive data mining in spingos. can't wait for the spingo cheaters itt to comment.
Disgusting.
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Old 07-03-2015, 05:30 PM   #2042
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by centgas View Post
They talked about doing something about seating scripts and that was 7-8 months ago. I e-mailed Stars about this and got:

Thank you for contacting us. Your email was escalated to me as a member of the PokerStars Game Integrity Team.

Seating scripts are typically permitted provided that they do not identify desirable tables using game information obtained outside the user's own play. As these software pieces are merely executing a series of commands, none of which involve any poker logic, the classification of these tools are similar to that of any other permitted macro or hotkey like program.

The Game Integrity Team is responsible for prohibiting third party programs that are deemed to offer an unfair advantage in gameplay. Seating scripts facilitate the game joining process but do not actually offer any advantage in gameplay itself. In any case, a prohibition on seating scripts does not solve the core concern of those who generally oppose such software, which is the behaviour itself, behaviour which is achievable without the use of seating scripts.

That said, we do understand the concerns you have raised. Our Poker Room Management Team closely monitors the environment of our cash game offerings. They make changes to our software client and game offerings in order to preserve the health of the poker ecosystem on our site.

I trust that this clarifies our position. We thank you for taking the time to write to us with your concerns. If you have any other enquiries, please let us know. Best of luck at the tables!

Regards,


---------

So has Stars given up on sorting ring games?
Their attitude is a bit bizarre, the software rules were written when huds were one or two lines and seating scripts weren't in use (at least not publicly). As software advances the rules have to be updated at the same pace. A ban on seating scripts might not reduce the "behaviour" but you still have to try to combat it. That's like saying they won't take action against bots/colluders because "they'll just open more accounts". Any situation where money is involved you'll always get people breaking/bending the rules to their own gain, it doesn't mean you give up and let them do whatever they want.
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Old 07-03-2015, 06:24 PM   #2043
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by mme View Post
https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/28...stars-1543880/

just in case someone missed it: massive data mining in spingos. can't wait for the spingo cheaters itt to comment.
I think you may be referring to me as a spin cheater because I want equality in rules relating to seat selection software.

As stated previously, if stars allows HHs to be collected during a session, then people will build programs that can download HHs for sharing.

This situation was even more obvious because in Spinsn you can see the amount of people viewing a game so it was clear that something like this was happening - there were posts in threads and emails to pokerstars.

So yet again, Pokerstars have shown a complete inability to enforce their current rules in an effective manner yet are considering introducing a rule limiting the amount of charts people can look at

Pokerstars integrity team need to become more accountable because confidence in their ability to effectively police the game is at an all time low.

Maybe they should start publishing the amount of cheaters they have caught per month
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Old 07-03-2015, 07:24 PM   #2044
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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priority is fixing the game. we'll know the game has been fixed when as a side effect PT, PTR, *wiz goes down.
yeah , after we will have santa claus and cindelera dancing and holding hands
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Old 07-03-2015, 09:50 PM   #2045
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by pies01 View Post
I think you may be referring to me as a spin cheater because I want equality in rules relating to seat selection software.

As stated previously, if stars allows HHs to be collected during a session, then people will build programs that can download HHs for sharing.

This situation was even more obvious because in Spinsn you can see the amount of people viewing a game so it was clear that something like this was happening - there were posts in threads and emails to pokerstars.

So yet again, Pokerstars have shown a complete inability to enforce their current rules in an effective manner yet are considering introducing a rule limiting the amount of charts people can look at

Pokerstars integrity team need to become more accountable because confidence in their ability to effectively police the game is at an all time low.

Maybe they should start publishing the amount of cheaters they have caught per month
first insightful post of you guys on page 137? tell your minion master chicagory to come here, i can not take any of this for serious unless he starts posting non-nonsense here.
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Old 07-04-2015, 12:54 AM   #2046
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Dude

Do u like DVDs ? or u do prefer cassetes ? i mean even with cassetes...

maybe u prefer vinyl ?

Audio software companies , VIDEO software companies are constantly pirated
they invest in dongles ,usb pens pay millions to security companies and then


4 months later its craked by some 15 yer old in india or russia


Dude wake up , and tell me the truth

U NEVER PIRATED ANYTHING ? MP3 ? VIDEOS ??

Oh u did naughty boy ...so u also take advantage of the flaws u can find in this digital world




im just like the message is so easy and clear , so bvious

Stars cannot do miracles , the clien has to be open , they will invest millions and some 1 somehere will be able to do it ,

NASA IS HACKED !!!
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Old 07-04-2015, 01:06 AM   #2047
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

What about if you faced being banned for life from watching a movie made in hollywood? Would you still pirate the movie? Obv I know this is impossible ,and far fetched, im just using it as an example. Just changing the t&c would deter 80%+ people from using the software that is on the ban list.Then stars could catch a small %and ud really just have a tiny number of people using banned software.
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Old 07-04-2015, 03:04 AM   #2048
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by pies01 View Post
.
So yet again, Pokerstars have shown a complete inability to enforce their current rules in an effective manner yet are considering introducing a rule limiting the amount of charts people can look at
I'm anxiously awaiting their finalized version of the amended 3rd party rules and desperately hoping that they have at least come to their senses on introducing "new" rules in an attempt to limit the use of in game "chart "software. A rule in an effort to ban or limit the amount or use of in game "charts" is the least enforceable rule they could make in this situation. If the only changes in the terms or even the majority of the changes in the terms are aimed towards limiting "chart" software I'm gong to be very disappointed with their effort in this case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by matteroftime View Post
Pokerstars says

The fundamental problem is that the games can be observed. Anybody can load up a PokerStars client and observe a game in progress, and see the game play as it goes. They can also view the hand history immediately after the hand, in the "Instant Hand History" window.
Allowing observers to view the games prior to their play is a fundamental feature of the software that cannot be removed. Players like being able to tell their friends "hey, come sweat me on table so-and-so, I'm winning big!".

Once the data appears on a remote player's screen, however, it's completely out of our control. If it's being displayed on a remote screen, it *can* be gathered by a determined collector, no matter what restrictions we put in place...and we do have many such restrictions in place. This is the same challenge that Hollywood studios are facing: any data sent to a PC can be recorded, and Hollywood is collectively spending billions of dollars and trying to develop new protected hardware paths to stop people pirating video and audio.
Ask them why they make is so easy for observers to garner the hand histories via the Instant hand history screen and also why this support staff is quoted at saying "we do put many restrictions in place" where it has already been pointed out numerous times in this thread alone just how easy it is copy these hand histories and mine them as an observer.

After that ask them what is more important; That John can tell his friend, "Hey come sweat me, I'm winning big!" or that John isn't relentlessly targeted and preyed upon by predatory data mining, seat scripting, bot utilizing opponents, etc.

Get your sh*t together PokerStars and stop acting like we are in 2006. This stuff exists and it's doing a lot of damage to the ecosystem. Start protecting your players more even if the cost is players losing some conveniences of the past.
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Old 07-04-2015, 03:28 AM   #2049
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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I couldn't be bothered anymore. With all I have seen from the industry and from them online poker is about done. They are so compartmentalized anyways you need to throw spears through the ignorance of first support to even get someone to give a candid answer. That took 10 emails on the issue to even get that from them when whoever was answering previously first wouldn;t signature the response so no clue who was responding, than just poking fun like the whole concept of what I was reporting had never taken place before.

This industry is so far from reality compared to other legitimate industries it is absolutely incredible. If I suspected fraudulent activities on a credit card or banking account there would be instant action. Not my bank responding to me like I am seeing apparitions. Let alone making videos and having spokes people reciting how clean and safe everything is. Things are so disjointed and far from realities here its crazy. There is either a big cover up or they are so technologically outmatched by these cheats that they will keep denying anything is occurring until literally they implode.At the same time you can't really admit what you can't detect. That said, when there are observers watching EVERY game for months and months that is an invasion of my privacy and leading to a severely unfair advantage. When they are denying it is happening in the first 9 inquiries and than fully admitting it in the 10th, that is a clandestine company being as non transparent as possible.
It's funny the similarity between what I'm reading here and what's happening in the financial markets. all the largest banks use high frequency trading algorithms that front run customers orders my milliseconds to garentee profits for there users (alongside flash crashes). This has crushed market liquidity and made them for all intensive purpose a bot war that has killed none institution trading. Seems like poker is going that way too.
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Old 07-04-2015, 03:44 AM   #2050
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Also, maybe someone could answer me this question. PokerStars seems so worried that Player A can still tell his friend, "Hey come rail me, I'm winning big." Why not introduce some sort of "invite" feature into the client rather than "search" or "find" player, or "find" tourney ID. How hard would this be to create in the client?

Is it possible that they could make all tables unobservable to anyone not in the game but have it as "invite only" so a player not in the game has to be first invited to be an observer by a player currently playing in that game? They would be able to monitor this a bit more and would have access to everyone watching every game rather than the way it is right now where I can be completely logged out of the client yet click on a table and, watch the game and get the "Instant Hand History".......lol
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