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Old 07-02-2015, 10:57 AM   #2001
pies01
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Is spinwiz evil because it allows regs to sit unknown players (who have bought the software) ? Or is it because spinwiz allows you to sit in the same game as fellow colluding reg?
You can't have it both ways. Or can you?
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Old 07-02-2015, 10:59 AM   #2002
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

And if it's about sitting in the same game as a fellow colluding reg, why doesn't anyone give a **** about that in any other game type that is 10x times easier to sit in the same game and collude with less rake and not winner take all?
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Old 07-02-2015, 11:02 AM   #2003
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

As I said, consistency is key.
You are either "for" advanced software or "against" it.
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Old 07-02-2015, 12:24 PM   #2004
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

ppl who don't play spins are overestimating how often ppl deliberately sit with each other to gain from a 3rd player.

This happens much less in spins in fact than in other sng formats due to how bad the risk/reward is.

It's just -ev compared to "open sitting" spinwiz (assuming both you and your friend are good regs).

And if 2 "terrible" players who try to play 60s together tried this- firstly it's very easy to detect for Stars, and secondly they would be targeted by all other regs (being "terrible" players for the stake), and the 3rd player in their games would most likely be a spinwiz user (reg) as well.

I don't get how what spinwiz does can be classified as collusion. I would just say that it's a seating script.

Spins seating is also not random (up to 5 seconds or so). You can effect it by regging at different times to your friends. Again, if you ban the current spinwiz, ppl will make their own software to avoid each other and those groups will grow to eventually be something equivalent to spinwiz again.
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Old 07-02-2015, 01:43 PM   #2005
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by pies01 View Post
And if it's about sitting in the same game as a fellow colluding reg, why doesn't anyone give a **** about that in any other game type that is 10x times easier to sit in the same game and collude with less rake and not winner take all?
Should I assume that in your questions you forget to add a disclaimer that you created a software which we are talking about or you just happen to be very attached to it without a direct interest in your relationship?

It may help to add more value to the discussion if you add disclaimers if its the former.

As for your points, if you have several problems with bad teeth and one of them is particularly bad, its ok to fix the worst tooth first and then decide what to do with the other problems after it.

It's not all or nothing as you try to make it.

And if you didn't hear the advertisements, Spin & Go's are supposed to be random and they, unlike traditional poker tables, do not offer seat preferences to any players.
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Old 07-02-2015, 02:23 PM   #2006
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

He isn't associated with spinwiz (neither am I).

Perhaps it's wrong of stars to advertise spins as random seating (it depends what you mean by random tho).

What would you say happens at highstakes zoom lobbies? Zoom is advertised as random, but they don't run unless there is a fish. Zoom hu lobbies even more so. These function basically in the same way as normal HU lobbies at higher stakes.

Like spins lobbies- this is not random seating in reality. Choosing when you register spins will change the likelihood of you meeting someone else. Spinwiz does what everyone with a friend who plays the same games does, but on a bigger scale.
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Old 07-02-2015, 02:26 PM   #2007
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Also it seems that spins registration already operate with a bit of the zoom pool idea timbiscuit brought up.

In intervals of 5-10 seconds (I haven't played at low traffic times tbh) you will be registered in games. So presumably stars groups all those registering within like a 5 second timeframe and seats those people together randomly.
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Old 07-02-2015, 05:06 PM   #2008
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by TimTamBiscuit View Post
With respect I don't think you understand the concept of separation of duties in a corporate. The intent of separation of duties procedures is that no one person understands the whole procedure in order to try to prevent the planning of fraud and roles are divided such that multiple people would need to collude for fraud to occur and that checks and balances would catch them as elegantly as possible. The more money involved the more extreme the procedures.

The point of my racism etc examples (not analogies) is that human nature has a history of plumbing the darkest depths of collusion when given the opportunity to advantage a subgroup over a level-playing field and then perpetuating that advantage for as long as possible including until the current day.

We would be nave in the extreme if we thought poker cartels were lily white meritocracies.

PokerStars is nave in the extreme for allowing group-based AKA collusive seat-scripting to create and perpetuate potentially collusive cartels/divisions. If exposed widely to recs they will suffer major PR damage that will force them to ban them so they should pre-emptively act now to ban so they can spin the situation to their advantage before the s**t hits the fan.
This has to be a joke? AIG, Author Anderson, Enron, Leman Brothers, LTCM, ring a bell? LIBOR scandal. HSBC a month ago. Perhaps you don't understand how the game is really played.

What about high frequency algorithms that all of the firms use that front run customers trades? The list is endless and the analogy with poker is apt.

Your corporate world examples only illustrate that collusion is a standard operating procedure and that we shouldn't be surprised when we see it elsewhere.
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Old 07-02-2015, 05:17 PM   #2009
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

rec players avoiding internet poker because of the software

http://www.pokerupdate.com/news/poke...-online-poker/
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Old 07-02-2015, 05:56 PM   #2010
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by TimTamBiscuit View Post
What does everyone think of the following proposal:

* Ban all third-party software when the Pokerstars client is open.
If the proposal finished there, I'd be happy to go back to playing on Stars.
There's no need for complicated and expensive "solutions" like having a HUD built in to the client. The solution - if you can call a band aid a solution - is to have at least some tables where the use of any software that interacts with the client or hand histories is prohibited.
Other sites are doing this. Stars is not, and has so far shown no inclination that it will.
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Old 07-02-2015, 06:44 PM   #2011
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Other sites are doing this. Stars is not, and has so far shown no inclination that it will.
Even though I agree with limiting software use, the argument above is an argument for the opposite.
Stars is the biggest poker site by far, you want it to copy stuff from sites that have less than 1/10 their traffic?
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Old 07-02-2015, 07:10 PM   #2012
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by ArtyMcFly View Post
If the proposal finished there, I'd be happy to go back to playing on Stars.
There's no need for complicated and expensive "solutions" like having a HUD built in to the client. The solution - if you can call a band aid a solution - is to have at least some tables where the use of any software that interacts with the client or hand histories is prohibited.
Other sites are doing this. Stars is not, and has so far shown no inclination that it will.
"Some tables" is not an option unless there is a way for regs to multitable and to have software working on some tables but not others, and for Stars to ensure that this is the case. The second you ban software on 'some tables' on a single network, you effectively ban it on all tables.
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Old 07-02-2015, 08:04 PM   #2013
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by Dreamstrike13 View Post
Your corporate world examples only illustrate that collusion is a standard operating procedure and that we shouldn't be surprised when we see it elsewhere.
That's exactly what I was saying: collusion is something humans do when given half a chance so Pokerstars needs to actively prevent it (by designing their software to prevent it and banning third party software) instead of as today wasting their investigative resources trying to find collusion after the horse has bolted through the open gate Pokerstars naivety has left wide open.
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Old 07-02-2015, 08:15 PM   #2014
pies01
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by Q View Post
Should I assume that in your questions you forget to add a disclaimer that you created a software which we are talking about or you just happen to be very attached to it without a direct interest in your relationship?

It may help to add more value to the discussion if you add disclaimers if its the former.

As for your points, if you have several problems with bad teeth and one of them is particularly bad, its ok to fix the worst tooth first and then decide what to do with the other problems after it.

It's not all or nothing as you try to make it.

And if you didn't hear the advertisements, Spin & Go's are supposed to be random and they, unlike traditional poker tables, do not offer seat preferences to any players.
No I'm not associated with spin wiz except that I use it when playing spins (last month about 10% of my volume). Afaik, the use of the word "random" in spins, refers to prize pool not opponents (where the focus is on instant action).

I post in this thread when I see someone favouring 1 software type over another through their passionate but illogical reasons.

There are a few key categories of software (some of which can be used in multiple categories)
- Huds
- seating scripts
- HH (release during game or after Game)
- preflop charts/voice activation
- post flop advice during the hand aka bots

Any rule changes need to be fair across these categories and enforceable.
So ban seating scripts for all games including cash or none (btw, given the high rake and the anti bumhunting culture of HUSNGs, these scripts are far more defensible in husngs than cash games but I digress)
Ban all Huds or allow all.
Ban all HHs during a session or allow all (and in doing so allow data mining)
Ban all charts or none (that rule would be the most a abused via an app/2nd computer)
Ban all Software or none.

Keep in mind that if Pokerstars bans all software, apart from it being a high risk move from the dominant market leader, that means no browsing the net while waiting for a good hand, no music playing on iTunes) etc so I'm not sure if that is the sure fire way to bring back recs that quite a few people in this thread seem to believe.


So what should pokerstars do? Part of this will depend on their trajectory for tournaments and cash (what is their volume yoy when stripping out banned countries).
Should they make a high risk move that will likely create a whole bunch of unintended consequences and a real likelihood of reduced revenue or should they just focus on bots. It doesn't actually seem like a tough choice.
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Old 07-02-2015, 11:40 PM   #2015
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by TimTamBiscuit View Post
That's exactly what I was saying: collusion is something humans do when given half a chance so Pokerstars needs to actively prevent it (by designing their software to prevent it and banning third party software) instead of as today wasting their investigative resources trying to find collusion after the horse has bolted through the open gate Pokerstars naivety has left wide open.
Yes mate, and what I'm saying basis that list (which could go for pages) is that in the corporate world there is not this mythical rigorous standards you alluded to. The risk departments are either implicitly or explicitly involved, or are fed **** and kept in the dark.

PS will only implement change if it has an impact on their ability to generate $. As they have a near monopoly on the market I see little chance of this happening unless they get some extremely bad press which is unlikely as they dominate that too indirectly via advertising.
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Old 07-03-2015, 03:24 AM   #2016
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

i emailed stars asking why they have no comment here. They said they have given the ten days read the thread are now in discussion and will making an announcement early next week.

that means they are no longer reading this thread, so your inputs from this point on are pointless.
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Old 07-03-2015, 03:25 AM   #2017
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

hmm fixing tourney lobbies seems rather easy, pool players + reenter pool delay as mentioned itt sounds good. fix for cash game with anonymous + full disclose of HHs sounds like a good fix as well.

this leaves "players playing to well" as task. some handicap mechanism? either accept handicap or move up?

in the end it should be: no ban on software. run whatever you like. fix the game instead.
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Old 07-03-2015, 03:53 AM   #2018
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

not thinking this through, just throwing out (to hot outside to think, melting away)

- measure winrate over x hands
- gets two numbers: total, steadiness
- this gets the handicap of each player
- move chips from player with higher handicap to lower


what would this optimize to?


thoughts:

- fixing loopholes / creating a game is not about politics, its about technical creativity

- whatever stats you take into account is the rules of the game you create. poker is a numbers game, so feel free to be creative as long as its transparent and very easy to grasp.
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Old 07-03-2015, 04:29 AM   #2019
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by pies01 View Post
Any rule changes need to be fair across these categories and enforceable.
So ban seating scripts for all games including cash or none (btw, given the high rake and the anti bumhunting culture of HUSNGs, these scripts are far more defensible in husngs than cash games but I digress)
Ban all Huds or allow all.
Ban all HHs during a session or allow all (and in doing so allow data mining)
Ban all charts or none (that rule would be the most a abused via an app/2nd computer)
Ban all Software or none.
Execute all criminals or let them all go free. Execute mass-murderers and pickpockets alike or let them all go free. Yep, seems fair.
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Old 07-03-2015, 04:36 AM   #2020
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by pies01 View Post
Is spinwiz evil because it allows regs to sit unknown players (who have bought the software) ? Or is it because spinwiz allows you to sit in the same game as fellow colluding reg?
You can't have it both ways. Or can you?
The software has it both (all) ways.

At times of high rec traffic then use the software to seat two non SpinWiz users.

At times of lower rec traffic then use the collusion tool to speed your game selection and share the one rec with your colluding reg team mate.

At times of even lower rec traffic, shift to sniper mode and your colluding mate pretending to be a non SpinWiz user to collude against a weaker Spin Wiz user.

Meanwhile under all modes have a refuse to seat list to try and filter out good players sitting you.

For me - none of these modes seem "fair and open" for a product like Spin & Gos marketed as a random seat game to the recs. Now if you want to say which mode is morally OK then I suggest you start with the feature of I don't want to play against X feature, that comes closest to a decent tool - and to make that "fair and open" I suggest building it in to the client so all recs can list players they don't want to meet at the tables!

Imagine the row, recs being able to protect themselves from regs. Never gonna catch on in this forum. Not likely to win much 2+2 support, I wonder why.
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Old 07-03-2015, 04:55 AM   #2021
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

however one may want to exploit lobby loopholes. i wonder why cheaters continue to ague here, being in the spotlight just makes them look worse with every post.

hint for sites dabbling with ideas:
don't market rec friendly. what you want to create and market is fair-game(R). wonder why party got this so wrong last time around.
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Old 07-03-2015, 05:16 AM   #2022
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by matteroftime View Post
I was sat at a 60$ spin by two players from Belarus who played no hands past the flop against each other.
Winder which mode they used so I was unrandomly randomly sat against two players from Belarus.

Way to protect me Pokerstars. 4 billion in debt you cant afford to
Police your ****ing games
you can report the game ID and have it checked...
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Old 07-03-2015, 05:22 AM   #2023
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by sanko33 View Post
you can report the game ID and have it checked...
old wisdom says: they report (at most) once and when nothing happens they never report again.


Quote:
Originally Posted by matteroftime View Post
I was sat at a 60$ spin by two players from Belarus who played no hands past the flop against each other.
Winder which mode they used so I was unrandomly randomly sat against two players from Belarus.

Way to protect me Pokerstars. 4 billion in debt you cant afford to
Police your ****ing games
to slaughter another holy cow. collusion being +EV is a bug not a feature. time for HUD and HH sellers to put on a white hat and prove or disprove. suggested fix is handicap mechanism.
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Old 07-03-2015, 05:25 AM   #2024
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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Originally Posted by Richas View Post

Imagine the row, recs being able to protect themselves from regs. Never gonna catch on in this forum. Not likely to win much 2+2 support, I wonder why.
Weak players bring able to protect themselves - sounds perfect for bumhunters and a great way to destroy the game.

I just repeatedly get surprised at this collusive conspiracy talk that people bring up where supposedly a bunch of regs are willing to risk their access to recreational players by
1) choosing to sit another reg
2) soft playing vs that reg
in a winner take all, super high rake game (7% rake if you take out the the top few prize pools which spin up 16 in 100,000 times) in a game where the best players achieve a 37-38% ev roi

Ffs guys, can we focus on what matters - making Pokerstars accountable for finding cheats under the existing rules ie bots, colluders and hh scrapers.
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Old 07-03-2015, 05:28 AM   #2025
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Re: 3rd Party Software on PokerStars: Proposed Rule Changes

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you can report the game ID and have it checked...
Yes!
If it's collusion, it's ridic easy for pokerstars to identify
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